Should Coby Keep Taking So Many Charges?

[Stratmaster]

One of the worst threads of the year.

Well ****. I won an award.

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[Stratmaster]

One of the worst threads of the year.

Only 22 days left to top it.

So you're saying there's a chance?

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[MikeDC]

Weird thing is taking charges is a lot like taking defensive hits in football. Both of which I have done a lot because I was always only a physical player. That is all I offered and mostly on defense. I tore my ACL polaying offense running the ball and my ckleat getting stuck and my left leg standing straight up while my body hit the ground. I reinsured it cutting on an offensive play in basketball trying to cut bast a defender etc... before it was fully healed. Kinda like Boobie Miles (in the movie not IRL) (also I could never cut like that elite of an athlete Maybe I look like Lebron in an 80 and older league lol)

Taking a charge though you can generally fall well..l not saying there is no wear and tear there is but you are prepped for it. Caruso had his worst injury not on defense.

I get your point but the point of sports is sacrificing your body. D Rose most felt was going to get hurt but it was his reckless attacks against defenses, not him taking chargers. Anything up in the air seems more tragic than a planted charge IMHO.


All that being said I might be wrong and Maybe White suffers a major injury.

Now that I'm thinking of it, I can't ever remember a guy really getting seriously injured taking (or trying) to take a charge. I'm sure it's happened, but I can't think of a guy who really got messed up doing it.

Again, already addressed this. Was never talking about long term injuries.

I have the numbers. The top 11 guys in taking charges have played less than 75% of their games so far this season. Not trying to say it is direct causality, but it's the best data available.

Players don't want to take them for a reason.

Take the L.

[Stratmaster]

Now that I'm thinking of it, I can't ever remember a guy really getting seriously injured taking (or trying) to take a charge. I'm sure it's happened, but I can't think of a guy who really got messed up doing it.

Again, already addressed this. Was never talking about long term injuries.

I have the numbers. The top 11 guys in taking charges have played less than 75% of their games so far this season. Not trying to say it is direct causality, but it's the best data available.

Players don't want to take them for a reason.

Take the L.

Lol. Sure. Players say they are dangerous. Not only for the defender but for the offensive player. But meatball fans who want their 190' scoring guard to be "hard hat lunch pail" think they are right.

Coby is throwing caution to the wind with the way he takes some of those charges. He isn't falling backwards as contact is made. He is getting run over in some of them.

Let me guess. You think Justin Fields should run more too?

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[Stratmaster]

Now that I'm thinking of it, I can't ever remember a guy really getting seriously injured taking (or trying) to take a charge. I'm sure it's happened, but I can't think of a guy who really got messed up doing it.

Again, already addressed this. Was never talking about long term injuries.

I have the numbers. The top 11 guys in taking charges have played less than 75% of their games so far this season. Not trying to say it is direct causality, but it's the best data available.

Players don't want to take them for a reason.

Take the L.

This one make you feel comfortable?

https://youtu.be/Z21gtIpo09w?si=6qlN5YlHFxBc4uFx

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[Stratmaster]

Now that I'm thinking of it, I can't ever remember a guy really getting seriously injured taking (or trying) to take a charge. I'm sure it's happened, but I can't think of a guy who really got messed up doing it.

Again, already addressed this. Was never talking about long term injuries.

I have the numbers. The top 11 guys in taking charges have played less than 75% of their games so far this season. Not trying to say it is direct causality, but it's the best data available.

Players don't want to take them for a reason.

Take the L.

This one, on the other hand, not so bad:

https://youtu.be/dW4nOi0xbNI?si=UEITpvBDHjoIGikE

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[rosenthall]

Think I agree with Stratmaster on this one.

I remember seeing Coby's charge taken from Zion and admiring his grit but also worrying that he might've hurt himself. It was clear it shook him a little bit, and he had to pause for a few minutes afterwards to catch himself.

I think if charges are taken with good technique then it's fairly harmless compared to other aspects of the sport, but Coby's technique strikes me as so-so. He's not always in a great position and he has a penchant for doing it against guys that are way bigger than him.

I would prefer it if he toned it down a bit against the really big guys. Getting barreled into by someone who's 60 lbs heavier than you at full speed increases the chances that you'll suffer wear-and-tear injuries. He's more than just a try-hard that has to dive for loose balls just to stay in the league, and he should play a little more defensively in this area.

[Flopper]

Some day the NBA will expand the restricted area and we won't have to argue about dumb things like this.

[MikeDC]

Hot take: charges shouldn't even be a thing

As with many things in life, what is actually happening is the opposite of what people think is happening, and changing the rules will have the opposite effect of what people want to happen.

