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Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls

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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#21 » by dougthonus » Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:48 pm

HomoSapien wrote:Regarding Phil's rep: I think Phil's had some moments lately that haven't looked great. Between the LeBron posse comment, his initial comment that seemed dismissive about social justice, and Pippen calling him a racist... it's been rough for the old man. I think there's a perception that he's out of touch and frankly, he probably is. Dude is 78. Most of us will be out of touch when we reach that age. But I also think his comments have been interpreted in an overly sensitive way that ignores the intention of the comment. And even Pippen later admitted that Phil's not racist.


Racism is such a weird topic in this country filled with so many landmines and contradictions that so much of the way people try to help the situation actually makes it so much worse.

In a parallel which is unrelated but illustrative (IMO anyway), I work in IT and am involved with security policy. One strategy for security is punishing people who failed your internal security tests by making them do extra training or public shaming in order to convince them to do better. It's a commonly implemented policy at many companies. The downside is now people have such a negative view of security that they won't report legitimate incidents because they are afraid of shame/punishment. The outcome is that the company is far more at risk. People are more careful in some ways with the first policy, but you have opened up greater and different risks.

Our over reactive nature now towards punishing any type of discussion about racism and branding people as racist and canceling them is that people who have nuanced views that may be open to changing or accepting more conversation about them will not actually ever have those discussions because they are just too fraught with risk and no upside. People are more careful about what they say publicly with these things in place, but they aren't changing their underlying thoughts. As such, people whom are open to change will never get the stimulus to change because the whole thing is a lose/tie for them. They can only lose and will never benefit from the discussion.
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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#22 » by dougthonus » Sun Jan 28, 2024 4:53 pm

DuckIII wrote:Everyone else seems to embrace a connection to the organization like you would expect except for perhaps Rodman who, well, so what?


I don't know if you were to name the 8 most important Bulls in the 6 titles how many are connected to the team?
1: Jordan - no
2: Pippen - no
3: Horace - no
4: Rodman - no
5: Kukoc - Not antagonistic but not connected either
6-10: BJ, Cartwright, Harper, Kerr? Maybe you've got Harper out of that group? Kerr seems like he would be, but has now formed a greater legacy elsewhere.

It's really pretty unprecedented how poor our connection to that legacy is.
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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#23 » by DuckIII » Sun Jan 28, 2024 5:20 pm

dougthonus wrote:
DuckIII wrote:Everyone else seems to embrace a connection to the organization like you would expect except for perhaps Rodman who, well, so what?


I don't know if you were to name the 8 most important Bulls in the 6 titles how many are connected to the team?
1: Jordan - no
2: Pippen - no
3: Horace - no
4: Rodman - no
5: Kukoc - Not antagonistic but not connected either
6-10: BJ, Cartwright, Harper, Kerr? Maybe you've got Harper out of that group? Kerr seems like he would be, but has now formed a greater legacy elsewhere.

It's really pretty unprecedented how poor our connection to that legacy is.


Those guys all come back for PR stuff except MJ. Plus lots of other guys from the dynasty. I don’t see other organizations doing a whole lot either, it’s just same basic stuff of guys showing up at games being welcomed by fans, coming by practices occasionally.

The only reason this has ever been a story is because of the toxic relationship between ownership, MJ and Phil. Everyone else has a very normal post-play relationship with the team.

I mean, Horace and Pippen have both been literally employed by the team in retirement.
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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#24 » by dougthonus » Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:05 pm

DuckIII wrote:Those guys all come back for PR stuff except MJ. Plus lots of other guys from the dynasty. I don’t see other organizations doing a whole lot either, it’s just same basic stuff of guys showing up at games being welcomed by fans, coming by practices occasionally.

The only reason this has ever been a story is because of the toxic relationship between ownership, MJ and Phil. Everyone else has a very normal post-play relationship with the team.

I mean, Horace and Pippen have both been literally employed by the team in retirement.


Yeah, Pippen was deeply connected for awhile, but he's aloof again now and bitter and angry again. You're right that they brought back Horace into the fold more recently, my old man brain was just caught up in the past.

