Your offseason plans for the Bulls

[moorhosj]

Trading a role player for a star. Now wouldn't that be grand.

There numbers last year were pretty similar. Reaves played in all 82 games and has had a better 3pt% and True Shooting% the past two seasons. Unless you are confident we are getting 2020-21 Zach Lavine, they aren't that far off.

One guy has improved each of the past 2 seasons, the other has declined for 3 years and is injury-prone. This is probably the best chance to get off his contract, we should jump on it.

[TheJordanRule]

Trading a role player for a star. Now wouldn't that be grand.

There numbers last year were pretty similar. Reaves played in all 82 games and has had a better 3pt% and True Shooting% the past two seasons. Unless you are confident we are getting 2020-21 Zach Lavine, they aren't that far off.

One guy has improved each of the past 2 seasons, the other has declined for 3 years and is injury-prone. This is probably the best chance to get off his contract, we should jump on it.

There are reasons to be wary of Reaves' stats. He plays within the gravity of two superstars (Lebron James and AD). Sometimes, that hides the level of your talent (ala Jalen Brunson when he was playing with Luka), but usually guys reveal themselves to be much worse than what their initial impression was when they were playing alongside superstars.

[jnrjr79]

Lakers can include DeAngelo and Rui. We could even include Carter and the deal still works. I know DeAngelo isn't loved here, but he did shoot 41.5% on threes at 7 attempts per game.

DeAngelo would have to opt in in this scenario. I assume the conventional wisdom is he will?

Reports have said that he plans to opt out, actually.

In that case, I'd be a little shocked if the Bulls wanted to make a long-term commitment to him as part of a sign-and-trade.

[dougthonus]

I'm okay with Zach going to the Lakers, mainly because I think it could really happen. Prefer the Golden State ideas, of course. But I seriously doubt the Warriors are willing to part with Kuminga.

If they do this, don't they essentially have to let DeMar walk? If they're not trading Zach into someone's cap space, and therefore have to take matching-ish salary back in return, how do you do this without going into the tax (which they obviously aren't going to do)? There would also be some interesting roster spot issues because the Lakers would have to throw in a lot of bodies with Reeves to match salaries.

I think you could play hardball with Pat and DeMar and keep both and stay under the tax, but definitely depends where their contracts land.

Where is DeMar going besides here that will pay him even 25M per year?

That said, if you have to let DeMar walk, who cares? Where is this team going with DeMar leading it? You need to get long term assets, if you could somehow flip Zach into Reaves + Rui, you would be nuts not to.

[moorhosj]

There are reasons to be wary of Reaves' stats. He plays within the gravity of two superstars (Lebron James and AD). Sometimes, that hides the level of your talent (ala Jalen Brunson when he was playing with Luka), but usually guys reveal themselves to be much worse than what their initial impression was when they were playing alongside superstars.

Really good point. I think I'm just that ready to get out from Zach's contract and don't really see us getting much more in a trade.

[jnrjr79]

I'm okay with Zach going to the Lakers, mainly because I think it could really happen. Prefer the Golden State ideas, of course. But I seriously doubt the Warriors are willing to part with Kuminga.

If they do this, don't they essentially have to let DeMar walk? If they're not trading Zach into someone's cap space, and therefore have to take matching-ish salary back in return, how do you do this without going into the tax (which they obviously aren't going to do)? There would also be some interesting roster spot issues because the Lakers would have to throw in a lot of bodies with Reeves to match salaries.

I think you could play hardball with Pat and DeMar and keep both and stay under the tax, but definitely depends where their contracts land.

Where is DeMar going besides here that will pay him even 25M per year?

That said, if you have to let DeMar walk, who cares? Where is this team going with DeMar leading it? You need to get long term assets, if you could somehow flip Zach into Reaves + Rui, you would be nuts not to.

Ha, well, I think the disconnect here is I'm talking about what the Bulls will do rather than what they should do.

I could see Philly taking a flyer on DeMar at a big number if they strike out on other targets, but I agree there aren't many other cap space teams that are likely to be involved. I could see some S&T teams willing to go there.

