Redd on the block?

[waffle]

I dislike Redd. I think he's o.k., just not special. I put him in the OVERRATED bucket.

About the only thing I would consider is a dump including Wallace (whom I still like a little) or Joe Smith and trash (is it feasible???).. Otherwise... snore.

[step]

This sort of sucks, why couldn't they have come to this decision when the Kobe saga was around, would of created some interesting 3 way trade scenarios.

[ikeziskash]

I still like Redd and think this would be a good deal if done smartly. If a Nocioni/Thabo type package or Gordon+ just seems like a good deal to the Bulls.

[step]

So another boring night shift at work leads me to play around with trade scenarios.

Trade ID #4388737

Chicago
Incoming:Navarro, Gay, Gasol, Ivey, Noel
Outgoing:Khryapa, Duhon, Deng, Thomas, Nocioni

Milwaukee
Incoming:Khryapa, Duhon, Nocioni, Miller
Outgoing:Redd, Mason, Ivey, Noel

Memphis
Incoming: Deng, Thomas, Redd, Mason
Outgoing:Gasol, Gay, Navarro and Miller.

What the teams look like after the move:

Chicago
Hinrich, Navarro, Ivey
Gordon, Curry, Nichols
Gay, Sefolosha, Griffin, Noel
Gasol, Smith
Wallace, Noah, Gray

Milwaukee
Williams, Duhon, Sessions
Miller, Bell, Storey
Nocioni, Simmons, Khryapa
Jianlian, Villanueva, Ruffin
Bogut, Voskuhl, Gadzuric

Memphis
Conley, Lowry, Stoudamire
Redd, Richardson
Deng, Jacobsen
Thomas, Swift, Warrick, Cardinal
Milicic, Brown

Deng will more than likely need to be included to get Memphis to consider moving Gasol.

Oh and our pick would go to Milwaukee.

[ptpablo]

Jumped in real late but must say I do not want Redd at his salary and game. We need a big guard that is physical and can handle the ball a bit.

[Red Larrivee]

But why would Memphis give up Gay, Gasol, and Navarro? 3 of their 4 best players? While we get to keep 2 of our 4 best?

[step]

But why would Memphis give up Gay, Gasol, and Navarro? 3 of their 4 best players?

I have Navarro tied in with Gasol as he was the reason why Memphis went after him and I can't see why they'd truly want him after he leaves. Though I couldn't care about Navarro to be honest, he can easily be taken out of the deal though they might as well move him as he won't resign with them if Gasol isn't there.

I thought the overall the trade was fair to Memphis. The way I see it is basically Redd in exchange for Gasol, who's value is not as high as last summer due to his less than stellar play. Deng (who is someone they obviously value alot) in exchange for Gay. Tyrus in exchange for the surplus Miller, who wouldn't be required due to having Deng and Redd occupying his positions.

[Simulack]

About the only thing I would consider is a dump including Wallace (whom I still like a little) or Joe Smith and trash (is it feasible???).. Otherwise... snore.

Milwaukee
Incoming:Khryapa, Duhon, Nocioni, Miller
Outgoing:Redd, Mason, Ivey, Noel

[

Pretty decent trade for the Bucks, step. I'd rather have Miller and Nocioni at 8 million or so each than Redd at 16. Considering you added a pick in there, this would be fair value for Redd.

Not a very plausible trade all-around though particularly on the Grizzlies end.

[Wingy]

Redd...contract...BAD...and will get worse by the year.

No freaking way.

[SuburbanOasis]

Memphis would not trade their best 4 players (Navarro, Gay, Gasol, Miller) for Deng/Thomas/Redd/Mason.

Gasol/Miller... possible
Navarro/Gay... possible

BUT those guys won't be packaged together. That is like trading the future and current success of your team away in the same trade. Navarro may be added in to deals because he only has a 1 year contract and they have Lowry and Conley who both will probably be competing in the long run for the pg job.

[step]

Not a very plausible trade all-around though particularly on the Grizzlies end.

Yeah I know, while I do believe it's fair value, I do admit it probably isn't enough to get them to the table. Not until Gasol makes more of a ruckus.

I could remove Navarro quite easily and the deal becomes more appealing, I just don't see the point for Memphis to try and keep him. He isn't even one of their top 4 players on the team either.

