PG: Bulls bumslay Grizz

[FriedRise]

Am I the only one enjoying watching this team?

This is what I have been waiting on. I don't believe in tanking and the idea our franchise guy is in the draft anymore. I believe in finding players putting them together finding a system and continuing to flip the roster until something begins to click and winning begins to happen. Then once that winning takes place find the holes and fill them without disrupting your core.

Right now it appears we have at least found the core that will compete and get some winning going. Now it's about the next phase, identifying the holes and filling them, adding quality players to help catapult us into a contending team. Then once you get the contending team it's simply about match ups and luck. Just how the NBA works which is why out of all these years the league has been in existence its still only a handful of franchises that have won titles.

Pretty much. The league isn't what it used to be. Parity all over, and they're also ensuring that there are no clear tankers by killing the lottery odds and introducing the play-in tournament, AND that there are no super teams with the new tax aprons in the CBA. Any team can beat anybody - even teams with a couple top 10/top 20 players can struggle too if you don't have a good supporting cast (just ask the Lakers).

Since Nov 30, we're:
- 5th best in the East in terms of Win %
- tied for 2nd in the East in terms of Wins
- 10-4 at home
- 6-5 on the road
- 10-3 in clutch games (#2 DRTG, #5 NRTG)

I enjoy it for what it is - a fun, competitive team who share the ball, defend, and won't quit - with Coby ascending as the lead PG who's been really fun to watch. Oh, and despite all the complaining about ISO ball, we actually don't play that way all that much.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

[Wingy]

Hey guys, Vuc made a joke! But nah, that’s Wingy. He’s just a regular poster.

I might be annoyed by this zinger if Zach meant more to my fandom. While I don’t remember everyone’s “record” on the matter, I mostly recall your takes since this drama broke out being pretty fair on both the pros and cons of Lavine.

[Stratmaster]

Pretty ugly, but up ahead pretty much 90% of the game. I recall many nights being down double-digits to the Pistons and Raptors, with Zach leading the way (literally, 51 points against Detroit in a 20 point loss). Quite obviously not a winning formula, letting Zach do his thing, if it meant getting blown out by one of the worst teams of all-time.

I think Zach's an excellent 1-dimensional player, but when you quit on your team with a trade demand with career low numbers, the team's record improves while you sit out, and then come back and continue to have some career-low stats... I'm sorry, but you're nothing but a distraction.

Quit on the team with a trade request? The team quit on him a year ago.


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There were times when I thought the team looked visibly frustrated with Zach (but not just with Zach) when he made bad decisions. But I never got the feeling that the team quit on Zach.

If anything, I think the team fell into the trap of doubling down on Zach play, thinking that's the right call, trusting Zach too much as core of the system. That's why I always blame this type of things on Billy for not liking to intervene, force things to break bad cycles. He tried to bench Zach once and then after that he's afraid to do it again. We could've reached this point much earlier, and probably cheaper if Billy coach harder.

"The team" has been trying to trade him for a year. The players are a different story. Zach didn't quit on his fellow players. He tried to adjust his game to let Coby be the man. He has always been Coby's biggest fan. And I don't think the players have quit on him. Except maybe Demar. Vuc is fine with things as long as everything runs through him lol

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[Stratmaster]

The 1st half was hard to watch, but the 2nd half, the good/December Bulls came back, regardless of the joke competition. IMO it's still a bad idea starting Vuc and Demar. Honestly, Billy's square rotations are still frustrating. They are so untimely. I genuinely wish we hired Carlisle, but he inconveniently left the Mavs shortly after Billy was hired.

Strat, I don't know what to tell you. I get that you're a Zach fan, but the team has played a cumulative 1, maybe 3 months of "good" basketball with him on the Bulls, in over 6 years, with a variety of characters. Lonzo and Thad were his best teammates. Maybe that's the recipe for his success, but regardless, those guys just had good short stints, and everybody benefitted from them until they didn't.

