Trade Derrick Rose

[Wharton Alum 08]

You all have made very vaild points. From all i have ready i believe the best answer is to wait for these reasons:

1. Derrick is not the focal point of this offense.
2. A PG is suppose to be an extenion of the Coach. He is suppose to be the coach on the floor. When your coach regulates you to being a bystander in an offense run for your wing players you cant expect much from your PG.
3. Derrick, with the exception of the last 2 games has been averaging 18pts 5ast and 4rebos on 49% shooting. He is becoming the player we are expecting he will be.
4. Everyone needs to remember that you cant build a team around one player in a year and 3 months. You gotta give them time.
5. Vinny has benched Derrick for the 4th quarter for 2 straight games. I'm sure if Vinny didnt give up on his team after 3 quarters everyone would be fine with Rose.
6. Rose has played less than 30 minutes the last 2 games where his numbers have dropped. Imagine if he played 35-38 minutes? I am Sure he would be at 19pts 7ast and everyone would not be over reacting like they are right now.
7. I see no problem with Roses game. He is getting people open shots, taking the ball in hard to the hoop, and is looking like the old Rsoe. He creates, he might not be as fancy as CP3 or Nash, but he gets people open shots. The other pussi3s on this team just cant hit.
8. Trading Rose is not the answer, we lucked out on that draft and got the BEST PLAYER in that draft.
9. The problem with the Bulls start at management like everyone has mentioned, but i believe pax should man up and come down to coach this team. Vinny needs to be fired because it seems he doesnt understand what kind of players he has. Management had to talk to vinny about playing JJ.
10. It is still early in the season. 25% finished. Its a marathon not a sprint like another poster said.

All in all I firmly believe that Vinny del Negro needs to be fired. It is obvious he does not know his personel or how to use the players he has. Management, as bad as its been, needs to find ways to unload Deng and Hinrich for expirings. If we are truly going to build this team around Rose, which we should, we need a purge.

Rose needs coach to tell him what to do. He needs a coach to push him til he is able to push himself. Deron has Sloan, Wade had Riley, CP3 had Byron. All these great players have/had coaches that were experienced and knew how to better utilize a star guard.

I believe Rose is a star in this league but until you gets a better coach and a better team he wont thrive. Even with the players on the team, a coach that forces rose to have the ball 80-90% of every possesion is a better offense than what we have now. I thought Vinny was going to bring in a suns style offense ala Nash has the ball in his hands 80% of the time. He didnt. Vinny has worn out his welcome in chicago.

Building a team takes baby steps. We took a large step by getting Rose, now management needs a coach that realizes what Rose brings to the table, and utilizes his gifts...........God help us.........

This the exact same thing I almost said a couple post above. Great Post +1000

[Shinky]

My god. It's his second season!

Talk about a knee jerk reaction. This kid has amazing talent. Is it all showing right now, no. He's in a slump, he'll get out of it. He's playing one of the most difficult positions in the NBA. Trading him is the last thing we should even be considering right now.

[suckfish]

Buck off Bucks fan!

[coldfish]

Random comments:
- There have been a small number of people here who have pointed out Derrick's flaws since the beginning. At times, those people were e-shouted down and labeled haters. Now it seems that more people are seeing these flaws and quite frankly, are overreacting. Derrick's problems now are no different than his issues last year or even in college.
- If anything, that's my biggest problem with Derrick. He hasn't improved much. I don't know who his personal advisors are, but they haven't helped him much. I remember seeing offseason workout videos where Derrick was working on alley oop dunks and putbacks. Hopefully that was just a small practice highlight video and not his routine. I really don't think he is lazy, it just seems that he doesn't know how to improve. Someone really smart needs to sit down with Derrick and tell him how to become an effective NBA player. I don't even mean the big stuff, but the little things that fans don't even discuss, like footwork.
- All that being said, I always said in DWade threads that if you get DWade, you try to trade Rose for an elite big. I stand by that and now people may be getting the reason why.
- In summary, the Bulls shouldn't even consider dumping Rose. What they should do is completely re-think how they are handling him and how they are stocking the team. Derrick isn't a half court player and it seems that JR specifically wants to see a half court, defense first grind it out team.

