PG Buls vs Raptors: Miserable 2nd half, Bulls outcoached AGAIN!

[Wingy]

Meh, we're down 2 key guys and our other guys are either running out of gas from overplaying (esp Caruso and Demar) or are non-rotation level guys. I like that we expect better, but it's not realistic at this juncture.

I know many want change for change's sake, but I'd be happy if somehow we can either reintegrate Zach as someone who we want to be here and wants to be here or we can turn him into a good young player and a pick.

C’mon, excuses. Valid overall for a stretch, but absolutely invalid for this game.

Raptors were missing three starters in IQ, RJ, and Poeltl. That puts the two teams on pretty level ground in terms of missing key guys.

We were the home team.

They really have no reason to come out and lose last night.

[The Force.]

Too good to tank, too bad to make the playoffs. The epitome of NBA hell.

[Ice Man]

They really have no reason to come out and lose last night.

Well, it's the NBA. OKC lost by 16 to the Pistons the other night. Philly got destroyed by the same Portland team that we rolled. Yeah no Embiid but come on now.

I mean I expected the Bulls to win, too. And they should have. But actually they have been winning quite a lot since Thanksgiving.

[Ice Man]

Too good to tank, too bad to make the playoffs. The epitome of NBA hell.

You omitted one critical aspect of NBA hell. No young All Star to build the team around.

Oh yeah ... about that.

[Hangtime84]

Raptors announcers were very happy vooch was in defensively over Dre lol

[Infinity2152]

Meh, we're down 2 key guys and our other guys are either running out of gas from overplaying (esp Caruso and Demar) or are non-rotation level guys. I like that we expect better, but it's not realistic at this juncture.

I know many want change for change's sake, but I'd be happy if somehow we can either reintegrate Zach as someone who we want to be here and wants to be here or we can turn him into a good young player and a pick.

C’mon, excuses. Valid overall for a stretch, but absolutely invalid for this game.

Raptors were missing three starters in IQ, RJ, and Poeltl. That puts the two teams on pretty level ground in terms of missing key guys.

We were the home team.

They really have no reason to come out and lose last night.

Bulls are missing three starters too, lol! Everybody seems to forget Bulls have been down a starter for years when judging their record. Lonzo, Zach, and Pat are starters. Would argue Ball being out hurts us as much or more than any other injury in the league. It's like everybody says this roster is horribly constructed, no post defense, poor three point shooting, dominant iso player, no top 10 player, Zach's a bum, but should be coached to winning regularly somehow anyway. Is the coaching making the team look bad, or are the players making the system look bad? Half the room is saying blow it up as a .500 team, but pretty much every player besides Coby needs to go, the coach as well.

Hard to judge a team's overall structure when down a $20 mill impactful starter and blaming the rest of the team for not beating generally healthier teams. Unless you have a super effective player like Giannis or Embid, tough to overcome NBA level talent like that. Every team is coaching and playing to win, winning in the NBA is hard. Quite sure Ball would have helped us win some of those games we lost, and they CAN'T replace him yet.

[dawhizz]

Don’t worry guys, we’ll barely beat the Hornets which will convince AK that no changes need to be made.

[Wingy]

They really have no reason to come out and lose last night.

Well, it's the NBA. OKC lost by 16 to the Pistons the other night. Philly got destroyed by the same Portland team that we rolled. Yeah no Embiid but come on now.

I mean I expected the Bulls to win, too. And they should have. But actually they have been winning quite a lot since Thanksgiving.

People across RealGM highlight that Pistons win, but no one mentions OKC literally stopped trying. SGA/Dort didn’t play in the 4th, and Chet logged 2 minutes and change and they weren’t down by that much heading in.

Anyway, point taken anything can happen in the regular season. Still, being at home against a team just was injured as us, playing the likes of Jontay Porter…Garrett Temple saw the floor…equivalent to us needing to roll out JP/Dalen. Thad had been racking up tons of DNP-CDs this season, 24 of em.

Zero rim protection for the Raptors, big part of the reason why Ayo feasted going to the basket.

As KC tweeted -
Bad loss; blew 16-pt lead at home

Raptors 30 pts off TOs and 19 2nd-chance points

[Wingy]

Bulls are missing three starters too, lol!

Did you notice my response was calling out a post that highlighted we were missing key players, without acknowledging the same for them? What’s your point?

[Ice Man]

Still, being at home against a team just was injured as us, playing the likes of Jontay Porter…Garrett Temple saw the floor…equivalent to us needing to roll out JP/Dalen. Thad had been racking up tons of DNP-CDs this season, 24 of em.