You're right about people coming back here or there but it just feels different, maybe the bigger problem is that there's so much weird animosity between the players and MJ and Krause and the dynasty and so much weird stuff from that era that even when guys do come back it never feels joyful or like a celebration, it's still always negativity that ends up being talked about.
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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#25 » by League Circles » Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:13 pm

DuckIII wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
WookieOnRitalin wrote:
Sports should not be political especially favorably political to one particular point of view. People want to watch the game. If a player wants to be political on his or her own time, that is her or her prerogative. They have social media. They use their money for speech.

Nothing wrong with what Phil said.
Human rights aren't political.


I will never cease to be frustrated with people being upset by equality messaging. Equality messaging is only “political messaging” because resistance to it is a political path to success. The fact that it is referred to as politics at all confirms the necessity of it.

I could understand if the leagues absolutely beat us over the head with it constantly during broadcasts if for no other reason than the desire to preserve escapism into a hobby or personal interest. At some point all messaging can be overdone and out of place. I get that.

But other than a brief window during the social justice wave, the messaging is extremely tame. An occasional uplifting message on a baseline paint job. Football helmets saying “be love” etc.

And really, if you get upset by words standing for equality and support for other human beings then you might want to talk to someone.

I agree that referring to it as "politics" isn't really appropriate, but I'd just say that many people don't want to be reminded of anything sad or serious in the middle of their often very limited entertainment time. Same reason Bill Burr did his bit about cancer survivors or amputated soldiers or whatever it was being spotlighted during games.
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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#26 » by fleet » Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:20 pm

DuckIII wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
WookieOnRitalin wrote:
Sports should not be political especially favorably political to one particular point of view. People want to watch the game. If a player wants to be political on his or her own time, that is her or her prerogative. They have social media. They use their money for speech.

Nothing wrong with what Phil said.
Human rights aren't political.


I will never cease to be frustrated with people being upset by equality messaging. Equality messaging is only “political messaging” because resistance to it is a political path to success. The fact that it is referred to as politics at all confirms the necessity of it.

I could understand if the leagues absolutely beat us over the head with it constantly during broadcasts if for no other reason than the desire to preserve escapism into a hobby or personal interest. At some point all messaging can be overdone and out of place. I get that.

But other than a brief window during the social justice wave, the messaging is extremely tame. An occasional uplifting message on a baseline paint job. Football helmets saying “be love” etc.

And really, if you get upset by words standing for equality and support for other human beings then you might want to talk to someone.

Now we’re talking about the way things ought to be, rather than how they really are. The NBA putting itself into the position of decision-making based on dealing with people as they are, or how they should be. It’s fine if the NBA wants to take that on. Yet some folks don’t want to think about it. Either the customer is always right, or not. As I have also said though, I may be out of touch with the audience as it is today, and the NBA is making business decisions properly even with the presence compartmentalization oriented people such as myself. There are a lot of us dinosaurs too. If we matter or not anymore is a question that is being answered here I guess.
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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#27 » by MrSparkle » Sun Jan 28, 2024 6:30 pm

End of the day, while Reinsdorf picked Krause over Phil, MJ and Pippen … there might be some salty feelings … but professionally, there just wasn’t much reason for Phil and Mike to do anything in Chicago.

The Bulls did everything possible imo to salvage the Pippen relationship, short of giving him an undeserved shot at GMing or coaching. Whatever bad blood there is, seems entirely in Scottie’s (declining) head. They gave him the token 2-year MLE/retirement contract when he could barely walk, retired him as a Bull, gave him a job in the FO, and he just seems to have a lot of toxic issues.

MJ wanted ownership. Phil wanted to coach. Short of Jerry selling the team to MJ and hiring Phil in a GM or coaching position, there wasn’t a path for them to be involved here once they left.

All this said, could you imagine the Bulls owned by MJ and GM’d by Phil? :lol: Almost feel like we dodged that bullet, as nice as it would’ve been to keep them.

Kerr’s the one that got away. And firing Ron Adams- there was no reason for that.
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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#28 » by DuckIII » Sun Jan 28, 2024 8:16 pm

MrSparkle wrote:All this said, could you imagine the Bulls owned by MJ and GM’d by Phil? :lol: Almost feel like we dodged that bullet, as nice as it would’ve been to keep them.


:lol: Good point.
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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#29 » by SalmonsSuperfan » Mon Jan 29, 2024 12:31 am

DuckIII wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
WookieOnRitalin wrote:
Sports should not be political especially favorably political to one particular point of view. People want to watch the game. If a player wants to be political on his or her own time, that is her or her prerogative. They have social media. They use their money for speech.

