Bulls Ring of Honor 1/12/2024

[kyrv]

Question. Are GMs usually included in these ring of honor things? If not, this was clearly not well conceived as a Jerry Reinsdorf production. Michael Reinsdorf nonetheless. It just dawned on me. Did MJ know about the Krause part, and that was the reason for the video level participation? At some point as a franchise, if you want the thing to come off properly, you need to make do with the people involved, and act accordingly.

The Bulls may have mistakenly thought that this being a celebration and a lot of time having past, that adults could act like adults for an hour.

They were mistaken obviously.

-------

The list of bad sports breakups and just people not getting along numbers in the thousands. Still tough to see of course as a fan.

I think it's more likely he didn't want to deal with Pippen potentially being there.

Pippen didn't want to deal with MJ.

So their inability to remedy the tension like adults resulted in the fans losing. Which is pretty sad.

maybe a perfect storm. You would THINK, that the Bulls would make sure to gather intel, and get everything sorted out instead of ramming it through with fingers crossed

[Bulls_MIT]

I probably wouldn't boo a dead man in general (always the Hitler exception where someone is just bad enough it doesn't matter).

However, I put most of the blame for this on the Bulls. While individual fans were shameful. The Bulls:
1: Had Jerry Reinsdorf saying asinine things to alienate Jordan before hand ("I have no idea how hard we tried to get Michael and Scottie, my only regret is Jerry's not here!"). Can't imagine that would cause people to feel a certain way at all.

2: They should have made it really clear well in advance (like a program before the event handed out at the door) that his wife was going to be accepting the award, almost certainly this cuts out the momentum of any booing if people know in advance this is what is happening, and the cheers would then outweigh them. If you aren't sure how crowds work, a lot of people are probably thinking "maybe I'll boo" but they don't feel strong enough to do it until a lot of people are doing it, then they vent it out. Putting something out in advance like "hey his widow is here, don't be a jerk" almost certainly stops that momentum from ever building.

3: If they did some research and found my idea from #2 isn't likely to work, they could have simply decided this risk is too big, let's honor Jerry and Thelma privately instead. It's not like this was some unknown possibility that no one could see coming, and not putting him on the screen and having his wife booed by a stadium and having a separate private ceremony would have been a way better result for everyone even if some questions were asked afterwards.

No one showed up to Thelma's house to boo her husband, this happened only because the Bulls wanted to create a marketing ploy to milk the dynasty one last time and did so with an incredible lack of planning and care.

I agree with #3. The risk was way too big. How could you NOT know that way too many idiotic robots exist today who react without a thought? This stupid mistake by the Bulls is haunting them and will stain this franchise forever. This would happen in any city in America. If David Stern passed away, people would boo his widow the same way in every NBA arena. You have to understand American society. There has always been a huge portion of Americans who feel a sense of entitlement, greed, ungratefulness, superiority, disregard, and uncaring. For those people, it's all about how fast they can prove they know enough and are cruel enough to put themselves first. They see a picture of Krause, and immediately they have to prove to the people around them that they know the picture. So they copy the response they've seen and heard in the past, without a thought in their brains. It's the same way people always boo NBA commissioners, it's the same way people chant FJB. I'm surprised nobody in the entire Bulls organization understood the inevitable and understood the backlash that would surround their decision. I'm upset at the Bulls organization and I'm upset American society has never taken a step forward in civility and advancement in thought processing.

[kyrv]

Bulls_MIT, l appreciate your post. Just two quick comments on the American society angle.

1) Not sure how many if any people in many South or West Coast cities would boo a widow.

2) As far as overly emotional or classless fans, or just poorly behaving fans in general, American sports fans don't hold a candle to many many soccer fans worldwide. Take our rudeness, add some, then add a generous helping of aggressiveness.

[nekorajo]

Bulls_MIT, l appreciate your post. Just two quick comments on the American society angle.

1) Not sure how many if any people in many South or West Coast cities would boo a widow.

2) As far as overly emotional or classless fans, or just poorly behaving fans in general, American sports fans don't hold a candle to many many soccer fans worldwide. Take our rudeness, add some, then add a generous helping of aggressiveness.

Nobody booed his widow. We had no idea she was there until they showed her crying on the jumbotron. I'm sure someone else who was at the game can cosign this.

