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Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 8:03 pm
by GoBlue72391
sco wrote:TheGOATRises007 wrote:Stratmaster wrote:Let me make my point more clearly.
Replace Vuc with THAT Boozer and this team would have contended for the ECF even without Lonzo. Put him alongside Drum instead of Vuc.
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It's Boozer. Not Tim Duncan.
IIRC, much of the Boozer complaints were due to his large contract in relation to his production. He was probably a 2nd quartile PF, but paid like a 1st quartile guy. He also annoyed me for his "get it Jo's". Taj was a guy who was a Butler-type developer...he seemed to add something every year.
His defense was bad, he was generally pretty soft as a player, and his production never matched what he did in Utah, but he was a great teammate and clearly cared.
Some of it was also due to him basically being the consolation prize after missing out on LeBron, Wade, Bosh, etc. combined with his backup being a fan-favorite hustle/try-hard guy in Taj who was very easy to root for and was arguably the better all-around player.
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 8:07 pm
by GoBlue72391
Guru wrote:Vuc is the 14th highest paid on average C in the league. To act like he is on a terrible deal, and that he is some albatross destroying this team is just nonsense.
There is too much binary thinking on this board. Players are not all or nothing.
According to Spotrac, Vuc is the 11th highest-paid C in the league this year. His advanced stats have him as one of the worst and it's clear by the eye-test that the dude is just not good anymore. He's also getting older and declining seemingly every game and we already have $60M tied up in two disabled players.
That is indeed a problem.
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 8:10 pm
by othawhitemeat
madvillian wrote:othawhitemeat wrote:Vuc sucks, AKME sucks on trying to stay competitive w a mediocre team. Love Coby, hope to see continued growth for Ayo in terms of driving. First game watched in a while since it was a national telecast and feel NBA product isnt very good anymore and watching the dumb reffing, can see why. Just watching Mitchell get treated like the 06 Wade vs Mavs was ridiculous. Felt like I was watching the sequel to the Tim Donaghey special. Honestly, Bulls would have won otherwise, IMO. Also, why did one of leaders such as Craig/Drummond not put Niang in his place when he was trying to bully Coby and why the freak did Coby get a tech on that, smh.
Coby will be an all-star next year if continued growth!
Mitchell always gets so many calls against us. I watch a lot of games for fantasy interest and the NBA imo, needs to figure some things out on how contact is officiated. The offense has too much of an advantage now. Maybe bring back the full handcheck and also change the rules on how you can put hands on guys in the paint.
Either way, it is a bad product IMO. I miss the 90's physicality and/or the Spurs type basketball in terms of basketball, and not just rewarding the superstar crap where every flop, etc... is rewarded. It's a good thing I'm not a NBA ref. I would start calling fouls on flopping just for the egregiousness.
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 8:11 pm
by GoBlue72391
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 8:56 pm
by MrSparkle
Thanks.
Man that is tough to entirely blame either guy, but personally I lean towards blaming Vuc. I slowed down the clip to 50%.
#1 Coby collapsed the D and drew 4 guys, inc. 2 elite 7’ shot blockers, and he got the pass out. I really don’t think he had a FG to attempt in the paint. Literally 8 hands surrounding him unless he got bailed out by the refs.
#2 In slow mo, Vuc popped to the 3P, then he saw Garland and rolled. Coby found him. He raises his hands for the pass about 0.5 seconds after Coby’s head motions he’s looking for him. Garland had enough time to roll, and Vuc’s hands are still slowly coming up. Plus he like, volleys the ball out of bounds instead of atleast tapping it for a possession.
Now Coby could’ve made the bounce pass a hair earlier on the give and go or delivered the 3P pass on the pick n pop, before Vuc cut, but we’d be living and dying with Vuc’s 25% shooting. That might’ve been the right play to make, with Garland switching to Vuc. The alternative was just lobbing it softly, but of course Vuc isn’t the type of athlete to win the race if the defense has time to adjust to a slower pass.
But I dunno. I liked Coby getting to the paint. Honestly, Vuc set a great screen, but otherwise if I was the head coach, I’d want Demar and Coby running something together.
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:03 pm
by FriedRise
The pass was a little hot and a tad high, but Vooch should still have been able to catch it. That right side of the court was also empty, so maybe Coby was half expecting Vooch to stay there spacing in the corner.
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:04 pm
by Dan Z
Indomitable wrote:RSP83 wrote:Dan Z wrote:
The way the Bulls use him he should be better at three point shooting because he gets a lot of open looks. His career is .342 and this year it's currently .277. I can't imagine that's age, but maybe it is?
Isn't there a stat on Vuc in some threads that show how he has one of the worst TS% in the league for his level of usage. And it's also his career low. So, it's overall offensive efficiency.
My biggest problem is Vuc is wide open. He is not taking contestant shots. He is being treated like a scrub.
