RealGM

Dan Z wrote:

madvillian wrote:

HomoSapien wrote:
The Lauri trade stings, especially as we watch Vuc brick three-pointer after three-pointer. I wanted Lauri coming out of that draft and thought he looked like a franchise cornerstone after his first two seasons. But after that, he dropped the ball. He stopped progressing, looked passive, and oftentimes took steps backward. Maybe some blame goes to our coaching or even to Zach, but I think a large part of the blame is on Lauri. Sometimes guys just need a change of scenery, and Lauri seems to be an example of that.

The big lesson to learn from this is that we need to be more patient with our young guys. Most of the board wanted to trade Coby and let Ayo walk in free-agency. Can you imagine how suicidal this fanbase would be if that's what happened? I think Pat has been extremely disappointing, but at this point we might as well be patient with him and hope he's just a slow developer.

As for Carter, I still think he's awful. The guy is perpetually injured and though he's seen as a defender was regularly giving up season highs to the opposing center while he was here. The issue wasn't trading him. That was the right call. The issue was including such poorly protected picks.

I'm a pretty similar mindset. Carter was no big loss, although as a decent young and cheapish player it was a lose nonetheless. The real crime was including the draft capital and then resigning Vuc when it was obvious (even at the time many fans saw it) he should have been dealt before his deal expired and we paid through the roof for a 40 win ceiling.

My issues with the Vucevic trade are two things:

The protections on the picks. I bet that both the Bulls and Magic made that trade thinking that the Bulls would make the playoffs that season. With that in mind why not protect the first pick just in case things go badly? I bet the Magic still make the deal.

And two...AK chose Vuc over Lauri. I know this is hindsight, but he gave up on a young big, with potential, for a vet who is (or was) a good player but not a star. On top of that he cost assets to acquire. The better bet, IMO, is try to figure out how to maximize what Lauri can do (as he's already on your team and had moments where he played well).

HomoSapien wrote:

Dan Z wrote:

madvillian wrote:
I'm a pretty similar mindset. Carter was no big loss, although as a decent young and cheapish player it was a lose nonetheless. The real crime was including the draft capital and then resigning Vuc when it was obvious (even at the time many fans saw it) he should have been dealt before his deal expired and we paid through the roof for a 40 win ceiling.

My issues with the Vucevic trade are two things:

The protections on the picks. I bet that both the Bulls and Magic made that trade thinking that the Bulls would make the playoffs that season. With that in mind why not protect the first pick just in case things go badly? I bet the Magic still make the deal.

And two...AK chose Vuc over Lauri. I know this is hindsight, but he gave up on a young big, with potential, for a vet who is (or was) a good player but not a star. On top of that he cost assets to acquire. The better bet, IMO, is try to figure out how to maximize what Lauri can do (as he's already on your team and had moments where he played well).

If I remember correctly, AKME were really close to trading Lauri for Ball that deadline too. If we would've walked away with Vuc, Ball, and Theis I think we would have felt pretty awesome about our deadline. Ball really was the key to it all. And totally agree on the protections. It really should have either been one pick with top 5 protections or two picks with like top 10-12 protections.

bledredwine wrote:AK swung hard and he missed hard.

It’s terrible but IF we had picks, I would have more faith in him than Gar Pax.

The problem is, we don’t have those picks.

Pretty much every player we acquired tanked in value. What the hell is up with that? And we should have traded Zach long ago.

Dan Z wrote:

bledredwine wrote:AK swung hard and he missed hard.

It’s terrible but IF we had picks, I would have more faith in him than Gar Pax.

The problem is, we don’t have those picks.

Pretty much every player we acquired tanked in value. What the hell is up with that? And we should have traded Zach long ago.

You trust AK's drafting over Paxsons?

The Bulls do have picks, but owe one to the Spurs (2025 protected 1-10).

PaKii94 wrote:

step wrote:

PaKii94 wrote:
You're mixing up WCJ and Lauri. Lauri asked for more touches but there was never anything about position.

WCJ wanted to play the perimeter more and less big (since in the boylen offense the perimeter had the touches priority)

Strat is somewhat right, position with Lauri was definitely a thing. Management tried to get him to bulk up more thinking he could be a mobile 5, while he did view himself more on the wing and there were from recollection a few puff pieces where he voiced that.