[SuburbanOasis]

He's 4th in points and 5th in assists, plays the 6th most minutes on their team.

Not to mention he shoots the 2nd highest 3pt percent and is 2nd (for all intents and purposes) in adjusted FG%.

Not to mention he plays PG.. which in a running style offense is one of the most important positions on the floor (more so than in a Bulls-type offense at least).

He isn't the best player in the world, but he is certainly one of their top 4 players. Not that that says anything special about him since he plays for the Grizzlies.

[dougthonus]

If we get Redd the deal would be something like:

Ben Gordon + Andreas Nocioni + Salary filler for Michael Redd.

The reason is that Nocioni + Gordon combine to come near Redd's salary over the next 4 years, so it opens up the salary hole to make the move work in our salary structure.

Is that too much to give up for Redd? Maybe, but Redd is better than Gordon even if he has similar flaws. Nocioni is energetic, but he's one of the guys who's making it hard for us to keep a consistent rotation because he's taking minutes away from other guys while not providing real size of a big man.

I'm not saying I'd run out and do this deal, but I think if the Bulls did a deal that it would be something somewhat realistic in that Redd upgrades the talent in our backcourt in this deal while fitting his salary into our long term picture.

[SuburbanOasis]

I wouldn't give that up for Redd. He is better than Gordon now, but he is also 4 years older.

He has a little bit better size and gets to the line more, but other than that their stats are probably going to be fairly similar. Gordon's free throw attempts will likely increase as he has been in the league longer as well.

As much as lots of people don't like Noce he is exactly the type of player that is needed for a smaller rotation. In order to knock a rotation down to an 8 or 9 man group you have to have players that can play multiple positions. Noce may not be an ideal 4, but he is certainly effective there. Our 2/3 situation doesn't have players that can switch back and fourth, but our 1/2 and 3/4 do. While these players may give something up when they move to a bigger position, they also cause matchup problems for other teams as well.

For instance:
Can Channing Frye guard Noce at the 3pt line? Nope.

It would be nice to upgrade the size in our starting frontcourt, but Noce off the bench is a great player to have. I think he is one of the guys who makes it easy for our team to have a consistent rotation because he is capable of playing multiple positions which allows for Boylan to shorten his rotation.

Guys like Thomas cause the biggest problems in making a rotation. He is a tweener who doesn't have a developed game and can really only play 1 position. That is why he is trapped on the bench. He offers the Bulls 0 flexibility in using him. Meaning he has to beat out everyone ahead of him with his play as apposed to using versatility as a tie breaker. It's much harder to work those guys into a rotation than it is to work a guy like Noce in.

[bre9]

Redd is a great shooter but he plays no defense and he has big contract. I think the bulls just need to fill their biggest hole and that's no front court scorer.

[dougthonus]

I wouldn't be jumping up and down to trade that for Redd either. Particularly given his contract.

However, I disagree a bit about the difference you see in Gordon vs Redd. Redd's PER vs AGE:
22 - 20
23 - 21
24 - 20
25 - 18.3
26 - 21.2
27 - 22.3
28 - 22.8 (82games.com this year)

Gordon's is:
21 - 14.9
22 - 14.5
23 - 18.2
24 - 16 (82games.com this year)

This numbers show Redd being quite a bit further along at the same age as Gordon, and quite a bit better overall. Moreover, you have to decide is Gordon's 18.3 PER in 06/07 a norm or is it a fluke? His PER in his previous 2 seasons was quite a bit lower, and his PER this year is trending closer to those 2 seasons than 06/07.

Throw in the issues of Gordon potentially not being happy here, and the thought of him potentially taking a qualifying offer next year, and if you cut bait with Gordon as the primary asset in a trade to get Redd who's a better player, and it's not so crazy.

I disagree largely with your stance on Nocioni. He hurts us in so many ways by always straying on defense and not knowing where to be on the court. I like him well enough as a bench option, but considering his primary use to us is as a 4, and our rotation is so crowded I don't think losing him would hurt the franchise at all.

Redd's a lot older than Gordon, but he's still going to have 4 good seasons left in him even if he declines as he ages. I don't see a reason to look more than 4 years into the future. If things aren't happening by then we're going to need make drastic changes anyway.