The biggest difference, IMO, in the team that I see is that they tried to slow the pace and pack it in to improve the defense and the rebounding. It worked at first, really well actually, but now it isn't. They basically sacrificed offense for defense and ended up with neither.

If I was Vinny, I would ignore management and go back to the run, run, run team of last year. Remember, post trade the Bulls won games by an average of 110 to 102 or something. Now they can't score 90. Giving up 20 on offense isn't all Gordon. Vinny: "Listen JR, I tried it your way. It didn't work. I know you are going to fire me soon, so I'm not even going to listen to you. If I am going out, its going to be my way and that's to push the ball."

Bulls pace this year is 90.9 or 26th in the NBA
Last year 93.1 or 10th in NBA.

[jax98]

+1 on everything right there fish.

[JOHN]

Rose isn't going anywhere. He is this team's new cash cow post-Jordan, and they will milk him for all it's worth.

Ding ding ding.We have a winner

[Sever82]

All you losers who claim this is overreaction and that trading Rose is the last thing we should do - what makes you think that? It's like the Bulls are just wrapping your genitals up for you with their "Rose is from Chicago and a great kid" mantra.

Rose is more explosive than any PG I see playing in the league. He's also a very good finisher.

Those two things are the only damn things he does well in this game.

But this thread, as I said, was never meant to be about Rose and his strengths or shortcomings. It' all about how overvalued he must be right now because GMs are just as stupid as a lot of fans. They saw the highlights, they saw the #1 pick associated with his name, they saw the ROY award. Those things mean something now. In 2 or 3 years they won't.

Part of what drove me to write this thread also is my forever standing belief that the "PG" position is VASTLY overrated. Since I started following NBA ball at about age 10, I'm not sure there has been a PG who I'd consider a top 5 player. That's almost 20 years FYI. I'd think the Bulls, of all teams, would recognize this after winning 6 titles without even playing a "PG".

It's entirely possible that after full evaluation of the NBA's 30 teams, I'd decide there is no one realistic to trade for that I'd want to. Still, though, Rose's untouchable status on this board is laughable.

The ONLY reason I want to consider trading Rose is because I think he's closer to overrated than any of our players. It's a simple math problem. I do, however, realize that the Bulls are very likely to hold onto him for quite a while do to him being from Chicago and Bulls fans in Chicago apparently being romanced by that.

Wow dude, you're so full of yourself. This is clearly an overreaction thread point blank. First of all how can you expect Rose to show improvement on a team that has no kind of coaching and has no players that can take the pressure off of him. Rose sees double teams every night and defenses focus on him. How you can expect Rose to average 20ppg when he has a coach who sets up plays that take the ball off of his hands. Most of the offensive sets are either set up for Deng to Shoot or Salmons to shoot. Its pretty dumb that a lot of you are clearly overreacting to a season thats barely into December. If you want to be a fan of the bucks than go ahead, nobody is stopping you, being a fan is being a fan of the team through thick and thin. What you're being is being a Bandwagon Fan because I guarantee you'll be on this bulls board if the bulls pick it up and go on a streak. Wow its funny to hear some of you talk, I mean have you heard yourselves, you want to trade a kid who barely turned 21 yrs old, is coming off the rookie of the year season, has all the talent in the world and needs to develop. Nobody is buying into what the bulls are selling period, they're not masking anything when it comes to Rose, you ask any GM in the league if they would trade away Rose for anything short of the top players in the league and you'll get a resounding NO. This thread is clearly why GMs in the league and Front Offices dont pay attention to fans such as these when it comes to player personnel.

I mean the bulls are not a championship team and they're more of a rebuilding team, and a lot of you feel the right step is to trade away their youngest player who just so happens to be the reigning rookie of the year? Are you kidding me.

