Do you have a build around Coby & Pat plan?

[meekrab]

If a team is "'built around" Pat and Coby as in they are the best players on the team, that team would be worse than the Detroit Pistons and might not ever win a game of NBA basketball.

[DuckIII]

Yes

Ayo
Coby
Pat
Terry
a young center that can bite the rim

Roll the ball out there without roadblock coworkers and they'll figure it out.

That's a 15 win team.

I assume that’s part of the point.

[DuckIII]

Coby and Pat aren't guys you build around, they're guys you build with.

That’s right and I think this was sco’s intent in starting the thread anyway. I don’t think it’s to stand for the proposition that these are the foundational franchise players. Because he doesn’t think that and none of us thinks that.

Sco maybe you could tweak the title and we can avoid the semantic discussion?

[Clint Eastwood]

Hey, I have a steering wheel and a tire. How can I build a car with it?

On their upsides, Pat and Coby are probably 3rd and 4th bananas on a contending team. You don't really build around 3rd and 4th bananas.

The general question is: How can Chicago get a top 5 player to build around?

My answer with the current "no rebuild" mentality: I have no idea

Capspace: No
Trade: No, the Bulls will never have the assets to trump every other team in the NBA for a trade if a top 5 player comes available
Draft: No. Outside of absurd luck where you get a great player in the middle of the draft or drop down from 13 to 2 in the lottery, its not happening.

Thank you for defining “treadmill team” for those less informed.

[Clint Eastwood]

Yes

Ayo
Coby
Pat
Terry
a young center that can bite the rim

Roll the ball out there without roadblock coworkers and they'll figure it out.

I don’t see any scenario where I can root for or get behind a team that considers Dalen Terry in the top 4 players to build around…

[Mbrahv0528]

Coby ABSOLUTELY is a player you can build around. He MORE than passes the eye test. He's doing things this year he's NEVER done before on a now consistent basis. Look, I understand there are a lot of jaded Bulls fans on this board, but let's try and see the world glass half full once in a while?

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[Wingy]

Coby and Pat aren't guys you build around, they're guys you build with.

People get their heads completely wrapped around the axle when anyone says/writes “build around,” but switching the “around” with “with” is the distinction I’ve seen both of us make trying to avoid the cries of the fall off a cliff literalists.

Basically, all teams should be trying to collect and retain as many positive assets as possible, and as many of the most positive assets as possible.

At Coby and Pat’s ages, they are positive assets. Unless they can be moved for something even better, or can’t be resigned to a reasonable deal in Pat’s case, then of course we should keep trying to move our team forward with them.

[FriedRise]

The formula hasn't changed; start with a couple of stars and surround them with complementary pieces.

If both reach their ceilings, Coby and Pat will likely be a PG and SF - so you'll need a volume 3PT shooter at the 2, a tall 3&D at the 4, and a defensive C. The 2, 4, and 5 spots are essentially role players. The rest of the roster should be filled with prospects and 3&D vets.

But that's the thing; I don't think the FO has enough confidence in Coby and Pat to go all-in on a tear down plan like this, which is why they extended Vooch and are talking about extending DeMar. Coby has been showing it this year, but it's only been half a season. Meanwhile, Pat has more or less been the same player. If Pat were further along in his development, I think it would've been a no-brainer.

[Rose2Boozer]

Let's get a solid year of production from Coby White before we talk about building around him. As far as P Maybe is concerned, good friggin Lord. That would have to be the 2025 Cooper Flagg plan, who plays the same position as Williams. This roster makes my head hurt.

[Stratmaster]

Coby ABSOLUTELY is a player you can build around. He MORE than passes the eye test. He's doing things this year he's NEVER done before on a now consistent basis. Look, I understand there are a lot of jaded Bulls fans on this board, but let's try and see the world glass half full once in a while?

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He isn't doing anything he hasn't done before, other than turn the ball over at a higher rate.

Again, I like Coby. He's great. But he is absolutely not playing at an all-star or "build around" level.