Adding to why he isn't here... well I think we all have opinions here.

Position was a thing with Lauri in the sense that he didn't see himself as a bruising 7ft bigman that the previous regime tried to turn him into. He didn't specifically ask to play the 3. He was already playing his ideal 4 position. He just wasn't getting touches as the #4.

The person who specifically talked about a position change was WCJ

https://pippenainteasy.com/2020/04/02/chicago-bulls-wendell-carter-jr-openly-requests-position-change-power-forward/

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bulls/2020/3/31/21201252/player-breakdowns-bulls-wendell-carter-jr-position-change

SalmonsSuperfan wrote:I don't hate that he tried to hit a home run by adding Vuc, Lonzo and DeRozan. It's too bad it didn't work. What bothers me is the unwillingness to move on from it. why are any of "the big 4" still on the team (barring untradeable lonzo)? why are all of them still here? Also annoyed by the Lauri fleecing and unwillingness to trade Pat, basically just losing every trade and not trading guys at the height of their value; but overall just dismayed by the general direction of the team. They've committed to treadmilling for the play-in and maybe to making some marginal moves to improve to a solid 6th seed/first round exit.

Stratmaster wrote:

PaKii94 wrote:

step wrote:Strat is somewhat right, position with Lauri was definitely a thing. Management tried to get him to bulk up more thinking he could be a mobile 5, while he did view himself more on the wing and there were from recollection a few puff pieces where he voiced that.

Adding to why he isn't here... well I think we all have opinions here.

Position was a thing with Lauri in the sense that he didn't see himself as a bruising 7ft bigman that the previous regime tried to turn him into. He didn't specifically ask to play the 3. He was already playing his ideal 4 position. He just wasn't getting touches as the #4.

The person who specifically talked about a position change was WCJ

https://pippenainteasy.com/2020/04/02/chicago-bulls-wendell-carter-jr-openly-requests-position-change-power-forward/

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bulls/2020/3/31/21201252/player-breakdowns-bulls-wendell-carter-jr-position-change

Pretty sure they both did. Thus my comment.

PaKii94 wrote:

Stratmaster wrote:

PaKii94 wrote:
Position was a thing with Lauri in the sense that he didn't see himself as a bruising 7ft bigman that the previous regime tried to turn him into. He didn't specifically ask to play the 3. He was already playing his ideal 4 position. He just wasn't getting touches as the #4.

The person who specifically talked about a position change was WCJ

https://pippenainteasy.com/2020/04/02/chicago-bulls-wendell-carter-jr-openly-requests-position-change-power-forward/

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bulls/2020/3/31/21201252/player-breakdowns-bulls-wendell-carter-jr-position-change

Pretty sure they both did. Thus my comment.

Now you are making stuff up. You know my obsession with Lauri. I would remember if he said anything about changing positions. Post any reputable source backing up this claim

Stratmaster wrote:

PaKii94 wrote:

Stratmaster wrote:
Pretty sure they both did. Thus my comment.

Now you are making stuff up. You know my obsession with Lauri. I would remember if he said anything about changing positions. Post any reputable source backing up this claim

Lauri's dad before he came to the NBA: "If [a coach] tried to put Lauri under the basket, we changed the team," Pekka said. "If you play under the basket your whole career when you handle the ball, it's going to be extremely difficult." Lauri played guard most of his youth, and he's not just a big man who wants to play on the perimeter; he's effective there. He's already buried an Arizona team-best 27 threes.

Also Lauri's dad: “I would say the biggest thing is Lauri is a four, and he can also play the three position"

Lauri in an interview w/JJ Reddick on why he is having so much success with Utah: "It's the opportunity......I'm bringing the ball up, handling the ball in the pick and roll and I hadn't been doing that much in the NBA......I think it changed a little bit in Cleveland when I got to play Small Forward and it allowed me to play on the perimeter....."

I mean, when asked why he is so successful now the first thing he mentions is "playing SF"

bledredwine wrote:

Dan Z wrote:

bledredwine wrote:AK swung hard and he missed hard.

It’s terrible but IF we had picks, I would have more faith in him than Gar Pax.

