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You can just see the difference in Ayo’s game. Hes fantastic on the fastbreak and looking to push the pace far more often. The shot has improved immensely. Hes getting heavy minutes and making the most of it. We might really have something here with Ayo and Coby.

I’m always thought he’d be an excellent 7th man but I’m now coming around to him as a good starter. The 3 point shot is now the biggest difference and is becoming pretty lethal.

Is it time to compare Coby and Ayo vs. Gordon and Hinrich?

Do you think they can surpass that duo? Honestly, Coby is already looking like he's going to be a more complete player than Gordon. Ayo has all the tools to become a more complete player than Hinrich as well. Especially with that improved shot.

I think the silver lining to the Zach and Pat injuries is more developmental time for Ayo. I am coming around on idea of S&T'ing Demar for whatever we can get in the offseason. Go into the season with a starting line-up of Coby, Ayo, Zach, AC, Vuc. Build up Zach's value into the deadline, and go from there.

RSP83 wrote:Is it time to compare Coby and Ayo vs. Gordon and Hinrich?

Do you think they can surpass that duo? Honestly, Coby is already looking like he's going to be a more complete player than Gordon. Ayo has all the tools to become a more complete player than Hinrich as well. Especially with that improved shot.

I kind of like this comparison

drosestruts wrote:

RSP83 wrote:Is it time to compare Coby and Ayo vs. Gordon and Hinrich?

Do you think they can surpass that duo? Honestly, Coby is already looking like he's going to be a more complete player than Gordon. Ayo has all the tools to become a more complete player than Hinrich as well. Especially with that improved shot.

I kind of like this comparison

I mean Coby is already better than either BG or Kirk ever were, and Ayo is improving so surprisingly quickly that he might be better than them as well later on.

Hard to assess the impact of that though, because players are just generally better these days IMO. Skill level has really increased in this league in the last 15 years since they were relevant.

Ayo's last 3 month (40 games) average is really encouraging.

12.3 ppg, 3 apg, 3rpg, 1 spg, 0.6 bpg, 1.3 to/g, 50.9 fgp, 42.3 3fgp.

Link: https://statm.us/e/SbIjPfx3d

He's a legit NBA starter with that kind of production.

Last 2 months: 26 games, 14 ppg, 3 rpg, 3 apg, 51 fgp, 46 3fgp, 4.2 3fga
Last 1 month: 11 games, 16 ppg, 3 rpg, 4 apg, 55 fgp, 52 3fgp, 5.5 3fga.

RSP83 wrote:Is it time to compare Coby and Ayo vs. Gordon and Hinrich?

Do you think they can surpass that duo? Honestly, Coby is already looking like he's going to be a more complete player than Gordon. Ayo has all the tools to become a more complete player than Hinrich as well. Especially with that improved shot.

Neither of them is going to surpass or even equal Hinrich's defense, but Coby's already surpassed his offense and I think Ayo will soon enough.

Ayo will never match or surpass Gordon's offense, but Coby probably already has and is for sure the more complete player, as you said.

RSP83 wrote:Ayo's last 3 month (40 games) average is really encouraging.

12.3 ppg, 3 apg, 3rpg, 1 spg, 0.6 bpg, 1.3 to/g, 50.9 fgp, 42.3 3fgp.

Link: https://statm.us/e/SbIjPfx3d

He's a legit NBA starter with that kind of production.

Last 2 months: 26 games, 14 ppg, 3 rpg, 3 apg, 51 fgp, 46 3fgp, 4.2 3fga
Last 1 month: 11 games, 16 ppg, 3 rpg, 4 apg, 55 fgp, 52 3fgp, 5.5 3fga.

Yeah those are some really nice SG numbers.