Oh, no question. Toronto's lineup was pitiful. That was a 15-win unit. With one of those wins coming last night.

[Infinity2152]

Bulls are missing three starters too, lol!

Did you notice my response was calling out a post that highlighted we were missing key players, without acknowledging the same for them? What’s your point?

My point is that Lonzo is usually not counted when people are talking about us missing key players. You specifically said three, so I just wanted to point out we're missing three as well. The other posts only mentioned Zach and Pat being out. Basically it was a pretty fair fight that we lost in the end, it happens. Agree with you, we were on level ground, which means the chance of each team winning should be fairly even. Not a slam dunk for us because we're at home. We're also missing Craig, who is impactful on this low defense, low rebounding team. Basically the starting AND backup PF, starting PG, starting SG.

Not a smack at you, my guy. Just wish people acknowledge the Bulls have been at most at 80% for awhile now, and that's when everybody besides Lonzo is healthy. When we lose guys like Lavine and Pat, our talent level plummets.

[drosestruts]

I will say - I'd favor Toronto's end of bench players over ours.

Yes there's some break glass in case of emergency to the likes of Garrett Temple and Thad Young, but these are veteran players who have contributed to winning basketball in their careers.

When we get down to the end of our bench it's a bunch of unproven young guys who potentially don't belong in the NBA - Phillips, Terry, Taylor, etc.

[drosestruts]

Too good to tank, too bad to make the playoffs. The epitome of NBA hell.

You omitted one critical aspect of NBA hell. No young All Star to build the team around.

Oh yeah ... about that.

Oh no not that NBA hell debate again.

I'll keep saying it - but I'll take our current position over Detroits 10/10, everyday of the week.

Also do we not have a young all-star to build a team around? When did 28 become ancient?

[ChettheJet]

Yeah Billy's strategy of NOT passing the ball, keeping Vuc out of the post, turning the ball over, watching the shot clock expire would never happen with a good coach.

The players once again decided not to do what got them a big 1st half lead, the ball had ISO written all over it and they refused to guard the lane.

The next time some of you call Patrick Williams a wasted pick bust, maybe you blinked and missed that his typical defense on whoever has the ball would likely have made a huge difference.

[MikeDC]

There was a lot going on in this game that I think is getting distilled down to, and over simplified to - mid 3 bad.

1. Vuc does suck. Everyone's right about that. On top of being bad, he is just frustrating to watch play

2. I really thought DeMar was going to carry us to a win in that 4th quarter. After that vintage DeRozan dunk on Bruce Brown he just had that look of a guy who was going to will this team to victory. And he tried, he also got absolutely nothing from anybody else on this roster. They very predictably started aggressively doubling and trapping DeRozan pretty much right as he crossed half court. I see multiple comments in the game thread and here of "DeRozan needs to learn to pass" - but as Stacye pointed out multiple times during the game, no one is coming to DeRozan and making themselves available. There's Brown and Young trapping DeRozan, than Schroder playing like a free safety all between DeRozan and the next closest Bull.

3. They did make an adjustment WAY too late to have Coby set screens for DeMar instead of Vuc. Vuc who does his typical slip screen soft nonsense then rolls away from DeMar when everyone in the UC and watching at home knows it's the 4th quarter and the opposing team is going to double and trap DeMar.

4. Coby has improved a lot, but he is not ready to lead a team.

5. Five guys out with injuries on a 14-man roster is brutal.

6. Good games from DeMar and Ayo. Everyone else was meh to bad in my eyes. DeRozan scored 13 points in the 4th quarter. The rest of the team combined contributed 5 and were a combined 1-7 from the field. There's a real chicken or the egg thing here and has been for years - I'm of the view that we run DeMar iso's so much in the 4th because it's the only thing that works as defenses tighten up. Everyone else disappears. Other think everyone else disappears because DeMar ball hogs in the 4th. If not for DeMar, our 4th quarters would look a lot worse.

7. DeMar is top-25 in Win Shares and has the second highest Win Shares of all Small-Forwards.

This is pretty much what I saw too. I'm a Coby guy, but last night was like a lot of games where he just looks gassed by the end. A lot of going from a "good" player to a "great" player is having fanatical stamina, and Coby doesn't. yet? Caruso is kind of the same. He's all or nothing, but for bursts.

This is where vets make a difference. Mostly, the onus is on Vuc, because he's supposed to be a pro, but he's out there doing is usual **** of softly missing shots at the rim and softly screening for the ball handler (usually DeMar, who's getting doubled).