If that's not indicative of an underwhelming max player, then I don't know what is. Harden, George, and even Beal have carried short-handed scrub teams to more consistent playoff results.. although Beal's prior 3 years in DC are a fair comparison to Zach, where the game/health/leadership all declined, and in the end, the team was no better or worse off without him. Whatever the case is, he looks like a fool for demanding a trade and having absolutely no market for him. He could've gone about it quietly, but he decided to act like he's Anthony Davis, while putting up stats comparable to Caris LeVert.

It's not like Demar took the ball away from Zach. Zach didn't set himself apart as the better closer, nor as a better defender, nor as a better ball-handler. And now, I'm quite certain a lot of it is mental/chemistry/emotional, but the team looks better when Zach is not in the game. When Coby and Ayo get going, the energy on both ends is better. It also just allows us to play a more defensive role-player on the wings, whether it's small with Caruso/Ayo or big with Pat/Terry, which benefits our god awful front-court defense.

A max player takes up a 1/3rd of the cap, so you should theoretically be able to beat lowly teams with him and no help. IMO he had some decent attempts at help over the years. Didn't work out, and the Lonzo injury really hurt him more than anything. All I'm saying, is he had and his agent had no right to demand a trade the first week of the season. If that was gonna be his play, he should've done it in the summer, before training camp. Show up to practice demanding a trade, like Jimmy, playing his ass off and humiliating everybody in practice. He completely ****ed over the FO, his players and the coaching staff by doing that.

You just wrote a book about Lavine. My last comments to you before you posted this had nothing to do with Lavine. Why are you referencing me?

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[Stratmaster]

but the team looks better when Zach is not in the game. When Coby and Ayo get going, the energy on both ends is better. It also just allows us to play a more defensive role-player on the wings, whether it's small with Caruso/Ayo or big with Pat/Terry, which benefits our god awful front-court defense.

You’re seriously going to take something from this literal (see my post above) snooze fest?

Flip Zach and DeMar and things look the same. Perhaps even better since Zach can actually space the floor and shoot 3s.

I’m not even particularly fond of Zach, though I’m sure I sound like a big fan lately. The thought of Zach as one of my “favorite Bulls” has never entered my mind, but the Zach assassination that’s flipped on the board is insane.

We look “better” playing against ass and/or injured teams. Coby has continued to play well since Zach came back. Guess what? Pat isn’t some revelation after all that was held back by Zach. He’s clock work - if he gets minutes, it’s 10-11 shots a game no matter who is in or out of the lineup. Ayo’s an inconsistent late rotation role player that gets his praises sung when he plays well, and is hardly mentioned when he stinks (Chicago armor).

Trade Zach for value. I won’t shed any tears if AK can make it happen. But the one man scapegoating show going on this board is pretty comical when we look at the body of “evidence” that’s being used.

Players are human. Ayo and Coby, Vuc visibly like Demar more. I don't know what to tell you, but sometimes guys just don't like playing under other guys.

Well... yeah. Players are human. I mean... Zach is human. What's your point?

Coby and Zach are supposedly besties and have been for years now. Where are you getting your information?

How did Vic visibly show he likes Demar better?

Who even gives ficks who likes who. Is this high school or a profession where young men make millions of dollars? Do you only perform well at work with the people you like better?

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[Stratmaster]

Players are human. Ayo and Coby, Vuc visibly like Demar more. I don't know what to tell you, but sometimes guys just don't like playing under other guys.

Why is that surprising? DeMar is the oldest guy on the team and no one would argue he isn’t the better mentor. He’s friends with Vuc from their USC days, of course Vuc likes him better. He’s a more accomplished and more respected player who had the benefit of playing his entire career with two strong championship organizations.

It’s certainly understandable if people enjoy the aesthetics and style of play better when Zach’s not around, but thinking we’re this markedly better team in terms of results without him is where people are lying to themselves to prop up their aesthetic preference.

I pointed it out during the ‘streak’ how weak and injured the competition was, but hardly anyone would hear it. Those posts were ignored, though a few amusingly argued the competition was strong!

Of course guys like Ayo have more fun when they get to move up the chain. Does that make Zach some cancer because he rightfully pushes guys down the rungs?

Zach has been shopped by this FO for how long now? Basically being the fall guy for AK’s utter lack of team-building competence.