I agree the Bulls could (and should!) play hardball with DeMar, with the outcome being either getting him on an affordable deal or letting him walk. But I don't think they will, particularly given reports that they've offered upward of $40M/year on a two-year deal already, per KC.

I agree the Bulls should flip Zach into Reaves and Rui if they can. Maybe if they find out they can, they'll be willing to move on from DeMar. But it sure doesn't seem to be where things have been trending.

[dougthonus]

Ha, well, I think the disconnect here is I'm talking about what the Bulls will do rather than what they should do.

I think they will do that trade if its on the table too because I don't think they will find a Zach -> Cap space trade even if they look. Though that is obviously harder to say. I can't imagine the Lakers making this move, but if they would, I think we would.

I could see Philly taking a flyer on DeMar at a big number if they strike out on other targets, but I agree there aren't many other cap space teams that are likely to be involved. I could see some S&T teams willing to go there.

I can't imagine someone who is a worse fit than Philly for DeMar. Maybe they can use a secondary creator, but they need that guy to be able to defend and shoot and DeMar can do neither. If I were Philly, I'd much rather have Zach than DeMar.

I agree the Bulls could (and should!) play hardball with DeMar, with the outcome being either getting him on an affordable deal or letting him walk. But I don't think they will, particularly given reports that they've offered upward of $40M/year on a two-year deal already, per KC.

I think if they end up with certainty after a Zach trade on the other pieces of the team that they may play hardball to avoid the tax, like if it's we signed Pat for 20M and there's 30M under the tax left if we go all vet min guys, I could easily see us going take it or leave it. We'd probably then give in on years.

I agree the Bulls should flip Zach into Reaves and Rui if they can. Maybe if they find out they can, they'll be willing to move on from DeMar. But it sure doesn't seem to be where things have been trending.

Well, I don't think we're trending towards moving on from DeMar, but I don't think we're trending towards a point where the same tax question doesn't exist regardless of whether we make this trade. It could be their ultimate tax solution is just waive and stretch Lonzo.

[jnrjr79]

Ha, well, I think the disconnect here is I'm talking about what the Bulls will do rather than what they should do.

I think they will do that trade if its on the table too because I don't think they will find a Zach -> Cap space trade even if they look. Though that is obviously harder to say. I can't imagine the Lakers making this move, but if they would, I think we would.

I could see Philly taking a flyer on DeMar at a big number if they strike out on other targets, but I agree there aren't many other cap space teams that are likely to be involved. I could see some S&T teams willing to go there.

I can't imagine someone who is a worse fit than Philly for DeMar. Maybe they can use a secondary creator, but they need that guy to be able to defend and shoot and DeMar can do neither. If I were Philly, I'd much rather have Zach than DeMar.

Unless and until proved otherwise, Morey is a big-name hunter. DeMar is a big name.

I'm not sure what to think about the fit issue. Philly is only committed to two players right now. If they tear a lot of it down, They could find appropriate fits around Maxey, Embiid, and DeMar.

And say what you will about DeMar, but he is a durable, minutes-eating guy who can carry a heavy scoring load. That's exactly what they need for the inevitable extended Embiid absences.

I agree the Bulls could (and should!) play hardball with DeMar, with the outcome being either getting him on an affordable deal or letting him walk. But I don't think they will, particularly given reports that they've offered upward of $40M/year on a two-year deal already, per KC.

I think if they end up with certainty after a Zach trade on the other pieces of the team that they may play hardball to avoid the tax, like if it's we signed Pat for 20M and there's 30M under the tax left if we go all vet min guys, I could easily see us going take it or leave it. We'd probably then give in on years.

I agree that if you can trade Zach by draft night (June 27), with free agency starting June 30, it would give you some options. Can the Bulls extend him all the way up until free agency? I can't see them wanting him to become a UFA.

I agree the Bulls should flip Zach into Reaves and Rui if they can. Maybe if they find out they can, they'll be willing to move on from DeMar. But it sure doesn't seem to be where things have been trending.

Well, I don't think we're trending towards moving on from DeMar, but I don't think we're trending towards a point where the same tax question doesn't exist regardless of whether we make this trade. It could be their ultimate tax solution is just waive and stretch Lonzo.

