GT # 42, Bulls @ Cavs, 15 Jan 2024, 6 PM CT, NBCSCH

[RyanJamari]

The Bulls are currently in 9th place and are essentially the same, record-wise, as the team last year.

Are AKME going to make changes? If they stay the course (little to no moves) how many years will the Bulls be a fringe play-in/low playoff seed team?

It would be nice if they could get some length. If AJ Griffin could be had for cheap I would like to see something like that. I really don’t think the bulls make any big moves to save the season at the deadline. This roster changes in the offseason, for sure.


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We thought last summer the roster would change for sure. What makes you think it will next summer?

We need real power forwards and a coach that plays them as well.

Demar expiring and Lavine wanting a trade. Lonzo ‘s deal coming off the books in 25 is big too. Jerry is too cheap for the Bulls to overcome $20 million in dead cap.


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[The 6ft Hurdle]

It's kinda weird seeing the elephant in the room ignored. Our starting PG had 5 baskets, 3 assists, and 7 turnovers. Coby justly received the credit for sparking the team in December. But he more than anybody tanked today's offense.

It’s the NBA. He had a bad game. It happens.


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Coby was awful, but it isn't a big picture issue like the rest of what we saw tonight.

Ayo and Caruso were great and Ayo didn't get enough burn down the stretch. I feel like he never got back into the game after that 21-3 run.

I followed this game via ESPN box score. I saw that it was 81-80 Bulls at some point in the fourth quarter with about 9 minutes in the 4th quarter. Then we sub in Zach and Vuc. The game then became 81-87 and I kind of started losing hope. Something in me told me we weren't fighting back. We didn't have any response. Not sure what was up with Coby today though it appears he made 2 critical turnovers down the stretch as a ballhandler.

What strikes me is that we had a chance but we blew it based on our complete non-response during this stretch. They outscored us 25-10 for the final 9 minutes, WHY?????

10:01 Coby White makes free throw 1 of 2 80 80
10:01 Coby White makes free throw 2 of 2 81 80
9:42 Donovan Mitchell misses 26-foot step back jumpshot 81 80
9:40 Ayo Dosunmu defensive rebound 81 80
9:38 Coby White misses 24-foot three point shot 81 80
9:33 Caris LeVert defensive rebound 81 80
9:26 Caris LeVert makes 25-foot three point jumper (Sam Merrill assists) 81 83
9:12 DeMar DeRozan misses 11-foot two point shot 81 83
9:12 Bulls offensive team rebound 81 83
9:12 Max Strus enters the game for Caris LeVert 81 83
9:12 Jevon Carter enters the game for DeMar DeRozan 81 83
9:12 Zach LaVine enters the game for Ayo Dosunmu 81 83
8:58 Zach LaVine out of bounds bad pass turnover 81 83
8:48 Zach LaVine shooting foul 81 83
8:48 Donovan Mitchell makes free throw 1 of 2 81 84
8:48 Nikola Vucevic enters the game for Andre Drummond 81 84
8:48 Donovan Mitchell makes free throw 2 of 2 81 85
8:28 Nikola Vucevic misses 17-foot jumper 81 85
8:25 Isaac Okoro defensive rebound 81 85
8:19 Donovan Mitchell makes 1-foot two point shot (Max Strus assists) 81 87
8:19 Zach LaVine shooting foul 81 87
8:19 DeMar DeRozan enters the game for Alex Caruso 81 87
8:19 Donovan Mitchell makes free throw 1 of 1 81 88
8:09 Coby White lost ball turnover (Sam Merrill steals) 81 88
8:07 Sam Merrill makes two point shot 81 90
7:50 Nikola Vucevic misses 7-foot two point shot 81 90
7:48 Jarrett Allen defensive rebound 81 90
7:40 Isaac Okoro misses 23-foot three point jumper 81 90
7:37 Nikola Vucevic defensive rebound 81 90
7:29 Coby White bad pass (Donovan Mitchell steals) 81 90
7:26 Max Strus out of bounds bad pass turnover 81 90
7:26 Bulls Full timeout 81 90

[2weekswithpay]

Read on Twitter

The tough part of the bulls personnel defensively

Vucevic is one of the worst rim protecting bigs in the NBA, so a Brook Lopez like drop coverage isn’t going to work for the Bulls. Teams will score over Vucevic time and time again. Or just go around him.