He gets benched by Billy for an off night, but Vucebrick goes out there and tortures our eyes with impunity game after game after game…on both ends of the floor…while a very competent alternative rots on the pine. Yet when was the last time you saw that mother ****er get benched???

All the players have seen this experiment fail twice already (immediately post Lonzo injury, then last season), only to see their crazy ass FO run it back again. I’m sure Zach feels the square peg, round hole as strongly as anyone. He knows this group and the 3 doesn’t work.

You posted “players are human.” Consider that when you wonder why Zach wants to be traded and would be miserable playing for this clown show, ring of shame franchise.

He should've made the trade demand in July.

Huh?

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[Stratmaster]

Players are human. Ayo and Coby, Vuc visibly like Demar more. I don't know what to tell you, but sometimes guys just don't like playing under other guys.

Why is that surprising? DeMar is the oldest guy on the team and no one would argue he isn’t the better mentor. He’s friends with Vuc from their USC days, of course Vuc likes him better. He’s a more accomplished and more respected player who had the benefit of playing his entire career with two strong championship organizations.

It’s certainly understandable if people enjoy the aesthetics and style of play better when Zach’s not around, but thinking we’re this markedly better team in terms of results without him is where people are lying to themselves to prop up their aesthetic preference.

I pointed it out during the ‘streak’ how weak and injured the competition was, but hardly anyone would hear it. Those posts were ignored, though a few amusingly argued the competition was strong!

Of course guys like Ayo have more fun when they get to move up the chain. Does that make Zach some cancer because he rightfully pushes guys down the rungs?

Zach has been shopped by this FO for how long now? Basically being the fall guy for AK’s utter lack of team-building competence.

He gets benched by Billy for an off night, but Vucebrick goes out there and tortures our eyes with impunity game after game after game…on both ends of the floor…while a very competent alternative rots on the pine. Yet when was the last time you saw that mother ****er get benched???

All the players have seen this experiment fail twice already (immediately post Lonzo injury, then last season), only to see their crazy ass FO run it back again. I’m sure Zach feels the square peg, round hole as strongly as anyone. He knows this group and the 3 doesn’t work.

You posted “players are human.” Consider that when you wonder why Zach wants to be traded and would be miserable playing for this clown show, ring of shame franchise.

Zach is that you ?

He's not wrong. In fact, he's pretty much spot on.

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[Stratmaster]

Zach is that you ?

Where is any of it actually wrong?

Again, I’m not even all that fond of Lavine. The single player finger-pointing is ridiculous.

Lol. I just posted "he's not wrong" to chitown then read this

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[Stratmaster]

Why is that surprising? DeMar is the oldest guy on the team and no one would argue he isn’t the better mentor. He’s friends with Vuc from their USC days, of course Vuc likes him better. He’s a more accomplished and more respected player who had the benefit of playing his entire career with two strong championship organizations.

It’s certainly understandable if people enjoy the aesthetics and style of play better when Zach’s not around, but thinking we’re this markedly better team in terms of results without him is where people are lying to themselves to prop up their aesthetic preference.

I pointed it out during the ‘streak’ how weak and injured the competition was, but hardly anyone would hear it. Those posts were ignored, though a few amusingly argued the competition was strong!

Of course guys like Ayo have more fun when they get to move up the chain. Does that make Zach some cancer because he rightfully pushes guys down the rungs?

Zach has been shopped by this FO for how long now? Basically being the fall guy for AK’s utter lack of team-building competence.

He gets benched by Billy for an off night, but Vucebrick goes out there and tortures our eyes with impunity game after game after game…on both ends of the floor…while a very competent alternative rots on the pine. Yet when was the last time you saw that mother ****er get benched???

All the players have seen this experiment fail twice already (immediately post Lonzo injury, then last season), only to see their crazy ass FO run it back again. I’m sure Zach feels the square peg, round hole as strongly as anyone. He knows this group and the 3 doesn’t work.

You posted “players are human.” Consider that when you wonder why Zach wants to be traded and would be miserable playing for this clown show, ring of shame franchise.