[theanimal23]

If we are talking about Rose scoring 20ppg, he can. Deng has averaged 17-18ppg a few times, and Gordon the same (and even 20ppg). If those guys can, then a guy more 'talented' should also be able to.

[sdeezy]

If we are talking about Rose scoring 20ppg, he can. Deng has averaged 17-18ppg a few times, and Gordon the same (and even 20ppg). If those guys can, then a guy more 'talented' should also be able to.

I dont think the question is if he can? If Derrick decides to play like Monta Ellis, he'd be a 23ppg scorer. The issue is he just doesnt want to take 20 FGA a game. He's been playing like this since high school and it was a fear of mine going into the draft. This was a guy who deferred to Tim Flowers and a bunch of other guys who had 1/5th his talent. Its very concerning

[Ajosu]

Why the hell would we trade Rose? Even if he doesn't become this superstar like we hoped, he's still a very good player relative to his contract, and he's a hell of a piece to have when trying to build a team. The only players he is worth trading for are the players other teams aren't willing to trade.

I've been very critical of Rose so far this year, but he is not the guy you trade, unless it lands you a pereniall All-Star on a good contract who is fairly young. And who in their right mind would give that to us?

[League Circles]

Wow dude, you're so full of yourself. This is clearly an overreaction thread point blank. First of all how can you expect Rose to show improvement on a team that has no kind of coaching and has no players that can take the pressure off of him. Rose sees double teams every night and defenses focus on him. How you can expect Rose to average 20ppg when he has a coach who sets up plays that take the ball off of his hands. Most of the offensive sets are either set up for Deng to Shoot or Salmons to shoot. Its pretty dumb that a lot of you are clearly overreacting to a season thats barely into December. If you want to be a fan of the bucks than go ahead, nobody is stopping you, being a fan is being a fan of the team through thick and thin. What you're being is being a Bandwagon Fan because I guarantee you'll be on this bulls board if the bulls pick it up and go on a streak. Wow its funny to hear some of you talk, I mean have you heard yourselves, you want to trade a kid who barely turned 21 yrs old, is coming off the rookie of the year season, has all the talent in the world and needs to develop. Nobody is buying into what the bulls are selling period, they're not masking anything when it comes to Rose, you ask any GM in the league if they would trade away Rose for anything short of the top players in the league and you'll get a resounding NO. This thread is clearly why GMs in the league and Front Offices dont pay attention to fans such as these when it comes to player personnel.

I mean the bulls are not a championship team and they're more of a rebuilding team, and a lot of you feel the right step is to trade away their youngest player who just so happens to be the reigning rookie of the year? Are you kidding me.

Full of myself? I wasn't talking about myself so I'm not sure how you get that...

I started a serious thread and was mocked by many, saying I was stupid and the thread was an overreaction. I consider that a loser way of thinking - to ALWAYS make apologies for the team like so many here do, and to act like being a losing team is nothing to get upset about.

Then a bunch of people got on my as if I was hating on Rose. Nothing could be further from the truth. I love Derrick Rose as a player. I simply wanted to broach the topic of whether he could be better used as a trade assett seeing as how he's frankly probably a little overvalued.

As far as calling me a bandwagon fan, that's kind of funny since I've been on here for 8 years - through all of the real thick and thin - and you've ben on here for a few months. I have supported most of this teams decisions in that time because I genuinely thought they were good - by both Krause and Pax for the most part. My opinion has started to change within the last year after what I consider to be several bad moves. I'm not saying that if the Bulls don't trade Rose to the highest bidder, that they're making a mistake. What I am saying is that it's starting to look a little ridiculous to have this 10 year plan to win a bunch of titles all based on a guy who really hasn't been that great. I just don't get the attitude that most have here that we simply have a young Kobe, Shaq or Duncan on our hands and all he needs are some jump shooters around him to be dominant. It's entirely possible that we have a young Steve Francis on our hands. Yet, I believe that a lot of people around the NBA also view Rose as more like a young Kobe than a young Francis.