So they have to sell out in attempt to prevent any ball penetration. Vucevic often plays up near the screen in attempt to not let the ball handler penetrate. If you can’t protect the rim, do whatever you can to prevent opponents from getting to the rim.

You can see below, this defense opens up a lot of 4-on-3 for opponents as Vucevic is not mobile enough nor has the motor to get back and disrupt anything. Jarrett Allen catches the ball on the short roll and he has Coby White, Zach LaVine, and DeMar DeRozan, three guys not known for their defense tasked with stopping him. Here lies the second issue of the Bulls personal. None of these players are ones you would wish to have on a backline defense.

The end result is a Jarrett Allen dunk.

The Bulls did find some success defensively having both Caruso and Lonzo on the floor. One of those two would have been the help, could read the play, and fly in to blow it up.

But with their personal currently, the Bulls best defense is to limit transition and rebound the ball well to force opponents into more half court sets which aren’t as efficient.

[Ice Man]

Lot of personnel talk, but what about the strategy of allowing 57 3s?

Seems OK to me. Cleveland scored 60 points on 57 3s, which is meh, and scored 109 points, which is 6 points below the league average. We just didn't score ourselves.

[Wingy]

Something in me told me we weren't fighting back. We didn't have any response.

We were down 21 midway through the 3rd and had made a huge response to get to the point you posted the game log.

The second half of comeback came mostly with Mitchell resting. He came back in, combined with the weak, anti-synergistic defense of the 3 + Coby leads to not being able to sustain such a ridiculously long run.

Even so, hardly any team can “respond” for a whole quarter and a half. It’s a game of runs.

[MikeDC]

1. The two big lineup was nothing special. We went on a run the first time, but we did it twice more in the 4th and it was a negative both times. A big reason it was a negative is that both our big guys are too damn slow. There's too much perimeter for the guards to defend, which is part of why the Cavs got so many open 3s. Definitely a couple of the Levert and one of the Dean Wade 3s were because Drummond and Vuc were totally unable to contest.

And... we did go back to it. It's not like the Bulls didn't adjust. The truth is we lost because...

2. Coby, but really everyone else too just played terribly. After the moment we went ahead, we had:
Coby nearly air-balled a 3
Patented 4th qtr Zach bad pass TO
Patented missed Vuc wide open shot
Patented missed Vuc bunny
Coby just seeming to fall down and TOing
Coby reverting to 2nd year Coby and just having the ball taken from him (TO)
DeMar TO
Caruso TO

At that point there's 5 minutes left and the Bulls are back down by ten. Both the defense and the offense were bad, but TOing (badly) almost every time down the court is bad. Vuc and Drummond and LaVine to a lesser extent make clutch time a shooting drill for the opponent.

[Ice Man]

Coby, but really everyone else too just played terribly. After the moment we went ahead, we had:
Coby nearly air-balled a 3
Patented 4th qtr Zach bad pass TO
Patented missed Vuc wide open shot
Patented missed Vuc bunny
Coby just seeming to fall down and TOing
Coby reverting to 2nd year Coby and just having the ball taken from him (TO)
DeMar TO
Caruso TO

In short order, all five Bulls who were on the court wet the bed.

It happens. As a side note, after a fine December, the Bulls do not have a quality win yet in January -

Sixers - Loss
Knicks - Loss
Hornets - Win
Hornets - Win
Rockets - Win (That would be a quality win if in Houston, but the Rockets are an awful 4-14 on the road)
Warriors - Loss
Spurs - Win
Cavs - Loss

We will get another chance on Thursday, because beating Toronto in their building would certainly qualify as a quality win.

[kodo]

In addition to the new emphasis on shooting profile, AK said one of the other improvements would playing with pace.