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[ShouldaPaidBG]

Yes

Ayo
Coby
Pat
Terry
a young center that can bite the rim

Roll the ball out there without roadblock coworkers and they'll figure it out.

I don’t see any scenario where I can root for or get behind a team that considers Dalen Terry in the top 4 players to build around…

Ya I mean this is assuming they all reach their potential through repetitions. Physically, as in their builds and athleticism, the lineup isn't lacking anything.

Coby is the only one with an average wingspan. Ayo, Pat, and Terry are all proven defenders. We're able to switch on all fronts. Pat and Terry have 7 ft wingspans, Ayo's is 6'10. Plenty of length. Then our young center would obviously have legnth as well. There'd be no lack of verticality or rim protection, and our leakiest perimeter defender would be Coby, who isn't even bad anymore.

On offense you have 4 guys that can handle the ball and a center. You hope Ayo and Terry become knock down spot up shooters, at least 37% for both. Long way to go for Dalen but Ayo is already at 36.5. His form is decent. He's also comfortable running pick and rolls and is a good passer. Terry can dribble and pass, Pat can dribble and pass better than he's shown so far, and again, Coby. Center just has to be a lob threat and get boards.

Give Pat all of Demar's current volume and let him do whatever with all of those possessions, and I think you end up with an efficient 20ppg scorer with 4-5 assists.

The 4 non big men can take turns attacking from different angles, changing roles seamlessly. I think all of their shooting %s are currently suppressed due to the toxic situation they're stuck in, and once Zach and Demar are expunged we'll see them blossom into the new open spaces. We would be a high-energy 2 way team with ball handling at almost every position (idk what skills this hypothetical center will have). As long as the shooting is there, you can beat anyone that way. The defense with a solid rim protector and without old slow men messing up rotations will be better than any defense we've seen here yet, including the Lonzo games.

Maybe Lonzo is the center idk.

[Hangtime84]

Yes

Ayo
Coby
Pat
Terry
a young center that can bite the rim

Roll the ball out there without roadblock coworkers and they'll figure it out.

That's a 15 win team.

Better than the pistons I’ll tank it

[Guru]

2023-2024
Trade Lavine to Spurs
Return Johnson-Osman-McDermott-DPs

Trade Drummond to Lakers
Return Jaxson Hayes

2023-2024 Roster
1 White-Carter
2 Caruso-Ayo
3 DDR-Johnson-Terry
4 Williams-Craig
5 Vuc-Hayes

2024-2025 Roster
Re-sign DDR (Not re-signing him doesn't give us any new cap space right? So re-signing him gives us an asset to trade)
Draft Filipowski
Actively try to trade DDR and Vuc
1 White-Carter (Ball)
2 Caruso-Ayo
3 Johnson-Terry (DDR)
4 Williams-Craig-Phillips
5 Filipkowski-Hayes (VUC)

[kodo]

Detroit is built around Cade 4 wins. SAS is built around Wemby, 7 wins.

We have more Ws than either, but the hometown fan narrative that it's been Coby & Patrick is nothing but people bending reality to match their desires. It's been Derozan & Carushow. Derozan always gets the ball in clutch time.

If we ditch DDR & Vuc, we'll be worse than Detroit. I think that's reality, but if we get rid of the Derozan & Vuc training wheels, we'll at least be getting the draft picks we deserve. Right now we don't have much of a future core and we're not getting the picks we need.

[pipfan]

I will try

Trade DDR to Sixers for MMorris/Covington/'26 1st they're owed-fair deal and we send DeRozan to a contender
If no good deal comes for Lavine, keep him
Trade Caruso to OKC (lots of variations) and get Dieng (I like his prospects at the 4).

Run this year out-let's figure we add a #11 pick

Next year
CWhite/Ayo/Carter
Lavine/Ayo
PWill/Terry/Phillips
Dieng
Vuc

Plus the #11 pick (take the best big available). MAYBE Lavine builds some value in the 2nd half, and we can trade him at the draft.