I'll be pretty ticked if they stretch Lonzo to avoid one year of tax exposure, but I agree that would be a pretty Bulls-y move.

[dougthonus]

Unless and until proved otherwise, Morey is a big-name hunter. DeMar is a big name.

I don't really think DeMar is a big name to be honest, before we signed him, his interest level around the league was the TMLE.

I'm not sure what to think about the fit issue. Philly is only committed to two players right now. If they tear a lot of it down, They could find appropriate fits around Maxey, Embiid, and DeMar.

DeMar doesn't fit around Maxey and Embiid, and makes finding two other guys that fit around the 3 of them infinitely harder IMO. If you read any of the rumors about what they wanted, they explicitly were looking for shooting / defense around their stars at the deadline. Again, DeMar provides neither. Not sure why they would change their minds about that now, but who knows, maybe you are right and they think they just need more scoring no matter what.

I don't mean to dismiss it as a possibility or say "haha, no way you're stupid", I mean I could see it, but I think it's unlikely.

And say what you will about DeMar, but he is a durable, minutes-eating guy who can carry a heavy scoring load. That's exactly what they need for the inevitable extended Embiid absences.

We'll see. I'd be pretty surprised, but there are limited names. If they strike out on George, it isn't out of the realm of a desperation move. Either way, Philly will probably be resolved pretty quickly in the off-season, and it seems like George to Philly is nearly a lock, if that happens then DeMar is off the table for them, if it doesn't then I agree there's more of a chance.

I agree that if you can trade Zach by draft night (June 27), with free agency starting June 30, it would give you some options. Can the Bulls extend him all the way up until free agency? I can't see them wanting him to become a UFA.

I believe there is no deadline on extension and they can extend at any point, but I'm not 100% sure.

I'll be pretty ticked if they stretch Lonzo to avoid one year of tax exposure, but I agree that would be a pretty Bulls-y move.

I feel the same, but I feel it's definitely their back pocket move if they feel they need to.

[drosestruts]

Surprised to hear you don't think there will be a team willing to trade Zach into cap space. Per Spotrac the projected cap space for teams is:

Detroit - $64mm
Philly - $55mm
Utah - $38mm
OKC - $35mm
Orlando - $25mm
Spurs - $21mm

Also I thought Charlotte was going to have cap space but this website says no...

But anyway - I could see Detroit, Philly, Utah, Orlando, and San Anotnio all having varying degrees of interest. Pretty much everyone other than OKC where Zach would be redundant with Williams.

Every other team could use the talent and the position Zach fills.

[dougthonus]

Surprised to hear you don't think there will be a team willing to trade Zach into cap space. Per Spotrac the projected cap space for teams is:

Detroit - $64mm
Philly - $55mm
Utah - $38mm
OKC - $35mm
Orlando - $25mm
Spurs - $21mm

Also I thought Charlotte was going to have cap space but this website says no...

But anyway - I could see Detroit, Philly, Utah, Orlando, and San Anotnio all having varying degrees of interest. Pretty much everyone other than OKC where Zach would be redundant with Williams.

Every other team could use the talent and the position Zach fills.

I literally have no clue what a Zach trade market looks like. I could see it being anywhere from we can still get mid level assets to we have to attach an asset to get rid of him.

Will be fascinating to see what it looks like. It would certainly ease a lot of short term concerns to save money.

[jnrjr79]

Unless and until proved otherwise, Morey is a big-name hunter. DeMar is a big name.

I don't really think DeMar is a big name to be honest, before we signed him, his interest level around the league was the TMLE.

I think DeMar becoming invisible on a sleepy San Antonio squad was mostly the reason for that and that he has considerably boosted his reputation during his Bulls stint (including making All-NBA).

I'm not sure what to think about the fit issue. Philly is only committed to two players right now. If they tear a lot of it down, They could find appropriate fits around Maxey, Embiid, and DeMar.

DeMar doesn't fit around Maxey and Embiid, and makes finding two other guys that fit around the 3 of them infinitely harder IMO. If you read any of the rumors about what they wanted, they explicitly were looking for shooting / defense around their stars at the deadline. Again, DeMar provides neither. Not sure why they would change their minds about that now, but who knows, maybe you are right and they think they just need more scoring no matter what.