Last season: 19th in Pace
This season: 30th

We've actually gone massively backwards in this area.

[Ice Man]

In addition to the new emphasis on shooting profile, AK said one of the other improvements would playing with pace.

Last season: 19th in Pace
This season: 30th

We've actually gone massively backwards in this area.

I am less surprised that we have gone backwards despite AK's promise than the fact that we made it as high as 19th last year. Zach and DDR are "set up my shot" guys and our two centers are lumbering trucks who don't make outlet passes. Kinda hard to play with great pace with those as the team's starting points.

[Wingy]

I don't think it's fair to label it as a trend for Coby. He had a poor game tonight but in his previous 4 outings, Coby was putting up 24/6/4 on 55/50/80 shooting with just 7 turnovers total.

That’s good, however we’ve played some really bad competition in our last 4-5 (wounded Hornets, Wemby-less Spurs).

I’d have to find it, but I have a post in recent post game thread memory calling out careless TOs.

Then I just looked this up to see if the anecdotal fit the stats. Through 30 games, he had at max 3 TOs. In his last 12 games, he has turned it over 4 (or more) times on 5 occasions. So there actually is a negative trend happening.

[ChettheJet]

Lost the game in the 1st quarter, 40 points, but only 69 the last 3 quarters. Bulls scored evenly and poorly through all 4.

I like to mention; size, size, size. There are Patrick and Craig in street clothes. I doubt there's another team that plays 3 PGs at the same time and NOBODY over 6-6 at 4 positions. Billy has no faith in Terry Taylor, he might as well hit the road or be a throw in for a trade.

This along with the need for almost perfection from 5 guys for them to win is why I think they have to be active at the deadline. When Zach came back there were a couple of very strong games, but I wanted to wait and see how 10 games looked or to the all star break or deadline. This group keeps showing that they aren't even a .500 team, it's not like a lot of teams they lose to that are young and hoping to 'get it'. These are all veteran players who are who they are, there's no big leap to be had, they either don't have what it takes or don't bring it consistently.

[drosestruts]

Billy Donovan as a coach simply does not believe in the "hot-hand" philosophy and is a stickler for his rotations. Something I imagine a locker room could easily be very split on - guys that benefit from it probably like it, guys that don't probably hate it.

A certain lineup gets you back into the game? Don't care we're closing with our standard closing lineup. Drummond +4, Ayo +6 in an 18-point loss is pretty impressive.

Bulls have also struggled mightly in the past few games with 2nd chance points. 26 second chance points in this game.

Combine that with 18 turnovers and 18 points off those turnovers.

You won't win when giving up a combination of 44 points on turnovers and 2nd chance opportunities

I'd go as far as to say that the Cavs we're even that good tonight, the Bulls just stunk.

[Mirotek]

Going from eye test alone, Vucevic is one of the worst centers in the league. Slow, flat footed, doesn't go for rebounds, doesn't contest shots, can't make 3's, has no touch. He's gotta be one of my least liked Bull of all time just based on his attitude/energy that he gives off..always feels no negative.

[MikeDC]

Billy Donovan as a coach simply does not believe in the "hot-hand" philosophy and is a stickler for his rotations. Something I imagine a locker room could easily be very split on - guys that benefit from it probably like it, guys that don't probably hate it.

A certain lineup gets you back into the game? Don't care we're closing with our standard closing lineup. Drummond +4, Ayo +6 in an 18-point loss is pretty impressive.

See, I think this is just factually wrong, and you guys that are saying "the Bulls never adjust" and they "won't try playing big" are being very selective.

Down the stretch, The Bulls actually did adjust and played Drummond! With Vuc. The vaunted two big lineup that "got them back in the game!"

And it was a disaster. Drummond was -8 in the 4th just like everyone else. Playing both bigs, the Cavs just adjusted and went small and quick (with Allen as the only big) and got open three after open three because those two guys can't move fast enough.

I'd go as far as to say that the Cavs we're even that good tonight, the Bulls just stunk.

