Potential Zach Trade Partners? Playoff Edition.

[Jcool0]

FWIW, on the most recent Bulls Talk, KC Johnson said there was 0 chatter about LaVine at the combine. He said most trade chatter was centered around Brandon Ingram and to a lesser extent Trae Young. He did note just because he didn't hear anything didn't mean someone else wasn't talking about it, but he said he spent most of the combine networking with execs.

For a much as KC has contacts inside the building and usually when he is being a wet blanket he is right. He would be the last one to know if a LaVine trade was in the works. He can confirm a hire or trade pretty quickly but isn't really trying to break that news.

[dougthonus]

I'm still baffled how we are able to trade Zach without him showing he's healthy. I'm sure AK will try, but he's somewhat delusional that anyone will step-up. Even is we could say, give up our 1st to be rid of him, it seems crazy to me to do that if there is a reasonable chance that Zach's value will go up substantially by just waiting until the deadline.

If I ignore that there are human beings involved and that the locker room loves DeMar and ?? towards Zach, and that Zach doesn't want to be here while DeMar does, the logical, non-human solution is to keep Zach, let DeMar walk (or S&T to his preferred destination). Look to let Zach rehab his value and see what it looks like at the deadline or even next off-season.

That said, there are humans involved, and that human element of personalities and chemistry has a lot of weight. So much of this decision to me comes down to whether or not you believe Zach makes the locker room toxic in his return or not. If he does, I get why you feel you just have to move on, but I don't get the impression Zach is that toxic. Publicly he certainly hasn't been, and the reporting from KC has been that he's been very professional throughout internally too, even when he came back after the soft trade request (though was separated from the team after the injury).

[drosestruts]

I'm still baffled how we are able to trade Zach without him showing he's healthy. I'm sure AK will try, but he's somewhat delusional that anyone will step-up. Even is we could say, give up our 1st to be rid of him, it seems crazy to me to do that if there is a reasonable chance that Zach's value will go up substantially by just waiting until the deadline.

Big "I am not a doctor" energy - but I wasn't under the impression that the surgery Zach had was anything crazy or new.

Like with Lonzo I understand the need for him to show something to have any sort of value.

But with Zach I feel like he had a known common surgery that people get, and routinely heal from.

I'm not sure where the Zach injury concerns come from? He tore his ACL in 2017 and made a full come back. From 2018 - 2023 he played in 85% of games - and that includes two chunks of missed games due to covid, and another chunk missed due to late season tanking.

This year he misses time due to a season-ending surgery, but again, one that seems fairly routine within the NBA.

Dare I saw Zach, from a games played standpoint, has actually been one of the more durable and reliable max contract players in the NBA over the past 5 years.

[sco]

I'm still baffled how we are able to trade Zach without him showing he's healthy. I'm sure AK will try, but he's somewhat delusional that anyone will step-up. Even is we could say, give up our 1st to be rid of him, it seems crazy to me to do that if there is a reasonable chance that Zach's value will go up substantially by just waiting until the deadline.

Big "I am not a doctor" energy - but I wasn't under the impression that the surgery Zach had was anything crazy or new.

Like with Lonzo I understand the need for him to show something to have any sort of value.

But with Zach I feel like he had a known common surgery that people get, and routinely heal from.

I'm not sure where the Zach injury concerns come from? He tore his ACL in 2017 and made a full come back. From 2018 - 2023 he played in 85% of games - and that includes two chunks of missed games due to covid, and another chunk missed due to late season tanking.

This year he misses time due to a season-ending surgery, but again, one that seems fairly routine within the NBA.

Dare I saw Zach, from a games played standpoint, has actually been one of the more durable and reliable max contract players in the NBA over the past 5 years.

I think the injury was a long-standing foot issue that grew progressively worse. I think foot issues are on the list of things that GM's don't like to take a risk on since they tend to recur.

[drosestruts]

I'm still baffled how we are able to trade Zach without him showing he's healthy. I'm sure AK will try, but he's somewhat delusional that anyone will step-up. Even is we could say, give up our 1st to be rid of him, it seems crazy to me to do that if there is a reasonable chance that Zach's value will go up substantially by just waiting until the deadline.

Big "I am not a doctor" energy - but I wasn't under the impression that the surgery Zach had was anything crazy or new.

Like with Lonzo I understand the need for him to show something to have any sort of value.

But with Zach I feel like he had a known common surgery that people get, and routinely heal from.

I'm not sure where the Zach injury concerns come from? He tore his ACL in 2017 and made a full come back. From 2018 - 2023 he played in 85% of games - and that includes two chunks of missed games due to covid, and another chunk missed due to late season tanking.