I don't mean to dismiss it as a possibility or say "haha, no way you're stupid", I mean I could see it, but I think it's unlikely.

In no way am I predicting he'll be their first choice, but DeMar is an ok-enough fit around those guys if the squad otherwise has defense and shooting.

And say what you will about DeMar, but he is a durable, minutes-eating guy who can carry a heavy scoring load. That's exactly what they need for the inevitable extended Embiid absences.

We'll see. I'd be pretty surprised, but there are limited names. If they strike out on George, it isn't out of the realm of a desperation move. Either way, Philly will probably be resolved pretty quickly in the off-season, and it seems like George to Philly is nearly a lock, if that happens then DeMar is off the table for them, if it doesn't then I agree there's more of a chance.

Agreed. It's just a chance and Philly is going to look in a number of other directions first, one would think (including Zach, which would be great).

I agree that if you can trade Zach by draft night (June 27), with free agency starting June 30, it would give you some options. Can the Bulls extend him all the way up until free agency? I can't see them wanting him to become a UFA.

I believe there is no deadline on extension and they can extend at any point, but I'm not 100% sure.

I *think* the way it works is that it's an extension until he becomes a UFA when his contract expires on June 30 and then if they sign him after, it's not technically an extension, but just a free agent signing, but since you have his bird rights, you don't need cap space to do it.

I'll be pretty ticked if they stretch Lonzo to avoid one year of tax exposure, but I agree that would be a pretty Bulls-y move.

I feel the same, but I feel it's definitely their back pocket move if they feel they need to.[/quote]

Oh, it seems like something they'd do. I'd just roll my eyes at intentionally reducing future cap space to get out of the luxury tax for a single season.

[dougthonus]

I think DeMar becoming invisible on a sleepy San Antonio squad was mostly the reason for that and that he has considerably boosted his reputation during his Bulls stint (including making All-NBA).

I'm not saying you are wrong. I don't know (and think it is somewhat unknowable). He made ALL-NBA 2 seasons ago and all-star team 1 season ago (and two seasons ago). He seems like he has declined each of the past two seasons (though not massively), and at his age, that trend should be expected to continue.

Given he was sub-allstar last year, you should expect he probably won't make it again. Both efficiency and volume have dropped for consecutive years, and he's not adding a lot of anything else other than scoring and is drifting at just slightly above league average now in efficiency. He's not good off the ball and isn't really worthy of playing a ton on the ball anymore.

That said, amazing in the clutch, but if he isn't your #1 clutch player, then that's maybe not so useful, is he going to be the #1 option in the clutch for most teams looking?

The Bulls have also missed the playoffs in consecutive years, not sure he's had much more face time really either.

That said, near all-star guy on the market, not many other options out there. He's been a work horse with minutes. Definitely a lot of reason to think the other way too.

I *think* the way it works is that it's an extension until he becomes a UFA when his contract expires on June 30 and then if they sign him after, it's not technically an extension, but just a free agent signing, but since you have his bird rights, you don't need cap space to do it.

My impression as well. Extension just removes the risk of other teams getting involved.

[League Circles]

I'm okay with Zach going to the Lakers, mainly because I think it could really happen. Prefer the Golden State ideas, of course. But I seriously doubt the Warriors are willing to part with Kuminga.

If they do this, don't they essentially have to let DeMar walk? If they're not trading Zach into someone's cap space, and therefore have to take matching-ish salary back in return, how do you do this without going into the tax (which they obviously aren't going to do)? There would also be some interesting roster spot issues because the Lakers would have to throw in a lot of bodies with Reeves to match salaries.

I think you could play hardball with Pat and DeMar and keep both and stay under the tax, but definitely depends where their contracts land.

Where is DeMar going besides here that will pay him even 25M per year?

That said, if you have to let DeMar walk, who cares? Where is this team going with DeMar leading it? You need to get long term assets, if you could somehow flip Zach into Reaves + Rui, you would be nuts not to.