My thoughts before making this thread were also about maybe just kind of forgetting about this obsession we have (and I'm including myself first and foremost) of building a team that can win more than 6 straight titles. We have been absolute trash for most of the time since Jordan left. When is enough wnough of always looking to the future and the mythical dynasty we'll have, and just go for a good team that is fun to watch and can get past the first round. Why have a 10 year plan. Look what the Suns do. They don't look way down the road at all, and they have been consistently great for the most part while we've been consitently bad. They signed an old Steve Nash to a contract no one else would. They give away their draft picks evry year. They take unheralded young players and old fogeys with skills, and make them a winnable product that is fun to watch. It's liek the Bulls are always swinging for the home run, but to hit that home run you need an ownership group that treats the team as a fun hobby, not a business. Yes I do believe we could win more titles with this group, but it's so unlikley that maybe it's worth trade our most over-rated assetts for underrated ones and just win more.

I don't think we'll trade Rose so I guess this thread was just hypothetical, but I'm sick of the constant apologies for this team and it's "star" player Derrick Rose. Yeah, he's good and young. Hopefully he'll become an all-star. Looks quite possible. I think we forget in Chicago just how meh that is - to have an all-star. A team SHOULD have an all-star, and we could maybe get one now. Rose is far from an all-star player right now.

As for the comments about being a Bucks fan? Come on guys, I've lived in Wisconsin my whole life and frankly would WANT to be a Bucks fan. Better ownership, better coaching, home state - closer to games, etc. But I've been WANTING to be a fan of a good team (or a different team - I guess the Bucks sure aren't good) for a long time. Unfortunately, being a fan of a team is something you can't control, cause I'm still here talking with all of you and getting upset about losses every day. Check my stats if you can -- I've posted maybe 10-20 ever on RealGM outside of the Bulls board. I'm as pure of a fan as they come. I've mentioned the Bucks thing maybe 3-4 times in moments of high frustration over the years - nothing to take too seriously.

Here is something to take seriously, though. The last 15 NBA rookies of the year:

Grant Hill - much better than Rose early on - never won much of anything
Jason Kidd - a little better than Rose early on - still arguably a little better than Rose today - never won much in between
Stoudamire, Damon - just as good as Rose early on - never became much
Iverson, Allen - much better than Rose early on - maybe still better than him - never won a lot in between
Duncan, Tim - much better than Rose early on - still much better - won a bunch of titles
Carter, Vince - better than Rose early on - still a little better perhaps - hasn't won much
Brand, Elton - much better than Rose early on - maybe still as good. Never won a thing.
Francis, Steve - as good as Rose early on - became a steaming pile
Miller, Mike - finally someone Rose is clearly better than
Gasol, Pau - just as good if not better than Rose early on - didn't get much better - but never won anything until paired with the best in the game
Stoudemire, Amare
Amare Stoudemire - not quite as good as Rose in his rookie year - but better by the second yeear - Amare has won a lot and hasn't tanked.
James, LeBron - awesome - but adumba$$
Okafor, Emeka - about as good as Rose in his rookie year - close enough at least - never amounted to anything special
Paul, Chris - just as good of a rookie as Rose - has improved and is a great player - but still hasn't won anything noteworthy
Roy, Brandon - see Paul
Kevin Durant - see Roy and Paul

What I hope that recap does is show that being ROY doesn't mean a whole lot. Yeah, it probably means you'll be an all-star, but it hardly means you'll perennial lead good teams to success. I'd really only say 4 of the 15 have done that - Duncan, Amare, Lebron and Paul.

The ROY performance doesn't mean we have our future set up, or even that he'd be a good leader for it.