What people (say they) want is for players to not get hurt. And they think, "Look, that guy's taking a hit, he's gonna get hurt!".

But what's really happening is that the existence of the possibility of getting called for a charge deters much more dangerous and aggressive plays. You get rid of the charge, and you increase the incentive for the Ja Morants, the D Roses, and high flying guys to play recklessly attacking the basket. They'll get hurt more frequently. And the big strong dudes like Zion will have no incentive to slow down at all, so if they can just blast into a dude and knock him out of the way, of course they're going to do it. So more injuries and more contact will happen that way too.

And of course, doing it would make playing any kind of defense fundamentally impossible. So get ready for lots cartoonish 212-213 basketball games with and lots of dudes getting hurt.

It's like Defund the Police. Some police are **** who abuse their power and commit crimes themselves. But the number of crimes they commit is dwarfed by the number of crimes that get added if you just decide to stop having police and enforcing the laws. Every prospective criminal knows they can just go take whatever they want and nobody's going to stop them.

[GoBlue72391]

Hot take: charges shouldn't even be a thing

As with many things in life, what is actually happening is the opposite of what people think is happening, and changing the rules will have the opposite effect of what people want to happen.

What people (say they) want is for players to not get hurt. And they think, "Look, that guy's taking a hit, he's gonna get hurt!".

But what's really happening is that the existence of the possibility of getting called for a charge deters much more dangerous and aggressive plays. You get rid of the charge, and you increase the incentive for the Ja Morants, the D Roses, and high flying guys to play recklessly attacking the basket. They'll get hurt more frequently. And the big strong dudes like Zion will have no incentive to slow down at all, so if they can just blast into a dude and knock him out of the way, of course they're going to do it. So more injuries and more contact will happen that way too.

And of course, doing it would make playing any kind of defense fundamentally impossible. So get ready for lots cartoonish 212-213 basketball games with and lots of dudes getting hurt.

It's like Defund the Police. Some police are **** who abuse their power and commit crimes themselves. But the number of crimes they commit is dwarfed by the number of crimes that get added if you just decide to stop having police and enforcing the laws. Every prospective criminal knows they can just go take whatever they want and nobody's going to stop them.

My reasoning has nothing to do with limiting injuries, it's because taking a charge isn't really a basketball play and goes against the spirit of the game.

[DuckIII]

GB, if a player cannot take a charge how is a defense ever going to stop a player who successfully shed his first defender and is cutting towards the basket? Without the charge to offset it, everything automatically becomes a block. So to avoid fouls teams will simply have to allow a loose player an open lane to the rim.

NBA basketball has already neutered defense to the point that we are on a precipice of unwatchability. For me, anyway. Any more significant rule changes further eliminating defense, and we might as well just play HORSE or Around The World.

The “spirit” of basketball includes defense. Otherwise it’s just a shooting contest.

[MikeDC]

Hot take: charges shouldn't even be a thing

As with many things in life, what is actually happening is the opposite of what people think is happening, and changing the rules will have the opposite effect of what people want to happen.

What people (say they) want is for players to not get hurt. And they think, "Look, that guy's taking a hit, he's gonna get hurt!".

But what's really happening is that the existence of the possibility of getting called for a charge deters much more dangerous and aggressive plays. You get rid of the charge, and you increase the incentive for the Ja Morants, the D Roses, and high flying guys to play recklessly attacking the basket. They'll get hurt more frequently. And the big strong dudes like Zion will have no incentive to slow down at all, so if they can just blast into a dude and knock him out of the way, of course they're going to do it. So more injuries and more contact will happen that way too.

And of course, doing it would make playing any kind of defense fundamentally impossible. So get ready for lots cartoonish 212-213 basketball games with and lots of dudes getting hurt.

It's like Defund the Police. Some police are **** who abuse their power and commit crimes themselves. But the number of crimes they commit is dwarfed by the number of crimes that get added if you just decide to stop having police and enforcing the laws. Every prospective criminal knows they can just go take whatever they want and nobody's going to stop them.

My reasoning has nothing to do with limiting injuries, it's because taking a charge isn't really a basketball play and goes against the spirit of the game.

To my way of thinking, it's absolutely a basketball play, in line with what Duck just said.

The "play" here is that the defender plays defense by obstructing the offensive player's path to the basket. Which is the essence of defense. If you don't allow the defender any means to prevent the offensive player from getting to the basket, you simply can't play any defense.

This is what everyone learns (or is supposed to learn) from day 1 about defense. The basic play in defense is to keep your body under control and establish position.