[Stratmaster]

I probably wouldn't boo a dead man in general (always the Hitler exception where someone is just bad enough it doesn't matter).

However, I put most of the blame for this on the Bulls. While individual fans were shameful. The Bulls:
1: Had Jerry Reinsdorf saying asinine things to alienate Jordan before hand ("I have no idea how hard we tried to get Michael and Scottie, my only regret is Jerry's not here!"). Can't imagine that would cause people to feel a certain way at all.

2: They should have made it really clear well in advance (like a program before the event handed out at the door) that his wife was going to be accepting the award, almost certainly this cuts out the momentum of any booing if people know in advance this is what is happening, and the cheers would then outweigh them. If you aren't sure how crowds work, a lot of people are probably thinking "maybe I'll boo" but they don't feel strong enough to do it until a lot of people are doing it, then they vent it out. Putting something out in advance like "hey his widow is here, don't be a jerk" almost certainly stops that momentum from ever building.

3: If they did some research and found my idea from #2 isn't likely to work, they could have simply decided this risk is too big, let's honor Jerry and Thelma privately instead. It's not like this was some unknown possibility that no one could see coming, and not putting him on the screen and having his wife booed by a stadium and having a separate private ceremony would have been a way better result for everyone even if some questions were asked afterwards.

No one showed up to Thelma's house to boo her husband, this happened only because the Bulls wanted to create a marketing ploy to milk the dynasty one last time and did so with an incredible lack of planning and care.

So, individual bad behavior is blamed on some other entity.

It's not the guy who robbed your car's fault. You are the one who left your tools in plain sight.

I could give 100 more examples like that.

The fact is that booing anyone, for anything, is classless behavior generally conducted by entitled and ignorant meat heads. Or drunks. Or all of the above.

Booing a dead man takes it to another level.

And whether or not they understood his wife was there, they know they are on television and his family is watching from somewhere.

IDK when our society got to the point that individuals think their opinions and desires are the only important thing regardless of how they affect others. But here we are.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

You're trying to make a character judgment on what people *should* be doing, rather than look at the chess pieces and asses them for what they are capable of doing on the board. The Bulls wanted more from people than they were capable, and decided to do what they wanted to do anyway. The Bulls failed the fans/participants, Not the other way around. Or alternately, instead of willfull callousness and arrogance, the Bulls just half-assed their time effort devoted, and didn’t direct enough thought energy at it in order to create a competent plan for the event.

OK. I think that take is ludicrous. "Hey, the company honored a dead employee for their contributions and everyone booed them on TV. It's the companies fault".

But let's compromise. The Bulls failed the classless, ignorant, spoiled, entitled **** meat-heads who booed a dead man.

[Stratmaster]

So, individual bad behavior is blamed on some other entity.

No, individual bad behavior is blamed on the individual. Each individual who booed should feel ashamed of themselves. I have no sympathy for them and providing them no excuses. I also don't know their names and saying "fans" doesn't mean much, lots of fans also didn't boo and are abhorred. It's just meaningless.

This also wasn't an individual, it was a massive crowd. At an event, the event planner's have a responsibility towards the crowd as a whole. There were obvious steps they could have taken that would have mitigated this, they took none of them. 25 years of reaction to Krause also made it clear this was a risk they should have considered.

It's not the guy who robbed your car's fault. You are the one who left your tools in plain sight.

I could give 100 more examples like that.

If you left all your valuable belongings in your front yard permanently, the person who stole them is responsible for stealing them, but you won't get any sympathy for being a complete moron and not providing due care for your belongings.

The fact is that booing anyone, for anything, is classless behavior generally conducted by entitled and ignorant meat heads. Or drunks. Or all of the above.

Booing a dead man takes it to another level.

And whether or not they understood his wife was there, they know they are on television and his family is watching from somewhere.

IDK when our society got to the point that individuals think their opinions and desires are the only important thing regardless of how they affect others. But here we are.

Sure, here we are. The behavior was terrible.

The organization had a responsibility to set a better atmosphere to prevent this. They could have trivially done so and should have known they would have to.

Yes, the individuals should have done better and are absolutely to blame for their actions individually, but are also faceless, impossible to track down, and this is unactionable. The org also should have done better. When you put on an event, you are responsible for things like this.