I agree with the bottom line, but what I'm trying to point out here is that there's a misperception that the Bulls are somehow less than the sum of their parts. That if only they'd play a slightly different rotation, or a slightly different combination of these 8-9 guys, they'd be meaningfully different.

This game is evidence that's not the case. They did what people were calling for them to do, and it just resulted in a different kind of loss. And, it showed very clearly why doing what people are calling for doesn't work.

1. The two-big lineup can't defend the 3 point shot. Replacing Vuc with Drummond also doesn't result in high level defense because he has many of the same limitations.

2. Outside of DeMar, running the offense in the 4th quarter is pretty challenging. I like Coby a lot, and have liked him a lot longer than most, but he's not ready (if he ever will be) to be a consistent closer. Zach is not that guy.

That is why the Bulls don't often do the things that fans want. Because, most of the time, it lowers the probability that the Bulls will win. Simple as that.

[Chi town]

In addition to the new emphasis on shooting profile, AK said one of the other improvements would playing with pace.

Last season: 19th in Pace
This season: 30th

We've actually gone massively backwards in this area.

Thank DDR for that!

[Chi town]

Billy Donovan as a coach simply does not believe in the "hot-hand" philosophy and is a stickler for his rotations. Something I imagine a locker room could easily be very split on - guys that benefit from it probably like it, guys that don't probably hate it.

A certain lineup gets you back into the game? Don't care we're closing with our standard closing lineup. Drummond +4, Ayo +6 in an 18-point loss is pretty impressive.

Bulls have also struggled mightly in the past few games with 2nd chance points. 26 second chance points in this game.

Combine that with 18 turnovers and 18 points off those turnovers.

You won't win when giving up a combination of 44 points on turnovers and 2nd chance opportunities

I'd go as far as to say that the Cavs we're even that good tonight, the Bulls just stunk.

Yep. We beat ourselves.

Good teams don’t do that often.

[Chi town]

Billy Donovan as a coach simply does not believe in the "hot-hand" philosophy and is a stickler for his rotations. Something I imagine a locker room could easily be very split on - guys that benefit from it probably like it, guys that don't probably hate it.

A certain lineup gets you back into the game? Don't care we're closing with our standard closing lineup. Drummond +4, Ayo +6 in an 18-point loss is pretty impressive.

See, I think this is just factually wrong, and you guys that are saying "the Bulls never adjust" and they "won't try playing big" are being very selective.

Down the stretch, The Bulls actually did adjust and played Drummond! With Vuc. The vaunted two big lineup that "got them back in the game!"

And it was a disaster. Drummond was -8 in the 4th just like everyone else. Playing both bigs, the Cavs just adjusted and went small and quick (with Allen as the only big) and got open three after open three because those two guys can't move fast enough.

I'd go as far as to say that the Cavs we're even that good tonight, the Bulls just stunk.

I agree with the bottom line, but what I'm trying to point out here is that there's a misperception that the Bulls are somehow less than the sum of their parts. That if only they'd play a slightly different rotation, or a slightly different combination of these 8-9 guys, they'd be meaningfully different.

This game is evidence that's not the case. They did what people were calling for them to do, and it just resulted in a different kind of loss. And, it showed very clearly why doing what people are calling for doesn't work.

1. The two-big lineup can't defend the 3 point shot. Replacing Vuc with Drummond also doesn't result in high level defense because he has many of the same limitations.

2. Outside of DeMar, running the offense in the 4th quarter is pretty challenging. I like Coby a lot, and have liked him a lot longer than most, but he's not ready (if he ever will be) to be a consistent closer. Zach is not that guy.

That is why the Bulls don't often do the things that fans want. Because, most of the time, it lowers the probability that the Bulls will win. Simple as that.

Don’t forget we were missing our 2 way PFs in Pat and Torrey. The hey would have helped a lot. Them missing is why Drummond played PF.

[MikeDC]

Billy Donovan as a coach simply does not believe in the "hot-hand" philosophy and is a stickler for his rotations. Something I imagine a locker room could easily be very split on - guys that benefit from it probably like it, guys that don't probably hate it.