Nothing wrong with what Phil said.
Human rights aren't political.


I will never cease to be frustrated with people being upset by equality messaging. Equality messaging is only “political messaging” because resistance to it is a political path to success. The fact that it is referred to as politics at all confirms the necessity of it.

I could understand if the leagues absolutely beat us over the head with it constantly during broadcasts if for no other reason than the desire to preserve escapism into a hobby or personal interest. At some point all messaging can be overdone and out of place. I get that.

But other than a brief window during the social justice wave, the messaging is extremely tame. An occasional uplifting message on a baseline paint job. Football helmets saying “be love” etc.

And really, if you get upset by words standing for equality and support for other human beings then you might want to talk to someone.

I think that sport is inherently political and a reflection of society, Jackie Robinson wasn't consciously making a political statement when he integrated the MLB, he just wanted to play pro ball at the highest level. but of course, it was a very political act regardless. What Kaepernick did, clearly not on the same level of Jackie's contributions, was initially a very brave act; until Kaepernick sold out to child-employing company Nike because he wanted to make a couple of bucks. There's some irony in Asian sweatshop employees stitching "black lives matter" on a $100 nike sweatshirt.

what the the nba is doing is not brave or helpful to society. the nba is virtue signaling. as an entity, it doesn't actually have any values besides producing maximum profit because its audience is predominantly liberal and it tries to market to them. the players themselves obviously have a large impact on this too, but I'll always be of the opinion that paternalistic millionaires and billionaires, regardless of their skin color, moralizing the public is doing the exact opposite of what it intends to do. now you have an entire generation of "left wing" young people who think in race science and have an apartheid mindset. the flipside is all the god and patriotism talk in the NFL.
there's something amusing about how "anti-racism" has become an entire industry where its proponents actually have no desire to see racism or bigotry beaten back because then they'd be out of a job. they couldn't get paid to lecture minimum wage Starbucks employees or sell $100 stained glass "BLM" signs to whites in Vermont.
the state of the culture is such that you'd think we're worse off in these arenas than we were in the 1950s. you'd think women are more oppressed and at a much greater risk of sexual assault and that they're little damsels that society needs to protect rather than treat them as equal beings. furthermore, I find it amusing how this word "equity" has replaced "equality" in social justice discourse. if you've spent time on a college campus lately, you'll spend 99% of your time learning about how you say things and the words you use is the most important thing in your work (I'm a graduate student and recently my class spent an hour discussing why black business owners on the South Side are racists for putting up "no loitering signs"...pick a different word, they say, but couldn't come to a reasonable conclusion. the Arab professor was baffled but realized he couldn't actually get the class back on track because somebody would report him to the administration.), yet nobody seems to care that the language of capitalism now permeates this discourse.

corporate-mandated "social justice" has the complete opposite effect of what its proponents claim it will do. it's making people more racist. many many young whites think it's cool and rebellious to be racist because "the man" says its wrong. these kids probably don't actually have any strong opinions on bigotry, but it's pretty much the only form of contrarianism left in this society. nothing is taboo anymore except for that.

I echo what fleet said, the individual actions of the players shouldn't be regulated, they should have the freedom to express their social views, and it appears to be a better environment for that (unless you're a conservative and share the values of half the country). but let's not pretend like these billionaire owners give a **** about anything except the bottom line.
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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#30 » by jnrjr79 » Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:08 pm

DuckIII wrote:P.S. Phil Jackson is every bit as responsible for the organization’s disconnect with the Dynasty. And really, the disconnect is only with Phil and MJ. Not a huge surprise since feeding dysfunction between the players and FO was Phil’s strategy and MJ is a massive ass hole.

Not saying Phil is solely responsible because he is not, but he embraced and exploited the feud and it’s not even like it’s a secret.

Everyone else seems to embrace a connection to the organization like you would expect except for perhaps Rodman who, well, so what?


Rodman is perfectly cozy with the team. He's been back for events and tried to make it to the ROH, but couldn't catch a flight due to the weather.

It's really just MJ and Pippen. MJ doesn't seem to have huge animosity - he just went on to be an exec & owner of another team and naturally drifted away. He's just sort of too large a figure to come back and ride the nostalgia train.