Was he wide open in Orlando? His last year there he shot 406 from three. How did he forget to shoot? In Orlando I image he faced pressure from the defense because he was their #1 guy.
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:05 pm
by GoBlue72391
MrSparkle wrote:Thanks.
Man that is tough to entirely blame either guy, but personally I lean towards blaming Vuc. I slowed down the clip to 50%.
#1 Coby collapsed the D and drew 4 guys, inc. 2 elite 7’ shot blockers, and he got the pass out. I really don’t think he had a FG to attempt in the paint. Literally 8 hands surrounding him unless he got bailed out by the refs.
#2 In slow mo, Vuc popped to the 3P, then he saw Garland and rolled. Coby found him. He raises his hands for the pass about 0.5 seconds after Coby’s head motions he’s looking for him. Garland had enough time to roll, and Vuc’s hands are still slowly coming up. Plus he like, volleys the ball out of bounds instead of atleast tapping it for a possession.
Now Coby could’ve made the bounce pass a hair earlier on the give and go or delivered the 3P pass on the pick n pop, before Vuc cut, but we’d be living and dying with Vuc’s 25% shooting. That might’ve been the right play to make, with Garland switching to Vuc. The alternative was just lobbing it softly, but of course Vuc isn’t the type of athlete to win the race if the defense has time to adjust to a slower pass.
But I dunno. I liked Coby getting to the paint. Honestly, Vuc set a great screen, but otherwise if I was the head coach, I’d want Demar and Coby running something together.
I'd label it like 90% Vuc, 10% Coby's fault. It was a sudden and high pass, but it hit Vuc right in the hands and it absolutely could have and should have been caught. Vuc was struggling to catch the ball all night, so it wasn't an isolated incident.
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 9:22 pm
by MrSparkle
GoBlue72391 wrote:MrSparkle wrote:Thanks.
Man that is tough to entirely blame either guy, but personally I lean towards blaming Vuc. I slowed down the clip to 50%.
#1 Coby collapsed the D and drew 4 guys, inc. 2 elite 7’ shot blockers, and he got the pass out. I really don’t think he had a FG to attempt in the paint. Literally 8 hands surrounding him unless he got bailed out by the refs.
#2 In slow mo, Vuc popped to the 3P, then he saw Garland and rolled. Coby found him. He raises his hands for the pass about 0.5 seconds after Coby’s head motions he’s looking for him. Garland had enough time to roll, and Vuc’s hands are still slowly coming up. Plus he like, volleys the ball out of bounds instead of atleast tapping it for a possession.
Now Coby could’ve made the bounce pass a hair earlier on the give and go or delivered the 3P pass on the pick n pop, before Vuc cut, but we’d be living and dying with Vuc’s 25% shooting. That might’ve been the right play to make, with Garland switching to Vuc. The alternative was just lobbing it softly, but of course Vuc isn’t the type of athlete to win the race if the defense has time to adjust to a slower pass.
But I dunno. I liked Coby getting to the paint. Honestly, Vuc set a great screen, but otherwise if I was the head coach, I’d want Demar and Coby running something together.
I'd label it like 90% Vuc, 10% Coby's fault. It was a sudden and high pass, but it hit Vuc right in the hands and it absolutely could have and should have been caught. Vuc was struggling to catch the ball all night, so it wasn't an isolated incident.
Yeah. Short of Magic having more height and CP3 putting a little more soft spin on the delivery, i don’t think the pass could’ve been that much better. It was a tough cover, and the timing was good.
Also just a tough play call. Coby is driving to paint on Mobley and Allen… with his spacers being: Caruso, Demar, Vuc and Drummond , in order of 3P%… uhhh
One of those things where a normal coach may sub defense for offense, put Jevon out there. But Billy categorically never calls a deep bench player strategically for a clutch play, so that option doesn’t really exist here. Interesting to think back to the days where Skiles calls Pargo and he nearly saves the Wizards series.
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 10:03 pm
by Dan Z
2weekswithpay wrote:Stratmaster wrote:2weekswithpay wrote:
This reminds me of when Westbrook was on the Lakers and he judged his play by how many triple-doubles he had.
Westbrook didn't have value?
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He didn't but Danny Ainge likes to blow up competitive Jazz teams midseason.
The other day I read an article about the Jazz and how their players were told that the goal this year was to make the playoffs. Then at the deadline they traded Kelly Olynyk, Simone Fontecchio, and Ochai Agbaji. That has to be somewhat frustrating for the players.
I can't find the exact article that I read, so this one will have to do. The main reason why I'm posting it is because I think this quote by their GM is interesting and is basically the opposite of what AK says at his press conference.