The basic play in offense is to keep your body under control and move around the defender to get closer to the basket.

A charge is good defense 101. Establish position, don't foul yourself, and that prevents a good shot.
A charge is the equivalent of bad offense 101. If you just crash into a guy because you're out of control, that's a bad basketball play.

Getting rid of the charge would be against the spirit of the game. You'd be replacing a feature that rewards coordination and skill with... what? It'd make a basketball game like a shootout.

[Stratmaster]

Think I agree with Stratmaster on this one.

I remember seeing Coby's charge taken from Zion and admiring his grit but also worrying that he might've hurt himself. It was clear it shook him a little bit, and he had to pause for a few minutes afterwards to catch himself.

I think if charges are taken with good technique then it's fairly harmless compared to other aspects of the sport, but Coby's technique strikes me as so-so. He's not always in a great position and he has a penchant for doing it against guys that are way bigger than him.

I would prefer it if he toned it down a bit against the really big guys. Getting barreled into by someone who's 60 lbs heavier than you at full speed increases the chances that you'll suffer wear-and-tear injuries. He's more than just a try-hard that has to dive for loose balls just to stay in the league, and he should play a little more defensively in this area.

You said it better than I did. Thanks.

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[Stratmaster]

As with many things in life, what is actually happening is the opposite of what people think is happening, and changing the rules will have the opposite effect of what people want to happen.

What people (say they) want is for players to not get hurt. And they think, "Look, that guy's taking a hit, he's gonna get hurt!".

But what's really happening is that the existence of the possibility of getting called for a charge deters much more dangerous and aggressive plays. You get rid of the charge, and you increase the incentive for the Ja Morants, the D Roses, and high flying guys to play recklessly attacking the basket. They'll get hurt more frequently. And the big strong dudes like Zion will have no incentive to slow down at all, so if they can just blast into a dude and knock him out of the way, of course they're going to do it. So more injuries and more contact will happen that way too.

And of course, doing it would make playing any kind of defense fundamentally impossible. So get ready for lots cartoonish 212-213 basketball games with and lots of dudes getting hurt.

It's like Defund the Police. Some police are **** who abuse their power and commit crimes themselves. But the number of crimes they commit is dwarfed by the number of crimes that get added if you just decide to stop having police and enforcing the laws. Every prospective criminal knows they can just go take whatever they want and nobody's going to stop them.

My reasoning has nothing to do with limiting injuries, it's because taking a charge isn't really a basketball play and goes against the spirit of the game.

To my way of thinking, it's absolutely a basketball play, in line with what Duck just said.

The "play" here is that the defender plays defense by obstructing the offensive player's path to the basket. Which is the essence of defense. If you don't allow the defender any means to prevent the offensive player from getting to the basket, you simply can't play any defense.

This is what everyone learns (or is supposed to learn) from day 1 about defense. The basic play in defense is to keep your body under control and establish position.

The basic play in offense is to keep your body under control and move around the defender to get closer to the basket.

A charge is good defense 101. Establish position, don't foul yourself, and that prevents a good shot.
A charge is the equivalent of bad offense 101. If you just crash into a guy because you're out of control, that's a bad basketball play.

Getting rid of the charge would be against the spirit of the game. You'd be replacing a feature that rewards coordination and skill with... what? It'd make a basketball game like a shootout.

Yeah, I get it. But I think there are different kinds of charges. Not all are equal.

In one, you have position, are well set, and the defender initiates contact and moves through the defender.

In the other, the defender jumps in front of the offensive player just in time to get their feet set, barely in front of the restricted area.

In the first, the offensive player has an opportunity to avoid the contact, and chose not to. In the other, they have already committed with a move to the rim and often have no chance of avoiding the contact.

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[MikeDC]

My reasoning has nothing to do with limiting injuries, it's because taking a charge isn't really a basketball play and goes against the spirit of the game.

To my way of thinking, it's absolutely a basketball play, in line with what Duck just said.

The "play" here is that the defender plays defense by obstructing the offensive player's path to the basket. Which is the essence of defense. If you don't allow the defender any means to prevent the offensive player from getting to the basket, you simply can't play any defense.

This is what everyone learns (or is supposed to learn) from day 1 about defense. The basic play in defense is to keep your body under control and establish position.

The basic play in offense is to keep your body under control and move around the defender to get closer to the basket.

A charge is good defense 101. Establish position, don't foul yourself, and that prevents a good shot.
A charge is the equivalent of bad offense 101. If you just crash into a guy because you're out of control, that's a bad basketball play.