A certain lineup gets you back into the game? Don't care we're closing with our standard closing lineup. Drummond +4, Ayo +6 in an 18-point loss is pretty impressive.

See, I think this is just factually wrong, and you guys that are saying "the Bulls never adjust" and they "won't try playing big" are being very selective.

Down the stretch, The Bulls actually did adjust and played Drummond! With Vuc. The vaunted two big lineup that "got them back in the game!"

And it was a disaster. Drummond was -8 in the 4th just like everyone else. Playing both bigs, the Cavs just adjusted and went small and quick (with Allen as the only big) and got open three after open three because those two guys can't move fast enough.

I'd go as far as to say that the Cavs we're even that good tonight, the Bulls just stunk.

I agree with the bottom line, but what I'm trying to point out here is that there's a misperception that the Bulls are somehow less than the sum of their parts. That if only they'd play a slightly different rotation, or a slightly different combination of these 8-9 guys, they'd be meaningfully different.

This game is evidence that's not the case. They did what people were calling for them to do, and it just resulted in a different kind of loss. And, it showed very clearly why doing what people are calling for doesn't work.

1. The two-big lineup can't defend the 3 point shot. Replacing Vuc with Drummond also doesn't result in high level defense because he has many of the same limitations.

2. Outside of DeMar, running the offense in the 4th quarter is pretty challenging. I like Coby a lot, and have liked him a lot longer than most, but he's not ready (if he ever will be) to be a consistent closer. Zach is not that guy.

That is why the Bulls don't often do the things that fans want. Because, most of the time, it lowers the probability that the Bulls will win. Simple as that.

Don’t forget we were missing our 2 way PFs in Pat and Torrey. The hey would have helped a lot. Them missing is why Drummond played PF.

Right. I get that. I'm pointing out though that victory has a thousand fathers and defeat is an orphan. People keep pushing various ideas and complaining when they almost never get tried (even though, in most cases, the answer for why they don't get tried is pretty obvious).

I'm just pointing out this is a case where we see the downside of some of these ideas.

As far as I can tell, this year has been a veritable graveyard of bad fan ideas. RIP:

• Two center lineup
• Drummond as a full time guy
• Pat at center
• Vuc as a floor spacer
• Pat's handle
• Jevon Carter's "bulldog defense" (man... that was an annoying narrative tic. The guy is a good defender for being 6'1" but he ain't got Giannis and BroLo behind him here. And he's 6'1".
• Zach as the best, second best, third best? player on a contender

[Salo23]

1. The two big lineup was nothing special. We went on a run the first time, but we did it twice more in the 4th and it was a negative both times. A big reason it was a negative is that both our big guys are too damn slow. There's too much perimeter for the guards to defend, which is part of why the Cavs got so many open 3s. Definitely a couple of the Levert and one of the Dean Wade 3s were because Drummond and Vuc were totally unable to contest.

Our 2 big lineup sucks, Vuc/Drummond aren’t mobile enough defensively to play at the same time, they are both pure centers.

We have absolutely zero PF/C types who have both size and mobility. Our PF’s are built more like small forwards (Pat, Craig) and we are forced to play Caruso/DDR at PF due to injuries.

This drives me nuts because I feel AKME purposely constructed the roster like this and have done nothing to change it for several years now. We’ve had 6’5 DJJ, 6’5 Terry Taylor, 6’4 Javonte Green and 6’5 Caruso playing a lot of their minutes at C/PF.

When we first traded for Vuc he was actually still playing at an all-star level, we had bigs next to him who had both size and mobility to offset his shortcomings (Thad, Theis, Lauri).
Vuc also had more success when paired with Isaac / Gordon. He’s spent the majority of the last 2 seasons paired next to Javonte, P-Will, and now Caruso.

[Ice Man]

This drives me nuts because I feel AKME purposely constructed the roster like this and have done nothing to change it for several years now.

The irony is that as recently as 2017 we led the NBA in true power forwards. We began that year with Lauri, Niko, and Portis all on the roster -- three true #4s. Now we have zero.