To me, Ayo and Caruso seem pretty interchangeable. I like having either of them in this starting role because it allows us to have 3 positions where the majority of our scoring can come from and one of them being the PG spot. Having a real scoring threat at the 1 changes the game because you'd then have a floor general who can penetrate, pass, or score. It wasn't working with Zach because he and DeMar play too similarly so we were just getting more of the same. Complaints about so and so playing ISO ball have gone down significantly this season because we've been able to put the ball in our point guard's hands more who can make a play; something we haven't been able to do the last couple years.

Also, most SGs tend to be terrible defenders, but with Ayo or Caruso, we have two of the better perimeter defenders in the league so we get the added benefit of disrupting the other team's offense when you stick them on their main point of attacker.

With the personnel we have, an ideal lineup looks something like this:

Coby / Ayo or Caruso / DeMar / tall 3&D PF / Vooch

If you swap Vooch with a defensive C, then the PF can be more offensive minded but we obviously don't have that and can't afford that type of player. Pat and Craig kinda fit the bill but neither can stay healthy. If AKME are gonna stick with this roster, that's the potential improvement area they need to target.

GoBlue72391 wrote:

RSP83 wrote:Is it time to compare Coby and Ayo vs. Gordon and Hinrich?

Do you think they can surpass that duo? Honestly, Coby is already looking like he's going to be a more complete player than Gordon. Ayo has all the tools to become a more complete player than Hinrich as well. Especially with that improved shot.

Neither of them is going to surpass or even equal Hinrich's defense, but Coby's already surpassed his offense and I think Ayo will soon enough.

Ayo will never match or surpass Gordon's offense, but Coby probably already has and is for sure the more complete player, as you said.

Why not? Especially for Ayo's case.

RSP83 wrote:

GoBlue72391 wrote:

RSP83 wrote:Is it time to compare Coby and Ayo vs. Gordon and Hinrich?

Do you think they can surpass that duo? Honestly, Coby is already looking like he's going to be a more complete player than Gordon. Ayo has all the tools to become a more complete player than Hinrich as well. Especially with that improved shot.

Neither of them is going to surpass or even equal Hinrich's defense, but Coby's already surpassed his offense and I think Ayo will soon enough.

Ayo will never match or surpass Gordon's offense, but Coby probably already has and is for sure the more complete player, as you said.

Why not? Especially for Ayo's case.

Hinrich was an elite-level defender. He guarded prime DWade as well as anyone.

Ayo is a solid defender and Coby is passable, but it's unrealistic to think either of them could ever get to Hinrich's level. It's technically possible but very unlikely.

We should let our back court (Coby, Ayo, Caruso) continue to develop and use everyone else as trade value to rebuild our front court: Lavine, S&T DDR, Vuc, Carter. Goal is to get at least one legit two way player and some good role players (I include Drummond and Williams here).
See if Lonzo can get back in shape and complement out guard/forward group, otherwise retire him and have more cap room to play with.
Continue to develop Terry and Philips with potential to be full time rotation
Resign Drummond. Get another big with our lottery pick (seems like a lot of available players in our draft range or we can trade down for Zach Edey )

Ayo is making his version of a Coby like step forward right.

Fun to watch. I’m here for it.

That 3 ball is unlocking a lot for him. It looks pure too! It’s gotten so much quicker. He is even starting to pull and make 3s off the dribble when defenders go underneath the screen.

aramada wrote:We should let our back court (Coby, Ayo, Caruso) continue to develop and use everyone else as trade value to rebuild our front court: Lavine, S&T DDR, Vuc, Carter. Goal is to get at least one legit two way player and some good role players (I include Drummond and Williams here).
See if Lonzo can get back in shape and complement out guard/forward group, otherwise retire him and have more cap room to play with.
Continue to develop Terry and Philips with potential to be full time rotation
Resign Drummond. Get another big with our lottery pick (seems like a lot of available players in our draft range or we can trade down for Zach Edey )

Good points!