He should've made the trade demand in July.

or better yet he could've left in free agency . I cant believe someone is blaming everybody else for a max player not showing up and playing hard. If Zach has Wingys attitude and was acting this way behind the scenes no wonder everyone wants him gone

When did anyone say he wasn't playing hard? Is that what you are are saying? That Zach isn't trying? Because the evidence is the exact opposite. That whether healthy or not Lavine has done everything possible to try to help the team. He has cut his shot attempts down (and he did that before the first injury). Tried to be more of a facilitator. Put more of his energy into defense and rebounding.

What is it you would have liked to see him do?

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[Stratmaster]

All of its wrong as its simply deflection

You just blamed everyone else for his play when the bulls waited 2 1/2 years for him to give us what hes given us this year

Who’s talking about his play?

1. I highlighted why it makes sense that he wants out.

2. The team isn’t somehow this new winning group without him.

But it doesn't make any sense why he wants out but it certainly makes sense why they would want him gone because everyone simply is tired of waiting on him to get it. This guy has been babied since he arrived and got paid the max while injured and not having produced one winning season.

The rest of the team doesn't have to be some new winning group without him they just have to be together and play hard and as we have have see thats enough for to put them on the path to winning more they lose. Are you more upset that the coached took you out of a game when you were 1-14 i Oct 2023 or are you upset that youve only bee to playoffs once in your career and you are gonna do whatever you can to win games ?

Ill simply let Samurai Mike finish this for me

Watch on YouTube

Explain how Lavine has somehow been babied since he became a Bull.

This one I got to hear.

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[Stratmaster]

There are 82 games in the season, not every one is gonna be an exciting nailbiter. This was one of those games.

I honestly don’t care if the other team is missing their entire starting lineup + a couple bench guys. We consistently have been playing with at least $65M in street clothes. I’ll take any W I can get.

I personally wanna see if they can take the 8th seed and go above .500. That’ll be a miracle for a team that looked the way they did to start the season.

Magic face the Heat tomorrow and then Cleveland Monday - 2 likely Ls there. If we can beat Phoenix on Monday (their 3rd game in 4 nights), we’ll just be half a game back from 8th and 1 away from .500. Gotta just keep taking care of business, the next 3 are super winnable.

Oh they can definitely take the 8 seed and get above .500. I even think they will.

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[Stratmaster]

Phoenix is a .500 team at home. But they have been playing well.

Lakers are falling apart.

Portland is 7-12 at home.

I expect they will lose to either Phoenix or LA

Au contraire mon frère!!!

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2349664

Lol. Read the comments. They are funny. And just like this board... totally opposite ends of the spectrum.

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[BullChit]

Am I the only one enjoying watching this team?

This is what I have been waiting on. I don't believe in tanking and the idea our franchise guy is in the draft anymore. I believe in finding players putting them together finding a system and continuing to flip the roster until something begins to click and winning begins to happen. Then once that winning takes place find the holes and fill them without disrupting your core.

Right now it appears we have at least found the core that will compete and get some winning going. Now it's about the next phase, identifying the holes and filling them, adding quality players to help catapult us into a contending team. Then once you get the contending team it's simply about match ups and luck. Just how the NBA works which is why out of all these years the league has been in existence its still only a handful of franchises that have won titles.

Pretty much. The league isn't what it used to be. Parity all over, and they're also ensuring that there are no clear tankers by killing the lottery odds and introducing the play-in tournament, AND that there are no super teams with the new tax aprons in the CBA. Any team can beat anybody - even teams with a couple top 10/top 20 players can struggle too if you don't have a good supporting cast (just ask the Lakers).

Since Nov 30, we're:
- 5th best in the East in terms of Win %
- tied for 2nd in the East in terms of Wins
- 10-4 at home
- 6-5 on the road
- 10-3 in clutch games (#2 DRTG, #5 NRTG)

I enjoy it for what it is - a fun, competitive team who share the ball, defend, and won't quit - with Coby ascending as the lead PG who's been really fun to watch. Oh, and despite all the complaining about ISO ball, we actually don't play that way all that much.