OK, fair enough. Everybody was at fault.

You know better than I, but I am pretty sure that Owners and GM's don't spend time organizing this stuff. So I guess we can all be mad at everyone who works in Bulls marketing/PR (a couple of whom I have met and are wonderful people) because they are too decent of people to consider that others might be this shallow, callous and low-life.

[dougthonus]

OK, fair enough. Everybody was at fault.

You know better than I, but I am pretty sure that Owners and GM's don't spend time organizing this stuff. So I guess we can all be mad at everyone who works in Bulls marketing/PR (a couple of whom I have met and are wonderful people) because they are too decent of people to consider that others might be this shallow, callous and low-life.

I'm not an event planner by trade, but I plan events for my department, and I very much consider the mood and tenor of the staff relative to the event and current company performance, recent bonuses, raises, etc... Also heavily consider the day of the week, travel concerns for people flying in, the likelihood of good/bad weather, what venue will be appealing to a wide array of people, how easy is to get to, etc, etc...

Everyone I've met in Bulls marketing is great, I would imagine there was a large staff to create this event with many people involved, but it was still very poorly thought out and executed. Some basic things like just announcing Thelma first probably stops 95%+ of the booing. Being clear well in advance that Jordan/Pippen aren't coming and actually listing who is coming instead of trying to shroud it in secrecy, planning a major event in the 2nd week of Jan in Chicago where weather risk was obviously a massive problem, not putting it on a Saturday game where people would have more time to get there early and you could have done some pre-game stuff too.

Just felt like something that if you were really trying to make a big important event that you could have done much better at. Doesn't mean the people involved should all be sacked, but they sure as heck should do a retrospective and think about how to improve for next time.

[Stratmaster]

OK, fair enough. Everybody was at fault.

You know better than I, but I am pretty sure that Owners and GM's don't spend time organizing this stuff. So I guess we can all be mad at everyone who works in Bulls marketing/PR (a couple of whom I have met and are wonderful people) because they are too decent of people to consider that others might be this shallow, callous and low-life.

I'm not an event planner by trade, but I plan events for my department, and I very much consider the mood and tenor of the staff relative to the event and current company performance, recent bonuses, raises, etc... Also heavily consider the day of the week, travel concerns for people flying in, the likelihood of good/bad weather, what venue will be appealing to a wide array of people, how easy is to get to, etc, etc...

Everyone I've met in Bulls marketing is great, I would imagine there was a large staff to create this event with many people involved, but it was still very poorly thought out and executed. Some basic things like just announcing Thelma first probably stops 95%+ of the booing. Being clear well in advance that Jordan/Pippen aren't coming and actually listing who is coming instead of trying to shroud it in secrecy, planning a major event in the 2nd week of Jan in Chicago where weather risk was obviously a massive problem, not putting it on a Saturday game where people would have more time to get there early and you could have done some pre-game stuff too.

Just felt like something that if you were really trying to make a big important event that you could have done much better at. Doesn't mean the people involved should all be sacked, but they sure as heck should do a retrospective and think about how to improve for next time.

Well said

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

[jc23]

Glad Chuck made sure the BUlls FO and fans were not left off the hook because of NFL football coverage yesterday.

[MikeDC]

I'm upset American society has never taken a step forward in civility and advancement in thought processing.

See, I would offer that you are being a bigger part of the problem with "American society" than those fans were.

1. It's been established at this point that the fans who were booing Krause literally did not know that his widow was in attendance.

2. It's been established that the boos mostly almost immediately stopped when this became known.

So really, as far as it was possible, most people were actually civil and showed reasonable thought. The only alternative would be never booing at all, which would basically be taking away the public's ability to do anything.

In short, they didn't know, but as soon as they did, they acted appropriately.

You, on the other hand, actually know all of this. And yet, instead of acknowledging the facts, you are still scolding "American society" for a transgression that they stopped as soon as they were aware of. Which is all one can reasonably expect.

I think "American society" would be better with without the inapplicable blanket criticism. Stop being so self-righteous, and acknowledge that most people are pretty decent.

[Stratmaster]

I'm upset American society has never taken a step forward in civility and advancement in thought processing.

See, I would offer that you are being a bigger part of the problem with "American society" than those fans were.