I'd much rather play hardball with Demar and be willing to let him walk for perhaps anything more than 1-2 years, 25-30 mil per year or something, and if needed just let him walk and keep Zach than trade Zach for Rui and Reaves. I just don't see them as adding anything over Demar and Patrick and Caruso at the forward spots. It's slightly more flexible yes, but a real downgrade in talent IMO. Even if you're generous and consider one of them to be the Lakers third best player, and then consider their top notch top two guys and their mediocrity, you realize these guys are like nice 6th men talent at best. Zach seems to be much more likely to be a 2nd - 4th best guy on a good team.

[Red8911]

Trading a role player for a star. Now wouldn't that be grand.

There numbers last year were pretty similar. Reaves played in all 82 games and has had a better 3pt% and True Shooting% the past two seasons. Unless you are confident we are getting 2020-21 Zach Lavine, they aren't that far off.

One guy has improved each of the past 2 seasons, the other has declined for 3 years and is injury-prone. This is probably the best chance to get off his contract, we should jump on it.

Yup many here confuse the Zach from a couple of years ago. He just hasn’t been the same player and is not considered a star anymore until he proves that he can play at that level again.

As of now I agree Zach and Reaves are not too far apart, both can score and both can’t play defense. Reaves might even have the edge because he has been healthy and actually playing games.

[leo921]

Something like

Bulls trade - Lavine/Carter
Hornets trade - Ingram/Nance

Now that we Have Ingram we can let DDR walk. Resign Williams and Drummond. Draft Smith or Williams

Ayo/Caruso/Ball
White/Phillips
Ingram/Bitum
Williams/Nance/Smith
Vuc/Drummond /Smith

Can go more uptempo, no longer have to have everything go thru DDR/Lavine. I would try to get rid of Vuc as I think Nance/Drummond/Smith can more then make up for him. This would also give us flexibility as Ball/Ingrahm/Nance all expire after the season as well.

[WindyCityBorn]

Give up on the team belong relevant again in the foreseeable future.

[kulaz3000]

Trading a role player for a star. Now wouldn't that be grand.

There numbers last year were pretty similar. Reaves played in all 82 games and has had a better 3pt% and True Shooting% the past two seasons. Unless you are confident we are getting 2020-21 Zach Lavine, they aren't that far off.

One guy has improved each of the past 2 seasons, the other has declined for 3 years and is injury-prone. This is probably the best chance to get off his contract, we should jump on it.

Yup many here confuse the Zach from a couple of years ago. He just hasn’t been the same player and is not considered a star anymore until he proves that he can play at that level again.

As of now I agree Zach and Reaves are not too far apart, both can score and both can’t play defense. Reaves might even have the edge because he has been healthy and actually playing games.

Just to be clear, my comment wasn't in reference me thinking Zach is a star. It was in response to the tweet in itself, thinking that the Lakers can get a star in return with the main trade piece in return being Reaves. Point being, they'd be lucky to get a player like Zach in return.

[kulaz3000]

Something like

Bulls trade - Lavine/Carter
Hornets trade - Ingram/Nance

Now that we Have Ingram we can let DDR walk. Resign Williams and Drummond. Draft Smith or Williams

Ayo/Caruso/Ball
White/Phillips
Ingram/Bitum
Williams/Nance/Smith
Vuc/Drummond /Smith

Can go more uptempo, no longer have to have everything go thru DDR/Lavine. I would try to get rid of Vuc as I think Nance/Drummond/Smith can more then make up for him. This would also give us flexibility as Ball/Ingrahm/Nance all expire after the season as well.

I'd rather have DeMar over Ingram. They play within the same areas of the floor, they are both above average playmakers/passers for a wing player, Ingram though he has range, isn't a volume 3 point shooter like DeMar. Whilst the biggest negative is that Ingram is always hurt, at least DeMar you know he will play 75 plus games every season and will be available to play.

[ChiTownHero1992]

All the talk of Reaves...i want no part of him unless we are planning to flip him right away for something. I 1000% think he is overrated and as soon as he plays away from LBJ/Davis he looks like an undrafted FA again. This whole scenario screams THT again to me, i've watched Reaves alot and nothing stands out to me.

Your also talking about sending our "best player" (highly suspect and arguable but on paper best player) for an above-average undrafted guy....yikes how the "mighty" have fallen there!