[Red Larrivee]

I dont think the question is if he can? If Derrick decides to play like Monta Ellis, he'd be a 23ppg scorer. The issue is he just doesnt want to take 20 FGA a game. He's been playing like this since high school and it was a fear of mine going into the draft. This was a guy who deferred to Tim Flowers and a bunch of other guys who had 1/5th his talent. Its very concerning

If Rose plays like Ellis, then the "he's not a point guard" and "he doesn't get anyone involved" criticisms will fly. Double edged swords are waiting in the trunk in surplus.

Rose isn't going to be taking 20 shots a game. That's not his game, and it most likely never will be. The Bulls have to adapt and get weapons on this team for him to dish to for a reason and set up a system that makes the right use of it. Someone posted a long read about it the other day with how Phoenix' system with Nash was set up to the point where no matter what was going on in the offense, Nash was doing something. Same with how Miami does with Wade, New Orleans with Paul, etc. Build him as the focal point.

[Ajosu]

While Rose hasn't blossomed into a superstar overnight, I am very confident he would be a force if we had a more efficent offense around him. Guys that could hit three's and guys that could draw fouls or score in the paint. If Rose simply had players around him that the defense had to worry about, he would be much better, and no one would be trying to trade him.

I'm not making excuses for him, because he has a lot to work on. I'm just saying he is a very good player to have on your team, and not someone to trade out of desperation.

[SeniorWalker]

some people in here surprise me with the bandwagon overreaction.
i would not trade rose for anyone but lebron or howard. well, maybe durant too.
wade would put up the numbers he did last year if we had him...maybe. but then we'd have the same record too and be blown out of the first round. so no wade.
point is rose is a top level talent. if people would take a minute to calm down and a step back, they would remember when they saw it themselves.
that's right.
it is so obvious that he is just surrounded by the worst things possible when cultivating super potential: a front office that doesn't work, coach that doesn't work, team that sucks.....how is he supposed to get better here?
even though cleveland sucks as a team, at least they tried to build the city around lebron. they're doing everything they can to support him, even if it doesn't work. but they're trying.
what are we doing? does anyone know? oh yeah we do but ignore it. the mediocre team building will never end.....
the next game some average player will stop the game at the free throw line to scratch his testicles..... and he'll probably ask deng to help. or maybe the play out of a timeout will be to dance in front of joakim so he gets mad (i love the guy...feel sorry for him) and the pass into a pf/c for an easy bucket.

[Ajosu]

Quick list of players I would trade Rose for:

Roy
Durant
D Howard
Al Jefferson
Chris Paul
Carmello Anthony
Deron Williams

[DanTown8587]

Quick list of players I would trade Rose for:

Roy
Durant
D Howard
Al Jefferson
Chris Paul
Carmello Anthony
Deron Williams

Also on that list
LeBron James
Chris Bosh (resigned)
Dwyane Wade (resigned)
Andrew Bynum
Kobe Bryant

[SeniorWalker]

i believe rose has one of the top 5 highest potentials in the league.
he has the quickest first step (as agreed by deron williams), has to be one of the fastest 3 or 4 from end to end, but is bigger and stronger than all of his competitors. equal speed + more size = domination.
body control is excellent. passing is above average. (i really believe you would see even better passes with more offensively competent teammates. he's not cp3 but i know he has skill.)
shooting is average but can improve.
the guy does deserve hype. he could be a new breed of nba point guard, much like lebron is kind of an evolution of the nba athlete.
so if i'm serious about building a team around him and nurturing his growth, i wouldn't trade him unless it was for someone who had greater potential or could help produce a steady, longer-term culture of winning. how many people can do that?
lebron
howard
durant
you might say cp3 but i don't completely believe so. paul could be better but i think if rose took the same jump in growth durant did, he could dominate paul in a playoff series. billups sure as hell did.
i don't know about melo. i think rose could be more of an impact player at potential than he. he can score and rebound, but rose could possibly do more.
not roy
not kobe (31 going on 32)
not even wade (already in his prime)

[bullybullz]

How do some of you guys survive in everyday life/the real world with all these overreactions? Seriously some of you need a new hobby because it seems to take a toll. Relax. The season is a marathon not a sprint. If the Bulls trade Rose for crap, why would anyone want to sign with the Bulls?