Getting rid of the charge would be against the spirit of the game. You'd be replacing a feature that rewards coordination and skill with... what? It'd make a basketball game like a shootout.

Yeah, I get it. But I think there are different kinds of charges. Not all are equal.

In one, you have position, are well set, and the defender initiates contact and moves through the defender.

In the other, the defender jumps in front of the offensive player just in time to get their feet set, barely in front of the restricted area.

In the first, the offensive player has an opportunity to avoid the contact, and chose not to. In the other, they have already committed with a move to the rim and often have no chance of avoiding the contact.

I think this is like every foul. You have to draw the line somewhere, and it has to be something that can be somewhat reliably refereed. If the feet are set and you're outside the RA, it's a charge. If you move the RA further, you're just going to have a different spot where guys are barely in front of the restricted area.

I'm fine with guys who don't get their feet set being called for the blocking foul. Both sides have to worry about it, and that holds them back.

With the offensive player, I'd say that if you're about to attack and you see a guy in front of you, you have to anticipate that he might get set and get around him. That's kind of the whole point of the charge, is to get them to not do so dangerously. Take away the possibility of the charge, and they lose a deterrent against dangerous contact.

[Dez]

How often do players get steamrolled taking charges?

As soon as contact is made they fall to the floor to get the call.

Non-issue.

I'm not talking about "players". I'm talking about Coby.

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Is Coby not a player? It changes nothing, it's a non-issue.

[Stratmaster]

To my way of thinking, it's absolutely a basketball play, in line with what Duck just said.

The "play" here is that the defender plays defense by obstructing the offensive player's path to the basket. Which is the essence of defense. If you don't allow the defender any means to prevent the offensive player from getting to the basket, you simply can't play any defense.

This is what everyone learns (or is supposed to learn) from day 1 about defense. The basic play in defense is to keep your body under control and establish position.

The basic play in offense is to keep your body under control and move around the defender to get closer to the basket.

A charge is good defense 101. Establish position, don't foul yourself, and that prevents a good shot.
A charge is the equivalent of bad offense 101. If you just crash into a guy because you're out of control, that's a bad basketball play.

Getting rid of the charge would be against the spirit of the game. You'd be replacing a feature that rewards coordination and skill with... what? It'd make a basketball game like a shootout.

Yeah, I get it. But I think there are different kinds of charges. Not all are equal.

In one, you have position, are well set, and the defender initiates contact and moves through the defender.

In the other, the defender jumps in front of the offensive player just in time to get their feet set, barely in front of the restricted area.

In the first, the offensive player has an opportunity to avoid the contact, and chose not to. In the other, they have already committed with a move to the rim and often have no chance of avoiding the contact.

I think this is like every foul. You have to draw the line somewhere, and it has to be something that can be somewhat reliably refereed. If the feet are set and you're outside the RA, it's a charge. If you move the RA further, you're just going to have a different spot where guys are barely in front of the restricted area.

I'm fine with guys who don't get their feet set being called for the blocking foul. Both sides have to worry about it, and that holds them back.

With the offensive player, I'd say that if you're about to attack and you see a guy in front of you, you have to anticipate that he might get set and get around him. That's kind of the whole point of the charge, is to get them to not do so dangerously. Take away the possibility of the charge, and they lose a deterrent against dangerous contact.

To be clear, I am not one for the complete elimination of them.

I think the ref should have more leeway. Like with traveling. Possibly a player should have to be set for 1 step of the offensive player movement. If the offensive player takes a full step before making contact and you are set, it's a charge. If not, it's blocking.

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[Stratmaster]

How often do players get steamrolled taking charges?

As soon as contact is made they fall to the floor to get the call.

Non-issue.

I'm not talking about "players". I'm talking about Coby.

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Is Coby not a player? It changes nothing, it's a non-issue.

Some players are good at taking charges safely. Coby isn't. You obviously aren't following the discussion.

And yes. It's an issue.

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[Dez]

I'm not talking about "players". I'm talking about Coby.

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Is Coby not a player? It changes nothing, it's a non-issue.

Some players are good at taking charges safely. Coby isn't. You obviously aren't following the discussion.

And yes. It's an issue.

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I'm following the "discussion", Coby take charges fine and it's still a non-issue.

[Stratmaster]

Is Coby not a player? It changes nothing, it's a non-issue.

Some players are good at taking charges safely. Coby isn't. You obviously aren't following the discussion.

And yes. It's an issue.

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I'm following the "discussion", Coby take charges fine and it's still a non-issue.

Ok Dez. You said it, so....

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