Play out 2024-25 season and get PWill TONS of reps at the 3
Draft a stud in the 24/25 draft
Win title in 2030-31 season

Seems clear to me

[Dan Z]

IMO this FO has drastically undervalued shooting. If they continue going into year 5 of their build with raw 19% 3P prospects, thinking a shooting coach will get this thing rolling, then they’re gonna continue seeing a team that struggles to be better than 25th in offense.

Coby and Pat can shoot, but they still don’t shoot consistently well. They’re just about our best shooters, short of 6’1 Jevon who can’t buy a minute anymore. I’ve got a 12 month time clock for them to address this, otherwise, I’m sincerely done with the Bulls. When Arturas said he planned on making a fun team to watch that ran, passed and shot well, he amazingly lied about all 3 things.

This is the first year in my life that I have just skipped on almost every single Bulls game and not bothered to even follow up on highlights or box scores. I’ll tune in for 5 minutes, and if Coby/Ayo are having a nice game I’ll stick around, but otherwise, this is just the saltiest basketball product around. I honestly prefer watching Poole and Kuzma atleast make a cartoon out of the game.

The idea of developing athletic lanky prospects is nice and all, but we have 3/4 of the roster incapable of making a wide open 3. Re-balance your theory. Man.

The unfortunate thing is they got rid of one of the best shooters that the team had (Lauri Markkanen).

[dabig3]

I think a team where Pat is your 3 of the future and Coby is your 1a guy has a very hard ceiling. This isn't the eastern conference of the 2010s.
And I don't want these guys to be tank commanders, I want them to help the team finally be a threat in the playoffs for the first time in a decade.

I'm not even saying get rid of them, or even to not even have both as your starters for the foreseeable future, but it isn't just keep them and fill out the team with draft picks and veteran role players while you pray to your god something great happens before their contracts are up - assuming Pat gets re-signed this summer.

[Bandit King]

Dump pat keep coby.

[Dan Z]

Hey, I have a steering wheel and a tire. How can I build a car with it?

On their upsides, Pat and Coby are probably 3rd and 4th bananas on a contending team. You don't really build around 3rd and 4th bananas.

The general question is: How can Chicago get a top 5 player to build around?

My answer with the current "no rebuild" mentality: I have no idea

Capspace: No
Trade: No, the Bulls will never have the assets to trump every other team in the NBA for a trade if a top 5 player comes available
Draft: No. Outside of absurd luck where you get a great player in the middle of the draft or drop down from 13 to 2 in the lottery, its not happening.

I agree with you. They could try to trade for a young player who hasn't fulfilled his potential and, for whatever reason, might be undervalued at that moment.

Players such as Jonathan Kuminga, AJ Griffin and Tre Mann come to mind. Kuminga is getting minutes, and doing well, so I have my doubts that GS would be willing to trade him. The other two are young players who are on teams with deep rosters, but if they were good then they'd be playing more minutes than they do. Off the top of my head I can't think of anyone else to add to this list. I also have my doubts that any of these players turn into a star, which means at best this adds a quality player to the roster, but not one you build around.

I say this and I can't think of a trade where something like this worked on in a big way (maybe not big...but worked out very well). Maybe Jermaine O'Neal when the Pacers got him? Even that trade cost Dale Davis (solid PF).

[MrSparkle]

Here's the bottom-line: a team where your 1 & 2 are Coby/Pat means that you get about 3 years of top-10 picks to draft, while those two maybe develop into excellent leaders/glue guys.

The thing is, I kind of don't see any alternatives to that. We are literally a better team with our "best" player (Zach) not playing: he's pretty much a toasted asset. Demar and Vuc should be chasing some rings on MLE (or vet. min. once the fog really clears).

It would be absolutely shocking if AK tried to ride this carriage into November with "playoffs" (2025) on his mind. He firmly needs to make the trades that put the best roster out there in 24/25, and I can quite confidently say that Zach, Demar and Vuc should not start on a playoff team right now, unless they're the 5th option. Kind of like Kevin Love- who mind you, fetched the Cavs a big nothing (a buy out).