This year he misses time due to a season-ending surgery, but again, one that seems fairly routine within the NBA.

Dare I saw Zach, from a games played standpoint, has actually been one of the more durable and reliable max contract players in the NBA over the past 5 years.

I think the injury was a long-standing foot issue that grew progressively worse. I think foot issues are on the list of things that GM's don't like to take a risk on since they tend to recur.

It being a long-standing issue that's grown worse is certainly news to me, unless by long-standing you mean just this season.

LaVine met the Bulls in Los Angeles, where he lives and has been rehabbing, for Saturday's 112-102 loss to the Clippers. He detailed the reasoning behind his decision to have surgery in February, saying he had a floating bone in his foot for months. The Bulls had made it a point to include in a news release that the decision to have the procedure was made by LaVine and his agency, Klutch Sports Group.

From this ESPN article on March 10 - https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39694982/bulls-zach-lavine-ahead-schedule-foot-surgery-recovery

Surgery on loose bone fragments seems quite common - off the top of my head, Anunoby and Morant had surgeries this season to deal with similar issues. Anunoby in particular seems poised to sign a max contract this offseason - so the injury and surgery seem like not a big deal.

[sco]

Big "I am not a doctor" energy - but I wasn't under the impression that the surgery Zach had was anything crazy or new.

Like with Lonzo I understand the need for him to show something to have any sort of value.

But with Zach I feel like he had a known common surgery that people get, and routinely heal from.

I'm not sure where the Zach injury concerns come from? He tore his ACL in 2017 and made a full come back. From 2018 - 2023 he played in 85% of games - and that includes two chunks of missed games due to covid, and another chunk missed due to late season tanking.

This year he misses time due to a season-ending surgery, but again, one that seems fairly routine within the NBA.

Dare I saw Zach, from a games played standpoint, has actually been one of the more durable and reliable max contract players in the NBA over the past 5 years.

I think the injury was a long-standing foot issue that grew progressively worse. I think foot issues are on the list of things that GM's don't like to take a risk on since they tend to recur.

It being a long-standing issue that's grown worse is certainly news to me, unless by long-standing you mean just this season.

LaVine met the Bulls in Los Angeles, where he lives and has been rehabbing, for Saturday's 112-102 loss to the Clippers. He detailed the reasoning behind his decision to have surgery in February, saying he had a floating bone in his foot for months. The Bulls had made it a point to include in a news release that the decision to have the procedure was made by LaVine and his agency, Klutch Sports Group.

From this ESPN article on March 10 - https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39694982/bulls-zach-lavine-ahead-schedule-foot-surgery-recovery

Surgery on loose bone fragments seems quite common - off the top of my head, Anunoby and Morant had surgeries this season to deal with similar issues. Anunoby in particular seems poised to sign a max contract this offseason - so the injury and surgery seem like not a big deal.

too lazy to look but I recall that it was an issue that he knew about going back to HS

[Chi town]

Looks like Garland, Allen, and Randle are all available.

I like a Zach for Allen and filler trade. Cavs then send out Garland for a big or wing.

AK will probably trade Zach for Trae or Randle.

[drosestruts]

I think the injury was a long-standing foot issue that grew progressively worse. I think foot issues are on the list of things that GM's don't like to take a risk on since they tend to recur.

It being a long-standing issue that's grown worse is certainly news to me, unless by long-standing you mean just this season.

LaVine met the Bulls in Los Angeles, where he lives and has been rehabbing, for Saturday's 112-102 loss to the Clippers. He detailed the reasoning behind his decision to have surgery in February, saying he had a floating bone in his foot for months. The Bulls had made it a point to include in a news release that the decision to have the procedure was made by LaVine and his agency, Klutch Sports Group.

From this ESPN article on March 10 - https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/39694982/bulls-zach-lavine-ahead-schedule-foot-surgery-recovery

Surgery on loose bone fragments seems quite common - off the top of my head, Anunoby and Morant had surgeries this season to deal with similar issues. Anunoby in particular seems poised to sign a max contract this offseason - so the injury and surgery seem like not a big deal.

too lazy to look but I recall that it was an issue that he knew about going back to HS

I find it reckless to throw out someone as a decades plus long injury that's growing progressively worse, and that just say you're too lazy to look it up.

[kulaz3000]

Looks like Garland, Allen, and Randle are all available.

I like a Zach for Allen and filler trade. Cavs then send out Garland for a big or wing.

AK will probably trade Zach for Trae or Randle.