"I want to win just as much as they [Jazz players] do. I don't think there's any question about that from Will, from Danny, from me — but I want to win for a long time. And so the definition of winning and success for me is a deep playoff run. And for us to get there, we need to have players that we can acquire that move the needle or continue to develop the players that we have here to see if they can be part of that.”
https://thejnotes.com/posts/we-absolutely-agree-it-s-embarrassing-that-the-utah-jazz-gave-up-on-the-season-at-the-nba-trade-deadline-01hpg3b6b92m
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:02 pm
by madvillian
FriedRise wrote:The pass was a little hot and a tad high, but Vooch should still have been able to catch it. That right side of the court was also empty, so maybe Coby was half expecting Vooch to stay there spacing in the corner.
I think if nothing else, he has to at least corral it. Even if it had led to a rushed shot or even shot clock violation. He seemed in a mental funk most of the game and if he was more into the game maybe deflects it to himself.
Eh, just one play at the end of the day. His season long swoon is much more troublesome.
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:17 pm
by Guru
GoBlue72391 wrote:Guru wrote:Vuc is the 14th highest paid on average C in the league. To act like he is on a terrible deal, and that he is some albatross destroying this team is just nonsense.
There is too much binary thinking on this board. Players are not all or nothing.
According to Spotrac, Vuc is the 11th highest-paid C in the league this year. His advanced stats have him as one of the worst and it's clear by the eye-test that the dude is just not good anymore. He's also getting older and declining seemingly every game and we already have $60M tied up in two disabled players.
That is indeed a problem.
Absolute hyperbole.
He's 14th in aav of current center contracts. And that will go down next year. Jonas Valanciunas might pass him and Claxton certainly will.
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:37 pm
by GoBlue72391
Guru wrote:GoBlue72391 wrote:Guru wrote:Vuc is the 14th highest paid on average C in the league. To act like he is on a terrible deal, and that he is some albatross destroying this team is just nonsense.
There is too much binary thinking on this board. Players are not all or nothing.
According to Spotrac, Vuc is the 11th highest-paid C in the league this year. His advanced stats have him as one of the worst and it's clear by the eye-test that the dude is just not good anymore. He's also getting older and declining seemingly every game and we already have $60M tied up in two disabled players.
That is indeed a problem.
Absolute hyperbole.
He's 14th in aav of current center contracts. And that will go down next year. Jonas Valanciunas might pass him and Claxton certainly will.
Statistics are hyperbole, now?
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:50 pm
by Guru
GoBlue72391 wrote:Guru wrote:GoBlue72391 wrote:According to Spotrac, Vuc is the 11th highest-paid C in the league this year. His advanced stats have him as one of the worst and it's clear by the eye-test that the dude is just not good anymore. He's also getting older and declining seemingly every game and we already have $60M tied up in two disabled players.
That is indeed a problem.
Absolute hyperbole.
He's 14th in aav of current center contracts. And that will go down next year. Jonas Valanciunas might pass him and Claxton certainly will.
Statistics are hyperbole, now?
"and it's clear by the eye-test that the dude is just not good anymore. He's also getting older and declining seemingly every game"
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 11:57 pm
by GoBlue72391
Guru wrote:GoBlue72391 wrote:Guru wrote:
Absolute hyperbole.
He's 14th in aav of current center contracts. And that will go down next year. Jonas Valanciunas might pass him and Claxton certainly will.
Statistics are hyperbole, now?
"and it's clear by the eye-test that the dude is just not good anymore. He's also getting older and declining seemingly every game"
Oh, so he's getting younger and improving every game then. My mistake.
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:47 am
by Guru
GoBlue72391 wrote:Guru wrote:GoBlue72391 wrote:Statistics are hyperbole, now?
"and it's clear by the eye-test that the dude is just not good anymore. He's also getting older and declining seemingly every game"
Oh, so he's getting younger and improving every game then. My mistake.
Your ignoring half of your own sentences.
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 12:52 am
by Hangtime84
He dropped a pass whatever.
Drummond should have been the PnR with Vuc in the corner
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 1:20 am
by SfBull
GoBlue72391 wrote:Start Drummond, shut down Vuc, and sign a backup C. Honestly, that's what we should do if we're actually trying to maximize our chances of winning.
Kessler was there to be drafted in 2022 and now is a top 5 shot blocker.Instead AK wasted the pick on Terry
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 2:59 am
by kodo
Coby explained the bad pass was because he expected Vuc to be at the 3 point line, but defended Vuc saying going to the basket was the right move. Vucevic himself understands he's a 25% 3P shooter and made the cut.
The problem here is why are we running plays designed to leave the league's worst 3P shooter open at the 3P line. Even Vuc knows this is a bad play, which is why he cut to the basket and the play broke down.
Re: PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2024 3:27 am
by Dan Z
SfBull wrote:GoBlue72391 wrote:Start Drummond, shut down Vuc, and sign a backup C. Honestly, that's what we should do if we're actually trying to maximize our chances of winning.
Kessler was there to be drafted in 2022 and now is a top 5 shot blocker.Instead AK wasted the pick on Terry
I bet they draft a center in the upcoming draft, but they should go with the best player available regardless of position.