With Rose the Bulls have an enticing piece a franchise player would be interested in as he is so unselfish(sometimes too unselfish) but he will learn as he is still very young. He has the opposite problem Michael Jordan had early in their careers. Michael wanted to dominate and will his team to victory when in reality he had to share the ball more/become unselfish for the ultimate prize.

Again I say if the Bulls get rid of Rose why would any player want to sign with this teams? Some of the common sense is severely lacking basketball wise when people resort to overreacting. Calm down. Seriously.

Learn to read - that could be your new hobby. I don't think anyone including myself suggested that we trade Rose for crap. I suggested that if we can trade Rose for a player better than he is who is under 28 we should do it because Rose isn't looking like a special tier 1 player.

I did read. Your post is so stupid it's like if I made a post about bringing back Larry Hughes or Drew Gooden. I'm actually very surprised it wasn't locked by mods the moment it was submitted to be honest. If the Bulls had beaten the Raptors last night would you still have made this (lacking basketball common sense) thread?

Tell me which player you are thinking about under 28 that is better than Rose who is enticing for a franchise player to possibly come play with the Bulls. LeBron said the other day he'd love to play with Rose one day. Would this player too?

Why don't you go on becoming a Bucks (bandwagon) fan and please GTFO.

[richboy]

Derrick Rose has always been overrated as a PG. He is a unusual player because he has PG mentality but his PG skills are not special. When he looks to score he looks like he could be special. He looks like he should be trying to be a Dwade type. When he tries to play Play like a PG he showcases that he doesn't have special PG instincts.

I think blaming the teammates misses the point. Yes his teammates could be better. No question in my mind one of the reasons that the Bulls struggle on offense is because there PG doesn't do the things well that you want a PG to do. If you subbed Rose for Steve Nash you would see an instant boost in offense because Nash knows how to run an offense.

As for trading Rose. Never can happen because right now Rose has more value to the Bulls than his trade value. Only possibility would be to NO for Chris Paul if money is a factor in NO. Really if Paul was available I think Westbrook, Jennings, or Tyreke would be higher on there list.

Really there should be no surprise about Rose. He has always had a habit of completely disappearing. To me its because he goes away from his strengths. He should be attacking like I see from Wade. Like I see from Tyreke. He is closer to Monta Ellis than he is to Chris Paul. Do that and he would be 23 and 6 for years. Don't do that he will be a 17 and 7 guy who can't really run a team.

[alucryts]

Derrick Rose has always been overrated as a PG. He is a unusual player because he has PG mentality but his PG skills are not special. When he looks to score he looks like he could be special. He looks like he should be trying to be a Dwade type. When he tries to play Play like a PG he showcases that he doesn't have special PG instincts.

I think blaming the teammates misses the point. Yes his teammates could be better. No question in my mind one of the reasons that the Bulls struggle on offense is because there PG doesn't do the things well that you want a PG to do. If you subbed Rose for Steve Nash you would see an instant boost in offense because Nash knows how to run an offense.

As for trading Rose. Never can happen because right now Rose has more value to the Bulls than his trade value. Only possibility would be to NO for Chris Paul if money is a factor in NO. Really if Paul was available I think Westbrook, Jennings, or Tyreke would be higher on there list.

Really there should be no surprise about Rose. He has always had a habit of completely disappearing. To me its because he goes away from his strengths. He should be attacking like I see from Wade. Like I see from Tyreke. He is closer to Monta Ellis than he is to Chris Paul. Do that and he would be 23 and 6 for years. Don't do that he will be a 17 and 7 guy who can't really run a team.

and what do you think rose should do? what does he have to improve? I don't care how good of an open shot rose gives if his team mates can't shoot, no wonder he looks bad.

nash runs a better team that has a better offensive scheme. it looks better than the bulls inferior talent and scheme. who wudda thunk it?