I think the more likely target for AK would be Garland from that list, considering that they tried to trade for him recently. But I'm not sure if a trade of Zach for Darius makes sense for either team. Zach and Mitchell backcourt seems a little iffy. And though it would be a little better with Garland and White, it's not exactly an ideal backcourt either.

[Stratmaster]

I'm still baffled how we are able to trade Zach without him showing he's healthy. I'm sure AK will try, but he's somewhat delusional that anyone will step-up. Even is we could say, give up our 1st to be rid of him, it seems crazy to me to do that if there is a reasonable chance that Zach's value will go up substantially by just waiting until the deadline.

If I ignore that there are human beings involved and that the locker room loves DeMar and ?? towards Zach, and that Zach doesn't want to be here while DeMar does, the logical, non-human solution is to keep Zach, let DeMar walk (or S&T to his preferred destination). Look to let Zach rehab his value and see what it looks like at the deadline or even next off-season.

That said, there are humans involved, and that human element of personalities and chemistry has a lot of weight. So much of this decision to me comes down to whether or not you believe Zach makes the locker room toxic in his return or not. If he does, I get why you feel you just have to move on, but I don't get the impression Zach is that toxic. Publicly he certainly hasn't been, and the reporting from KC has been that he's been very professional throughout internally too, even when he came back after the soft trade request (though was separated from the team after the injury).

The bad blood that seems confirmed is Donovan and Lavine.

If Donovan and Zach are both pros, they should both see the self-serving value in figuring that out, having some success, and rebuilding the trade value. In fact, the only longshot chance of being better than they have been would have to include that.

And if you don't think that is possible, then nothing is on the line, and it still is the most sensible thing to do. In fact, featuring Zach and getting him back to the gaudy numbers before the trade deadline and getting real value for him positions the franchise the best.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

[dougthonus]

The bad blood that seems confirmed is Donovan and Lavine.

If Donovan and Zach are both pros, they should both see the self-serving value in figuring that out, having some success, and rebuilding the trade value. In fact, the only longshot chance of being better than they have been would have to include that.

And if you don't think that is possible, then nothing is on the line, and it still is the most sensible thing to do. In fact, featuring Zach and getting him back to the gaudy numbers before the trade deadline and getting real value for him positions the franchise the best.

I like Donovan more or less (I doubt we'd get a better coach if we fire him), but if the only hold up is Donovan and Zach's relationship, you can also consider just firing Donovan and bringing in a different coach (we won't). Donovan is a much less important asset than Zach to manage going forward. He's probably not going to last more than another year anyway. If you could move on from Donovan and make the Zach problem go away, you should just do that.

That said, that might be the biggest pain point chemistry wise, but both sides really favor a separation for other reasons regardless of that pain point.

[Red8911]

I'm still baffled how we are able to trade Zach without him showing he's healthy. I'm sure AK will try, but he's somewhat delusional that anyone will step-up. Even is we could say, give up our 1st to be rid of him, it seems crazy to me to do that if there is a reasonable chance that Zach's value will go up substantially by just waiting until the deadline.

If I ignore that there are human beings involved and that the locker room loves DeMar and ?? towards Zach, and that Zach doesn't want to be here while DeMar does, the logical, non-human solution is to keep Zach, let DeMar walk (or S&T to his preferred destination). Look to let Zach rehab his value and see what it looks like at the deadline or even next off-season.

That said, there are humans involved, and that human element of personalities and chemistry has a lot of weight. So much of this decision to me comes down to whether or not you believe Zach makes the locker room toxic in his return or not. If he does, I get why you feel you just have to move on, but I don't get the impression Zach is that toxic. Publicly he certainly hasn't been, and the reporting from KC has been that he's been very professional throughout internally too, even when he came back after the soft trade request (though was separated from the team after the injury).

The bad blood that seems confirmed is Donovan and Lavine.

If Donovan and Zach are both pros, they should both see the self-serving value in figuring that out, having some success, and rebuilding the trade value. In fact, the only longshot chance of being better than they have been would have to include that.

And if you don't think that is possible, then nothing is on the line, and it still is the most sensible thing to do. In fact, featuring Zach and getting him back to the gaudy numbers before the trade deadline and getting real value for him positions the franchise the best.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

What bad blood does Billy and Zach have ? All these years there has been just one incident where Billy benched Zach in the 4th during a close game and Zach wasn’t happy.

Other than that, Zach never got benched again and Billy has never ever said anything negative about him publicly.

Billy isn’t the reason Zach is getting traded. He’s actually the type of coach that gets along and is friendly with his players. If Zach somehow stays again Billy will obviously play him as he always has.