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Yeah but if we don't a league changing decade defining dynasty right this second why enjoy any of it in any way....

[BullChit]

Phoenix is a .500 team at home. But they have been playing well.

Lakers are falling apart.

Portland is 7-12 at home.

I expect they will lose to either Phoenix or LA

Au contraire mon frère!!!

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2349664

Lol. Read the comments. They are funny. And just like this board... totally opposite ends of the spectrum.

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Haha exactly what I thought...

The NBA fan spectrum of optimism to pessimism starts at the Lakers on one end and the Bulls all the way on the other haha

[HearshotKDS]

Game is over and the Bulls won by 29. Game thread is on its 4th page. AKME killed the Bulls realgm.com board.

For me personally, I just cant escape apathy and the feeling like this is a dead end team. Feels like there are less than 5 players on the team now that will still be on the team when they start taking building a consistent winner seriously. There's barely even youth to watch develop, its Coby and then Flat Pat who unless I watch really carefully looks the same as when we got him in 2020. Feels like NBA purgatory, ill get excited again close to draft time since the BUlls thankfully actually have a pick this year.

[Mk0]

Am I the only one enjoying watching this team?

I don't mind watching this team, probably more entertaining than last season. This game however was just ugh. Rather watch the 49ers/Packers.

My power was out from 1pm-3am yesterday. My phone was dead and I was only able to stream the Niners game once my wife got home and I could borrow her phone.

I was able to keep track of the Bulls score for a bit until my phone crapped out, but I don't feel like I missed much.

That Niners/Packers game though.. oh my lord. I thought I was going to have a heart attack.

[TyrusRose2425]

Game is over and the Bulls won by 29. Game thread is on its 4th page. AKME killed the Bulls realgm.com board.

tbh I just don't love the new NBA of running up and down the floor and shooting 3s. I prefer the mix of different play styles all clashing and seeing how they adjust. I've grown to prefer college basketball these days.

[RealFan]

Game is over and the Bulls won by 29. Game thread is on its 4th page. AKME killed the Bulls realgm.com board.

tbh I just don't love the new NBA of running up and down the floor and shooting 3s. I prefer the mix of different play styles all clashing and seeing how they adjust. I've grown to prefer college basketball these days.

Couldn’t agree more. I think I watch more YT highlights of the MJ era Bulls than I do this year’s team (although I do tune in every now and then).

[MikeDC]

Very costly for the organization. Good riddance to him for his error in judgment. He created a lot of drama and distraction in the first month of the season, and basically derailed the year.

If he regrets the demand, then he should play his ass off instead of posting career low stats in every category. A great player should not have this hard a time fitting onto any team, even with a bruised knee. He makes $45m, not $20m or 27 like DeVuc.

Go with your disdain, you’re entitled to fan however you see it. I’ve argued plenty on behalf of a player I don’t even like that much. The things that bug you are probably why. I take them in and don’t see a particularly likable guy. On the other hand, I don’t dislike him, and certainly don’t see him as some villain like much of the board does now.

The man who derailed the season, and the franchise is actually Arturas Karnisovas.

I don't think he's a villain or anything, but the bolded part is a big deal. The internet makes everyone a contrarian, even against their own better judgement. Your better judgement is that you don't like him much. Being a fan shouldn't be some kind of dissociative disorder where we're compelled to defend guys we don't like the way people do with politicians. The whole point of being a fan is to have fun and enjoy it, and cheering for a guy who isn't very likable is not very fun.

[NecessaryEvil]

Game is over and the Bulls won by 29. Game thread is on its 4th page. AKME killed the Bulls realgm.com board.

For me personally, I just cant escape apathy and the feeling like this is a dead end team. Feels like there are less than 5 players on the team now that will still be on the team when they start taking building a consistent winner seriously. There's barely even youth to watch develop, its Coby and then Flat Pat who unless I watch really carefully looks the same as when we got him in 2020. Feels like NBA purgatory, ill get excited again close to draft time since the BUlls thankfully actually have a pick this year.

I wish I could get excited about a Bulls draft pick

This front office absolutely SUCKS at drafting

There's no point