[BR0D1E86]

My first reaction was to get him because for some odd reason he always destroys Hinrich.

My second reaction was that he's got a massive contract and they clearly wouldn't take Ben Wallace for him so it would have to be either Hinrich or Gordon along with another piece.

My third reaction was hunger, so I made some pork burgers. They're quite tasty by the way, and healthier than beef. A bit of cumin in there, kosher salt on the outside and then top with cheddar and bbq sauce. But I'm getting off topic here.

My fourth reaction was that this, in theory, provides us with a legitimate focal point of our offense and a bigger guard. The problem is that this bigger guard is miserable on defense compared to Gordon who's ok on defense.

My fifth and final reaction was indifference. I'm getting to the point where I'd like change for the sake of change and I think that disqualifies me from making rational decisions on trades.

So in closing... does anyone else get mildly uncomfortable when a guy is going to the bench and the announcer says he's going to the bench "for a blow?" Just rubs me the wrong way... because it's all dudes over there.

[SuburbanOasis]

I agree with you on Redd's PER's being better in the ages that Gordon is currently going through, but he was also in a much better position in those years.

In the year when Redd would have been 22, he had Cassell and Allen both playing well in the backcourt ahead of him. That's 2 all star guards on your roster taking a ton of pressure off of you.

Gordon is the #1 option offensively with defenses that swarm him. Had Gordon been on a team where he was the 3rd option to 2 all stars I would guess his early career PER would have been higher.

25 would have been Redd's first season without an All star guard next to him as he had Allen, Cassell and Payton next to him for the previous seasons, and that is his lowest of all.

I'm not saying Redd's a bad player, in fact I think he is probably better than Gordon. BUT is he significantly better than Gordon over the next 8 years? I'm not so sure.

As far as Noce is concerned I respect your opinion, but disagree. Noce does tend to wander on defense too much, but the help he provides to our offense is worth a little wandering. With the addition of Smith this year we have 5 players who have talent with the ball in their hands (Gordon, Hinrich, Noce, Smith, Deng). If we were to move Noce/Gordon in a deal for Redd we would be where we were last year. We would go for long stretches of games with as few as 1 competent all around offensive player on the floor. That's what kills our team, and that is part of the reason why Gordon comes off the bench.

Noce wanders some, but all in all has a positive impact on the team. Not to mention the fact that he helps set a hard nosed tone. I think our team would miss him more than we think if he was gone.

[BULLS4LIFE2]

Do i really think the Bucks would let go of Redd? Honestly yes i do, for the money he makes I really think he could be replaced with a more all round player, his defense just isnt that good, and when his shot is off he really doesnt give them that much

Infact his stats are almost identical to Gordons despite playing a few more mins and having a 4 inch height advantage

Redd averages 4 more ppg, 1 more reb, 1 more assist. 0.2 more steals, the same amount of blocks, and the shooting %'s are almost identical, considering how poorly Gordon started the season theres no reason he wont overtake Redd soon.

Yet around the NBA people look at Redd as this great allstar player and laugh at Gordon wanting more than $50mill when reality is Redd is making a ridiculous amount of money, so honestly yes i could see the Bucks trading him.

Now why would the Bulls want him if he's overpaid? Because in the deal i proposed they rid themselves of Wallace and Hinrich and their contracts

Ben Gordon

2007-08 Statistics
PPG 19.5
RPG 3.9
APG 2.8
SPG 0.9
BPG 0.2
FG% 0.418
FT% 0.916
3P% 0.364
MPG 36.0

Michael Redd

2007-08 Statistics
PPG 23.4
RPG 4.9
APG 3.8
SPG 1.1
BPG 0.2
FG% 0.442
FT% 0.851
3P% 0.370
MPG 38.1


Again that trade idea was

Bulls incoming: Redd, Mo Williams and Kwame
Bulls outgoing: Duhon, Sefolosha, Khryapa, Hinrich & wallace


Bucks incoming: Odom, Sefolosha, Duhon and Khyrapa
Bucks outgoing: Redd, Mo Williams

Lakers incoming: Hinrich & Wallace
Lakers outgoing: Kwame & Odom