[Indomitable]

Raptors announcers were very happy vooch was in defensively over Dre lol

They have eyes. This front office and Billy are scammers.

Billy is not doing anything to elevate the team. The management are hoping for a miracle.

[MrSparkle]

There was a lot going on in this game that I think is getting distilled down to, and over simplified to - mid 3 bad.

1. Vuc does suck. Everyone's right about that. On top of being bad, he is just frustrating to watch play

2. I really thought DeMar was going to carry us to a win in that 4th quarter. After that vintage DeRozan dunk on Bruce Brown he just had that look of a guy who was going to will this team to victory. And he tried, he also got absolutely nothing from anybody else on this roster. They very predictably started aggressively doubling and trapping DeRozan pretty much right as he crossed half court. I see multiple comments in the game thread and here of "DeRozan needs to learn to pass" - but as Stacye pointed out multiple times during the game, no one is coming to DeRozan and making themselves available. There's Brown and Young trapping DeRozan, than Schroder playing like a free safety all between DeRozan and the next closest Bull.

3. They did make an adjustment WAY too late to have Coby set screens for DeMar instead of Vuc. Vuc who does his typical slip screen soft nonsense then rolls away from DeMar when everyone in the UC and watching at home knows it's the 4th quarter and the opposing team is going to double and trap DeMar.

4. Coby has improved a lot, but he is not ready to lead a team.

5. Five guys out with injuries on a 14-man roster is brutal.

6. Good games from DeMar and Ayo. Everyone else was meh to bad in my eyes. DeRozan scored 13 points in the 4th quarter. The rest of the team combined contributed 5 and were a combined 1-7 from the field. There's a real chicken or the egg thing here and has been for years - I'm of the view that we run DeMar iso's so much in the 4th because it's the only thing that works as defenses tighten up. Everyone else disappears. Other think everyone else disappears because DeMar ball hogs in the 4th. If not for DeMar, our 4th quarters would look a lot worse.

7. DeMar is top-25 in Win Shares and has the second highest Win Shares of all Small-Forwards.

This is pretty much what I saw too. I'm a Coby guy, but last night was like a lot of games where he just looks gassed by the end. A lot of going from a "good" player to a "great" player is having fanatical stamina, and Coby doesn't. yet? Caruso is kind of the same. He's all or nothing, but for bursts.

This is where vets make a difference. Mostly, the onus is on Vuc, because he's supposed to be a pro, but he's out there doing is usual **** of softly missing shots at the rim and softly screening for the ball handler (usually DeMar, who's getting doubled).

From this angle, despite the turn overs as the ball-handler, Demar's ability to execute at a solid level for 41 minutes is pretty darn impressive. Hate somethings about his game, but all things considered, this guy is still the best player on the Bulls by a mile (and largely why we ... are not good). You could tell guys like Coby, Zach just get entirely gassed to come up with a huge play (like Demar's poster dunk).

When Coby had his hot streak, that was the player we really want/need. But the full season stats don't lie -- he's just barely become an above-average starter. Hopefully next year he jumps another gear.

[Ice Man]

Also do we not have a young all-star to build a team around? When did 28 become ancient?

I no longer count Zach as a Bull. (Nor for that matter as an All Star, although he could well regain his form. But he has been no All Star this year.)

[dougthonus]

He used to talk about the Bulls all the time. Especially during the Thibs years but even well after that a big portion of the show was Bulls talk. What's happened there is what's happened to this board. They've been so irrelevant for so long and have nothing to look forward to for the foreseeable future = Alot less enthusiasm to talk about.

The Bears on the other hand, atleast have a lot going on right now to atleast give us hope. It's probably false hope, but still.

I think this is exactly it.

What have the Bulls done since the Lonzo/DeMar/Caruso year? They've effectively just taken two full years off from doing anything meaningful at all and the first off-season, you could excuse it because you thought Lonzo would be back, but the next trade deadline and next off-season? No, you knew this wasn't going anywhere, you knew you were out of time.

We'll see what they do this trade deadline, but by waiting out the value on their assets, it's tougher and tougher to envision a meaningful move even being possible.

[Wingy]

Also do we not have a young all-star to build a team around? When did 28 become ancient?

I no longer count Zach as a Bull. (Nor for that matter as an All Star, although he could well regain his form. But he has been no All Star this year.)

No denying it this year, but he was definitely there as recently as post-all star break last season.

The AK Effect has made a lot of our players unhappy and put them in a tough position. There’s health, but I truly think Zach is just fed up with his work environment and being on a team that doesn’t fit at all despite it being a bunch of good dudes.