The reasons AK wants to trade Zach is mostly because of his performances, large contract, and injuries. It’s not hard to figure that out. These are the same reasons why other teams are reluctant to trade for him.

[jnrjr79]

If I ignore that there are human beings involved and that the locker room loves DeMar and ?? towards Zach, and that Zach doesn't want to be here while DeMar does, the logical, non-human solution is to keep Zach, let DeMar walk (or S&T to his preferred destination). Look to let Zach rehab his value and see what it looks like at the deadline or even next off-season.

That said, there are humans involved, and that human element of personalities and chemistry has a lot of weight. So much of this decision to me comes down to whether or not you believe Zach makes the locker room toxic in his return or not. If he does, I get why you feel you just have to move on, but I don't get the impression Zach is that toxic. Publicly he certainly hasn't been, and the reporting from KC has been that he's been very professional throughout internally too, even when he came back after the soft trade request (though was separated from the team after the injury).

The bad blood that seems confirmed is Donovan and Lavine.

If Donovan and Zach are both pros, they should both see the self-serving value in figuring that out, having some success, and rebuilding the trade value. In fact, the only longshot chance of being better than they have been would have to include that.

And if you don't think that is possible, then nothing is on the line, and it still is the most sensible thing to do. In fact, featuring Zach and getting him back to the gaudy numbers before the trade deadline and getting real value for him positions the franchise the best.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

What bad blood does Billy and Zach have ? All these years there has been just one incident where Billy benched Zach in the 4th during a close game and Zach wasn’t happy.

Other than that, Zach never got benched again and Billy has never ever said anything negative about him publicly.

Billy isn’t the reason Zach is getting traded. He’s actually the type of coach that gets along and is friendly with his players. If Zach somehow stays again Billy will obviously play him as he always has.

The reasons AK wants to trade Zach is mostly because of his performances, large contract, and injuries. It’s not hard to figure that out. These are the same reasons why other teams are reluctant to trade for him.

KC has consistently reported that Zach and Billy's relationship has not been repaired since that benching and that Zach still holds a grudge. It's crazy, but it seems to be true.

[Ice Man]

KC has consistently reported that Zach and Billy's relationship has not been repaired since that benching and that Zach still holds a grudge. It's crazy, but it seems to be true.

If a player holds a grudge against a coach for a one-time decision like that, I would move the player unless he is the Second Coming, meaning Baby Jordan. If a coach holds a grudge against a player because the player was stewing, I would move the coach.

Now, I don't know what the truth is with this situation, so treat my comment as a hypothetical. But man, that would be childish of either party, and working directly and openly against a team mindset.

[Stratmaster]

If I ignore that there are human beings involved and that the locker room loves DeMar and ?? towards Zach, and that Zach doesn't want to be here while DeMar does, the logical, non-human solution is to keep Zach, let DeMar walk (or S&T to his preferred destination). Look to let Zach rehab his value and see what it looks like at the deadline or even next off-season.

That said, there are humans involved, and that human element of personalities and chemistry has a lot of weight. So much of this decision to me comes down to whether or not you believe Zach makes the locker room toxic in his return or not. If he does, I get why you feel you just have to move on, but I don't get the impression Zach is that toxic. Publicly he certainly hasn't been, and the reporting from KC has been that he's been very professional throughout internally too, even when he came back after the soft trade request (though was separated from the team after the injury).

The bad blood that seems confirmed is Donovan and Lavine.

If Donovan and Zach are both pros, they should both see the self-serving value in figuring that out, having some success, and rebuilding the trade value. In fact, the only longshot chance of being better than they have been would have to include that.

And if you don't think that is possible, then nothing is on the line, and it still is the most sensible thing to do. In fact, featuring Zach and getting him back to the gaudy numbers before the trade deadline and getting real value for him positions the franchise the best.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

What bad blood does Billy and Zach have ? All these years there has been just one incident where Billy benched Zach in the 4th during a close game and Zach wasn’t happy.

Other than that, Zach never got benched again and Billy has never ever said anything negative about him publicly.

Billy isn’t the reason Zach is getting traded. He’s actually the type of coach that gets along and is friendly with his players. If Zach somehow stays again Billy will obviously play him as he always has.

The reasons AK wants to trade Zach is mostly because of his performances, large contract, and injuries. It’s not hard to figure that out. These are the same reasons why other teams are reluctant to trade for him.

I mean...OK. except everything you said is just made up.

Sports Illustrated December, 2023:
https://www.si.com/nba/bulls/news/billy-donovan-and-zach-lavines-relationship-is-apparently-broken

"LaVine and Donovan have had a lopsided relationship throughout the years, and their notable spat last year served as the crucial point of their sketchy bond in Chicago.