The problem is, we don’t have those picks.

Pretty much every player we acquired tanked in value. What the hell is up with that? And we should have traded Zach long ago.

You trust AK's drafting over Paxsons?

The Bulls do have picks, but owe one to the Spurs (2025 protected 1-10).

Yes. I include his Denver tenure as well.

Stratmaster wrote:

PaKii94 wrote:

Stratmaster wrote:
Pretty sure they both did. Thus my comment.

Now you are making stuff up. You know my obsession with Lauri. I would remember if he said anything about changing positions. Post any reputable source backing up this claim

Lauri's dad before he came to the NBA: "If [a coach] tried to put Lauri under the basket, we changed the team," Pekka said. "If you play under the basket your whole career when you handle the ball, it's going to be extremely difficult." Lauri played guard most of his youth, and he's not just a big man who wants to play on the perimeter; he's effective there. He's already buried an Arizona team-best 27 threes.

Also Lauri's dad: “I would say the biggest thing is Lauri is a four, and he can also play the three position"

Lauri in an interview w/JJ Reddick on why he is having so much success with Utah: "It's the opportunity......I'm bringing the ball up, handling the ball in the pick and roll and I hadn't been doing that much in the NBA......I think it changed a little bit in Cleveland when I got to play Small Forward and it allowed me to play on the perimeter....."

I mean, when asked why he is so successful now the first thing he mentions is "playing SF"

PaKii94 wrote:

Stratmaster wrote:

PaKii94 wrote:
Now you are making stuff up. You know my obsession with Lauri. I would remember if he said anything about changing positions. Post any reputable source backing up this claim

Lauri's dad before he came to the NBA: "If [a coach] tried to put Lauri under the basket, we changed the team," Pekka said. "If you play under the basket your whole career when you handle the ball, it's going to be extremely difficult." Lauri played guard most of his youth, and he's not just a big man who wants to play on the perimeter; he's effective there. He's already buried an Arizona team-best 27 threes.

Also Lauri's dad: “I would say the biggest thing is Lauri is a four, and he can also play the three position"

Lauri in an interview w/JJ Reddick on why he is having so much success with Utah: "It's the opportunity......I'm bringing the ball up, handling the ball in the pick and roll and I hadn't been doing that much in the NBA......I think it changed a little bit in Cleveland when I got to play Small Forward and it allowed me to play on the perimeter....."

I mean, when asked why he is so successful now the first thing he mentions is "playing SF"

Everyone and their mothers besides the FO could see Lauri was more of a big wing vs a traditional big man.

His father said his position is the 4 (which he played) but can also play the 3 because he's a big wing.

Lauri with the Reddick interview says Utah/CLE let him play perimeter oriented ball.

None of that is proof of Lauri requesting to play the 3 as a bull. That's conjecture on your part

Again the only proof we have is Lauri requesting more touches.

Dan Z wrote:

PaKii94 wrote:

Stratmaster wrote:
Lauri's dad before he came to the NBA: "If [a coach] tried to put Lauri under the basket, we changed the team," Pekka said. "If you play under the basket your whole career when you handle the ball, it's going to be extremely difficult." Lauri played guard most of his youth, and he's not just a big man who wants to play on the perimeter; he's effective there. He's already buried an Arizona team-best 27 threes.

Also Lauri's dad: “I would say the biggest thing is Lauri is a four, and he can also play the three position"

Lauri in an interview w/JJ Reddick on why he is having so much success with Utah: "It's the opportunity......I'm bringing the ball up, handling the ball in the pick and roll and I hadn't been doing that much in the NBA......I think it changed a little bit in Cleveland when I got to play Small Forward and it allowed me to play on the perimeter....."

I mean, when asked why he is so successful now the first thing he mentions is "playing SF"

Everyone and their mothers besides the FO could see Lauri was more of a big wing vs a traditional big man.

His father said his position is the 4 (which he played) but can also play the 3 because he's a big wing.

Lauri with the Reddick interview says Utah/CLE let him play perimeter oriented ball.

None of that is proof of Lauri requesting to play the 3 as a bull. That's conjecture on your part

Again the only proof we have is Lauri requesting more touches.

I know I'm basically replying about this twice, but reading those quotes makes me shake my head.