I think the best moves for Zach, DDR and Vuc are to keep them next season. IMO, Zach is a good enough player to be worth his contract and have positive trade value - WHEN healthy. He's not a bad team guy, and I think a useful player when surrounded by the right guys. Similarly, Vuc has negative trade value for another season when he will become an expiring salary. He just needs to come off the bench. DDR isn't going to fetch nearly the value he has to us in a S&T. The keys, IMO, are to:

1) Bring Vuc off the bench
2) Better balance offense/defense in line-ups - Line-ups like Coby, Zach, Demar, AC, AD or AC, Ayo, Zach or Demar, Pat, Vuc where you have at least 2 defenders on the floor with scorers may be worth working with.

I remember a bunch of noise to draft this guy instead... https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/274815/Sharife-Cooper-Cavaliers-Agree-To-10-Day-Contract

sco wrote:

aramada wrote:We should let our back court (Coby, Ayo, Caruso) continue to develop and use everyone else as trade value to rebuild our front court: Lavine, S&T DDR, Vuc, Carter. Goal is to get at least one legit two way player and some good role players (I include Drummond and Williams here).
See if Lonzo can get back in shape and complement out guard/forward group, otherwise retire him and have more cap room to play with.
Continue to develop Terry and Philips with potential to be full time rotation
Resign Drummond. Get another big with our lottery pick (seems like a lot of available players in our draft range or we can trade down for Zach Edey )

Good points!

I think the best moves for Zach, DDR and Vuc are to keep them next season. IMO, Zach is a good enough player to be worth his contract and have positive trade value - WHEN healthy. He's not a bad team guy, and I think a useful player when surrounded by the right guys. Similarly, Vuc has negative trade value for another season when he will become an expiring salary. He just needs to come off the bench. DDR isn't going to fetch nearly the value he has to us in a S&T. The keys, IMO, are to:

1) Bring Vuc off the bench
2) Better balance offense/defense in line-ups - Line-ups like Coby, Zach, Demar, AC, AD or AC, Ayo, Zach or Demar, Pat, Vuc where you have at least 2 defenders on the floor with scorers may be worth working with.

In my opinion, we should move on from Zach, DDR, and Vuc this summer as we have an opportunity to do so without fully rebuilding. They are all offense minded players that you need to actively build around, but nowhere near compatible or good enough to be a core anymore.

Regarding LaVine, I think that a/ he has more trade value than we think, and b/ him staying means our current backcourt doesn’t develop as intended in my OP. I think he’s the first domino to fall and we can get role player contracts and a first for him, to be recycled later in the offseason

Vuc is the player I would want to part with the most. I’m a pretty thoughtful guy, but I can’t help but agreeing with those who call him soft. We literally can’t win with him. Apply a tiny bit of pressure and he folds in an unbelievable way. His trade value is indeed neutral at best, but I guess someone could use his durability, rebounding, and post skills so maybe we get some role player wing for him?

Demar is the one I would be the most inclined to keep, but he’d need a more secondary role or even a 6th man profile, which I doubt would happen. Maybe combine the first from Zach’s trade in a S&T for an upgrade at big…

sco wrote:I remember a bunch of noise to draft this guy instead... https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/274815/Sharife-Cooper-Cavaliers-Agree-To-10-Day-Contract

I wanted Cooper at 38, but I was also very happy with the Ayo pick and considered them both to have fallen at the time. But I thought Cooper had the ceiling to be a better PG. Oops.

It was reported after the draft that Cooper and his dad were both head cases and turned teams off.

This is impressive. Hes embracing his ability on fastbreaks. Could be the key to him unlocking his game.

boozapalooza wrote:

Read on Twitter

This is impressive. Hes embracing his ability on fastbreaks. Could be the key to him unlocking his game.

Imagine if we didn’t have DDR and Vuc slowing us down. Ayo would hit another gear in transition.

boozapalooza wrote:

Read on Twitter

This is impressive. Hes embracing his ability on fastbreaks. Could be the key to him unlocking his game.

That's incredibly impressive, especially considering his minutes and usage are lower than those guys. If we end this season feeling like we have our backcourt of the future that's a pretty significant development in this season.