This season, their relationship got questioned even more when it was reported that Donovan got “unhappy” upon knowing Zach’s peculiar action in the postgame of their dramatic win against the Miami Heat last November. While coach Billy already insisted that the concerning matter around LaVine was successfully "handled internally," it still undoubtedly left a sour impression on the head coach"

"Per Joe Cowley of the Chicago Sun-Times, the professional connection between LaVine and Donovan is basically “broken” already, most especially on the side of the two-time All-Star."

February 2023 Per David Kaplan on ESPN 1000:
"The relationship between Chicago Bulls guard Zach LaVine and head coach Billy Donovan has "sailed,""

Cowley. January 8, 2023
""According to a source, while the LaVine-Billy Donovan player-coach relationship is still very workable it remains somewhat strained in the wake of a Nov. 18, late-game benching in which Donovan chose to ride out the final minutes against Orlando with LaVine out of the game."

[Stratmaster]

KC has consistently reported that Zach and Billy's relationship has not been repaired since that benching and that Zach still holds a grudge. It's crazy, but it seems to be true.

If a player holds a grudge against a coach for a one-time decision like that, I would move the player unless he is the Second Coming, meaning Baby Jordan. If a coach holds a grudge against a player because the player was stewing, I would move the coach.

Now, I don't know what the truth is with this situation, so treat my comment as a hypothetical. But man, that would be childish of either party, and working directly and openly against a team mindset.

Yep. You know it has to be way more than that, and in fact, the relationship has continued to deteriorate. I think they are both at fault. I do think it has been more on the coach and front office side though. They really screwed this up.

Benching your (at the time) prolific scoring all-star player down the stretch with the only explanation being that he was having a cold shooting night is pretty much unheard of in the NBA. It's about the worst thing a coach could do to insult a player of that caliber.

Add that Zach has been Billy's scapegoat since Billy got here, and Donovan almost never defends Lavine like he does other players, and you have to assume that Billy really doesn't care for Zach.

On the flip side, I don't think Zach did anything publicly until he got sick of the constant trade questions and scapegoating. but at that point, his demeanor did change. Nothing demonstrative. Just passive aggressive answers to questions, etc. And then there was the "PR misunderstanding" after the Miami game. Of course, when your team is publicly voicing their wishes that they prefer you weren't on the team, it would be kind of difficult to keep the same demeanor.

Regardless, it is in both of their best interests to get past that now. We will see how it goes assuming they don't find a trade partner before the new season opens.

[dougthonus]

Benching your (at the time) prolific scoring all-star player down the stretch with the only explanation being that he was having a cold shooting night is pretty much unheard of in the NBA. It's about the worst thing a coach could do to insult a player of that caliber.

I don't think that's true at all. I don't think a one time benching for a non superstar, one way offensive star that hurts you in other areas of the game when he's having a bad shooting night is unheard of at all or a thing that should be unrecoverable at all.

From what I've heard in my private conversations with media people, Zach never got over it, but that really feels like a Zach problem and not a Donovan problem.

Add that Zach has been Billy's scapegoat since Billy got here, and Donovan almost never defends Lavine like he does other players, and you have to assume that Billy really doesn't care for Zach.

I don't think that's true either. That might be true in the last year, but it definitely hasn't been true of his entire tenure, and again, Zach appears to be the one holding a grudge over something stupid. Even if you take the stance that Billy shouldn't have done that, Zach shouldn't have been pissed about it for more than a day.

To your point though, the relationship is burnt. They probably can be cordial with each other and work together, but this is where the human element really comes into play. I'm sure all of us can relate to working with a boss we didn't like or whom we didn't think believed in us or have our best interest at heart, it's really hard to give your best effort in that situation and Zach probably feels that way.

For those in management, if you've also had to manage someone whom you feel is at least partially checked out because they didn't handle feedback well, won't do the things you ask, doesn't seem motivate, it's hard for you to continue to put your time and effort into that person knowing you're unlikely to get much return on it.

It's a scenario that from a human perspective is going to remain sub-optimal unless there is a real sit down where people can legitimately move forward, but that's really hard because each minor thing going forward will just pick at old wounds even if you can temporarily get on the same page.

[dawhizz]

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[MrSparkle]

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Klutch deep at work.

[drosestruts]

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I will not read too much into a 2-second clip..... I will not....

Honestly it looks like AD and LeBron are sitting together and Zach is coming over to say hello. Not entirely sure what brought them all there, if it was a workout just for Bronny (looks like a lot of people in attendance for that).