The Bulls front office traded their best player (Butler) for assets. Why didn't they do whatever they could to maximize the players they got in the deal? I'm sure they read the quote from his dad and could look at the statistics. I know this is one reason why GarPax was fired.

Did AK/Billy try Markkanen on the perimeter a bit? I can't remember, but I want to say no...? It seems like AK never had faith in Markkanen and moved on.

jnrjr79 wrote:

Dan Z wrote:

PaKii94 wrote:
Everyone and their mothers besides the FO could see Lauri was more of a big wing vs a traditional big man.

His father said his position is the 4 (which he played) but can also play the 3 because he's a big wing.

Lauri with the Reddick interview says Utah/CLE let him play perimeter oriented ball.

None of that is proof of Lauri requesting to play the 3 as a bull. That's conjecture on your part

Again the only proof we have is Lauri requesting more touches.

I know I'm basically replying about this twice, but reading those quotes makes me shake my head.

The Bulls front office traded their best player (Butler) for assets. Why didn't they do whatever they could to maximize the players they got in the deal? I'm sure they read the quote from his dad and could look at the statistics. I know this is one reason why GarPax was fired.

Did AK/Billy try Markkanen on the perimeter a bit? I can't remember, but I want to say no...? It seems like AK never had faith in Markkanen and moved on.

Markkanen played on the perimeter *a ton*, but not in the way you've seen him have success in Utah. He got relegated to being, more or less, a catch and shoot player. He didn't have the ball in his hands the way he does these days. it always perturbed me given how good Lauri was at putting the ball on the floor and slashing.

Dan Z wrote:

PaKii94 wrote:

Stratmaster wrote:
Lauri's dad before he came to the NBA: "If [a coach] tried to put Lauri under the basket, we changed the team," Pekka said. "If you play under the basket your whole career when you handle the ball, it's going to be extremely difficult." Lauri played guard most of his youth, and he's not just a big man who wants to play on the perimeter; he's effective there. He's already buried an Arizona team-best 27 threes.

Also Lauri's dad: “I would say the biggest thing is Lauri is a four, and he can also play the three position"

Lauri in an interview w/JJ Reddick on why he is having so much success with Utah: "It's the opportunity......I'm bringing the ball up, handling the ball in the pick and roll and I hadn't been doing that much in the NBA......I think it changed a little bit in Cleveland when I got to play Small Forward and it allowed me to play on the perimeter....."

I mean, when asked why he is so successful now the first thing he mentions is "playing SF"

Everyone and their mothers besides the FO could see Lauri was more of a big wing vs a traditional big man.

His father said his position is the 4 (which he played) but can also play the 3 because he's a big wing.

Lauri with the Reddick interview says Utah/CLE let him play perimeter oriented ball.

None of that is proof of Lauri requesting to play the 3 as a bull. That's conjecture on your part

Again the only proof we have is Lauri requesting more touches.

I know I'm basically replying about this twice, but reading those quotes makes me shake my head.

The Bulls front office traded their best player (Butler) for assets. Why didn't they do whatever they could to maximize the players they got in the deal? I'm sure they read the quote from his dad and could look at the statistics. I know this is one reason why GarPax was fired.

Did AK/Billy try Markkanen on the perimeter a bit? I can't remember, but I want to say no...? It seems like AK never had faith in Markkanen and moved on.

Dan Z wrote:

jnrjr79 wrote:

Dan Z wrote:
I know I'm basically replying about this twice, but reading those quotes makes me shake my head.

The Bulls front office traded their best player (Butler) for assets. Why didn't they do whatever they could to maximize the players they got in the deal? I'm sure they read the quote from his dad and could look at the statistics. I know this is one reason why GarPax was fired.

Did AK/Billy try Markkanen on the perimeter a bit? I can't remember, but I want to say no...? It seems like AK never had faith in Markkanen and moved on.

Markkanen played on the perimeter *a ton*, but not in the way you've seen him have success in Utah. He got relegated to being, more or less, a catch and shoot player. He didn't have the ball in his hands the way he does these days. it always perturbed me given how good Lauri was at putting the ball on the floor and slashing.

Was he perimeter oriented in college? If so, why didn't they see that?