1. It's been established at this point that the fans who were booing Krause literally did not know that his widow was in attendance.

2. It's been established that the boos mostly almost immediately stopped when this became known.

So really, as far as it was possible, most people were actually civil and showed reasonable thought. The only alternative would be never booing at all, which would basically be taking away the public's ability to do anything.

In short, they didn't know, but as soon as they did, they acted appropriately.

You, on the other hand, actually know all of this. And yet, instead of acknowledging the facts, you are still scolding "American society" for a transgression that they stopped as soon as they were aware of. Which is all one can reasonably expect.

I think "American society" would be better with without the inapplicable blanket criticism. Stop being so self-righteous, and acknowledge that most people are pretty decent.

Wow. Ok.

"The only alternative would be never booing at all, which would basically be taking away the public's ability to do anything."

Ok. Sure.

Booing is rude and crude regardless of the reason. It's for people who don't care about anyone but themselves, and think only their feelings and ability to express those feelings however they want are important.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

[dougthonus]

Booing is rude and crude regardless of the reason. It's for people who don't care about anyone but themselves, and think only their feelings and ability to express those feelings however they want are important.

Opinions vary on booing generally speaking, but I see it as paying customers expressing dissatisfaction with the product. Something which is totally reasonable for paying customers to do, and there aren't many ways a customer in this area can express dissatisfaction to affect change, but the two most effective are probably:

1: Booing regularly (and causing repeated embarrassment)
2: Not paying (causing financial losses)

For a fan that has season tickets and doesn't want to permanently give up on the team because they will never get the seats back if they give them up, booing is probably the only reasonable option to attempt to affect change.

As such, in general, I'd say booing at a sporting event is a reasonable response.

Booing a dead man would cross my boundaries, but if we were at a bar, and and it was on TV, and there was no personal connection of Jerry's there, then I still wouldn't boo him but I wouldn't think twice about someone else doing it either. The only thing that made this really unacceptable, IMO anyway, was the presence of his loved ones, which the Bulls failed to make clear in advance.

But again, people may have different tolerances there than me.

[jnrjr79]

Booing is rude and crude regardless of the reason. It's for people who don't care about anyone but themselves, and think only their feelings and ability to express those feelings however they want are important.

Opinions vary on booing generally speaking, but I see it as paying customers expressing dissatisfaction with the product. Something which is totally reasonable for paying customers to do, and there aren't many ways a customer in this area can express dissatisfaction to affect change, but the two most effective are probably:

1: Booing regularly (and causing repeated embarrassment)
2: Not paying (causing financial losses)

For a fan that has season tickets and doesn't want to permanently give up on the team because they will never get the seats back if they give them up, booing is probably the only reasonable option to attempt to affect change.

As such, in general, I'd say booing at a sporting event is a reasonable response.

Booing a dead man would cross my boundaries, but if we were at a bar, and and it was on TV, and there was no personal connection of Jerry's there, then I still wouldn't boo him but I wouldn't think twice about someone else doing it either. The only thing that made this really unacceptable, IMO anyway, was the presence of his loved ones, which the Bulls failed to make clear in advance.

But again, people may have different tolerances there than me.

What I find so odd about the booing is its utter pointlessness. Who is the audience for this? Jerry Krause is dead and hadn't worked for the Bulls in decades. It's one thing to boo a poor performance on the court that's actually happening in front of you. It just strikes me as weird to think "oh yeah, I was so mad at that guy 26 years ago for breaking up the team. Let's boo!"

[fleet]

So, individual bad behavior is blamed on some other entity.

It's not the guy who robbed your car's fault. You are the one who left your tools in plain sight.

I could give 100 more examples like that.

The fact is that booing anyone, for anything, is classless behavior generally conducted by entitled and ignorant meat heads. Or drunks. Or all of the above.

Booing a dead man takes it to another level.

And whether or not they understood his wife was there, they know they are on television and his family is watching from somewhere.

IDK when our society got to the point that individuals think their opinions and desires are the only important thing regardless of how they affect others. But here we are.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

You're trying to make a character judgment on what people *should* be doing, rather than look at the chess pieces and asses them for what they are capable of doing on the board. The Bulls wanted more from people than they were capable, and decided to do what they wanted to do anyway. The Bulls failed the fans/participants, Not the other way around. Or alternately, instead of willfull callousness and arrogance, the Bulls just half-assed their time effort devoted, and didn’t direct enough thought energy at it in order to create a competent plan for the event.