Pippen is a lunatic, so I don't really know what to think there. He seems to want to beef with the whole world.
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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#31 » by 1985Bear » Mon Jan 29, 2024 3:43 pm

The guys we love the most, Jordan, Pop, Coach Phil, are also the people we feel are most spurned. They are all hanging in the rafters today and 2 of them have statues.

Guys like Randy Brown, Pete MEYERS, Paxon, Wennington, Cartwright have all been given jobs after their careers ended.

My buddy was in line on south side and Ron Kittle was there too so they got to talking. Kittle (old Sox player from 80s) said the Jerry Reinsdorf is the most loyal person he has ever met and that he call him anytime for anything and Jerry would be there for him.

That loyalty, may not seem like it applies to the stars of the dynasty, but a lot of people who worked for Bulls would disagree with most in this thread that the Bulls don’t look out for past players.


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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#32 » by kyrv » Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:01 am

fleet wrote:
madvillian wrote:Phil is dead to me after his stupid comments about the NBA's social justice initiatives.

I hope Phil is not opposed to a positive outcome on social justice oriented issues. Phil might be as I am. Which is to be interested and supportive in many social reform issues, and supports freedom of expression, but not a fan of the league getting directly involved in promoting a politically oriented POV. Like, I don’t have any problem with kneeling during the anthem or anything like that. Before the game. But I also understand why the NFL wouldn’t want to be identified as an entity directly involved in promoting that stuff. I don’t desire to see political messaging while I am watching professional sports. In fact, I oppose seeing that while allowing for it to happen if I must. I watch sports specifically not to be thinking at all. Entertaining fans strictly with the game alone is probably the best bet for the NBA. Unless the audience is especially oriented towards a different outlook than what mine us. Maybe it is, IDK.

This seems reasonable

“People want to see sports as nonpolitical,” he said. “We’ve had a lot of different type of players that have gone on to be … like (former New York Knicks forward) Bill Bradley was a senator. A number of baseball players have been representatives and senators and political, but their politics stay out of the game; it doesn’t need to be there.”


That's kind of where I'm at, don't need to be lectured during events/movies/shows (even when I agree with the initiative). On their own time, actors athletes celebrities, have at it.
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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#33 » by kyrv » Tue Jan 30, 2024 4:07 am

1985Bear wrote:The guys we love the most, Jordan, Pop, Coach Phil, are also the people we feel are most spurned. They are all hanging in the rafters today and 2 of them have statues.

Guys like Randy Brown, Pete MEYERS, Paxon, Wennington, Cartwright have all been given jobs after their careers ended.

My buddy was in line on south side and Ron Kittle was there too so they got to talking. Kittle (old Sox player from 80s) said the Jerry Reinsdorf is the most loyal person he has ever met and that he call him anytime for anything and Jerry would be there for him.

That loyalty, may not seem like it applies to the stars of the dynasty, but a lot of people who worked for Bulls would disagree with most in this thread that the Bulls don’t look out for past players.


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Scottie was brought back. Today...well sadly Scottie has issues. Jordan owned another team. Phil, he didn't want to coach a non-stacked team, and obviously one wouldn't want him anywhere near decision making, so no jobs were realistic.

Vast majority of dynasty players speak very well of JR abd Krause. Post dynasty, the main vitriol of the big 3 was with Krause, not JR.
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Re: Phil Jackson Meets the Bulls 

Post#34 » by NZB2323 » Sat Feb 3, 2024 3:49 am

1985Bear wrote:The guys we love the most, Jordan, Pop, Coach Phil, are also the people we feel are most spurned. They are all hanging in the rafters today and 2 of them have statues.

Guys like Randy Brown, Pete MEYERS, Paxon, Wennington, Cartwright have all been given jobs after their careers ended.

My buddy was in line on south side and Ron Kittle was there too so they got to talking. Kittle (old Sox player from 80s) said the Jerry Reinsdorf is the most loyal person he has ever met and that he call him anytime for anything and Jerry would be there for him.

That loyalty, may not seem like it applies to the stars of the dynasty, but a lot of people who worked for Bulls would disagree with most in this thread that the Bulls don’t look out for past players.


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The issue is Reinsdorf felt the most loyalty towards Krause.

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