OK. I think that take is ludicrous. "Hey, the company honored a dead employee for their contributions and everyone booed them on TV. It's the companies fault".

But let's compromise. The Bulls failed the classless, ignorant, spoiled, entitled **** meat-heads who booed a dead man.

The booing may be over the top. The boo police though, eh.

If you're getting booed, dead or alive maybe something you did brought it on yourself. If Krause's widow wasn't there, It's all good in a sports crowd. Jerry is losing his touch with reality, or his tone is as deaf as ever. Those people wanted to see Mike, Scottie, and Dennis. Jerry wanted to give them the cherry on top, because he always has wanted it his way for the Bulls. He stupidly put Thelma in harms way. And some day we may learn that MJ found out it was a half assed arrogant **** show they didn't consult with him on.

[dougthonus]

What I find so odd about the booing is its utter pointlessness.

What is the point of cheering? One is to express your support and excitement, one is to express your disappointment/displeasure.

Who is the audience for this? Jerry Krause is dead and hadn't worked for the Bulls in decades. It's one thing to boo a poor performance on the court that's actually happening in front of you. It just strikes me as weird to think "oh yeah, I was so mad at that guy 26 years ago for breaking up the team. Let's boo!"

I'd say the audience is Bulls management/ownership for continuing to give a guy flowers that many fans feel did something completely unforgiveable which was to run the greatest player in history out of town, a guy on the short list for greatest coach in history out of town, and another first ballot HOF player out of town, and potentially cost the Bulls a title in the following season in order to try to rebuild, then lead the team to one of the worst 5 year stretches of basketball by any organization ever.

Personally, I think if Krause had managed to be modestly successful (say a couple 2nd round playoff appearances) with a new core a couple years after breaking up the dynasty then I don't think people would have cared so much (we know deep down that team was highly unlikely to win), like if he had built an equivalent team to the 2004-2007 Bulls starting in 2001, then I think his legacy with fans would have been far different, but it was just the juxtaposition that we gave up even a small chance for _this_?

[jnrjr79]

What I find so odd about the booing is its utter pointlessness.

What is the point of cheering? One is to express your support and excitement, one is to express your disappointment/displeasure.

I mean, sure, but one of those things is pretty obviously crappy to do in this context and the other isn't, so the sort of "both of these things are the same" argument feels a little thin to me.

Who is the audience for this? Jerry Krause is dead and hadn't worked for the Bulls in decades. It's one thing to boo a poor performance on the court that's actually happening in front of you. It just strikes me as weird to think "oh yeah, I was so mad at that guy 26 years ago for breaking up the team. Let's boo!"

I'd say the audience is Bulls management/ownership for continuing to give a guy flowers that many fans did something completely unforgiveable which was to run the greatest player in history out of town, a guy on the short list for greatest coach in history out of town, and another first ballot HOF player out of town, and potentially cost the Bulls a title in the following season in order to try to rebuild, then lead the team to one of the worst 5 year stretches of basketball by any organization ever.

Personally, I think if Krause had managed to be modestly successful (say a couple 2nd round playoff appearances) with a new core a couple years after breaking up the dynasty then I don't think people would have cared so much, like if he had built an equivalent team to the 2004-2007 Bulls starting in 2001, then I think his legacy with fans would have been far different.

I agree that there is a whole litany of reasons to think Krause was a bad GM, particularly toward the end of the dynasty, so I'm not disputing that. I just don't think booing his surviving family is a particularly productive way to express those feelings. What are the Bulls going to do? Decide "you know what, due to this feedback, we're no longer inducting Krause?" It's just sort of feckless.

[League Circles]

Booing is rude and crude regardless of the reason. It's for people who don't care about anyone but themselves, and think only their feelings and ability to express those feelings however they want are important.

Opinions vary on booing generally speaking, but I see it as paying customers expressing dissatisfaction with the product. Something which is totally reasonable for paying customers to do, and there aren't many ways a customer in this area can express dissatisfaction to affect change, but the two most effective are probably:

1: Booing regularly (and causing repeated embarrassment)
2: Not paying (causing financial losses)

For a fan that has season tickets and doesn't want to permanently give up on the team because they will never get the seats back if they give them up, booing is probably the only reasonable option to attempt to affect change.

As such, in general, I'd say booing at a sporting event is a reasonable response.

Booing a dead man would cross my boundaries, but if we were at a bar, and and it was on TV, and there was no personal connection of Jerry's there, then I still wouldn't boo him but I wouldn't think twice about someone else doing it either. The only thing that made this really unacceptable, IMO anyway, was the presence of his loved ones, which the Bulls failed to make clear in advance.

But again, people may have different tolerances there than me.

IMO it really doesn't matter that his wife was there. It's simply cruel to boo a dead man in this context, ESPECIALLY one that was so unanimously disliked in his public life. It's trashy as hell to boo in that context. Totally different to boo individuals short term while they're alive. That can still be trashy, but isn't usually cruel like this. OBVIOUSLY people who loved Krause were going to see the boing or learn of it and be senselessly hurt by it.

[MikeDC]

Who is the audience for this?
…. It's one thing to boo a poor performance on the court that's actually happening in front of you.

Jerry Reinsdorf.

This was literally a poor performance that was happening on the court right in front of them.

[fleet]

Booing is rude and crude regardless of the reason. It's for people who don't care about anyone but themselves, and think only their feelings and ability to express those feelings however they want are important.

Opinions vary on booing generally speaking, but I see it as paying customers expressing dissatisfaction with the product. Something which is totally reasonable for paying customers to do, and there aren't many ways a customer in this area can express dissatisfaction to affect change, but the two most effective are probably:

1: Booing regularly (and causing repeated embarrassment)
2: Not paying (causing financial losses)

For a fan that has season tickets and doesn't want to permanently give up on the team because they will never get the seats back if they give them up, booing is probably the only reasonable option to attempt to affect change.

As such, in general, I'd say booing at a sporting event is a reasonable response.

Booing a dead man would cross my boundaries, but if we were at a bar, and and it was on TV, and there was no personal connection of Jerry's there, then I still wouldn't boo him but I wouldn't think twice about someone else doing it either. The only thing that made this really unacceptable, IMO anyway, was the presence of his loved ones, which the Bulls failed to make clear in advance.

But again, people may have different tolerances there than me.

IMO it really doesn't matter that his wife was there. It's simply cruel to boo a dead man in this context, ESPECIALLY one that was so unanimously disliked in his public life. It's trashy as hell to boo in that context. Totally different to boo individuals short term while they're alive. That can still be trashy, but isn't usually cruel like this. OBVIOUSLY people who loved Krause were going to see the boing or learn of it and be senselessly hurt by it.

^^^ The part you’re missing there, is that Krause is booed because he always sought some of the love and exposure with the players. And during that exposure, and choices made, by himself and ownership, fans took a disliking, and expressed it as they reserve the right to any public figure. It is what it is. Fans don’t think about family of the public figures in sports when the express approval or displeasure. This comes with the deal. Jerry Krause wanted in on the adulation. So, now dead or alive he has fans’ attention, and is not blameless if his family is caught in the public arena as a result. This was entirely foreseeable. JR’s blindspot on the Krause subject is what has hurt the family if they are. Fans aren’t camping out in front of the family home to boo. His likeness was paraded in front of Bulls fans at a game they paid for to watch the team they love. Are they supposed to pretend they appreciated the unwelcome gesture by ownership?

[MikeDC]

IMO it really doesn't matter that his wife was there. It's simply cruel to boo a dead man in this context, ESPECIALLY one that was so unanimously disliked in his public life. It's trashy as hell to boo in that context. Totally different to boo individuals short term while they're alive. That can still be trashy, but isn't usually cruel like this. OBVIOUSLY people who loved Krause were going to see the boing or learn of it and be senselessly hurt by it.

Also kind of trashy to keep asking for the public to throw cheers and accolades on a guy you know they hate. If youve tried to publicly honor a guy 9 times, and every time hes booed mercilessly, maybe try number 10 is actually more about you than it is about him.

To spell it out, this was Reinsdorf forthrightly giving the general public’s view of the dynasty the finger. He shouldnt be surprised when he gets it right back.