PG: Bulls Beat Charlotte

[HomoSapien]

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Damn, he's basically calling his players trash (which would be correct, but still lol)

Seems like a shot at the FO. You know who has talent? Zach Lavine.

[nekorajo]

Over the past 3 years we're 101-101 in games Zach plays and 16-19 in games he misses.

This would suggest we are not better without Zach.

That data seems to suggest that we are basically just as good with or without him.

[drosestruts]

Over the past 3 years we're 101-101 in games Zach plays and 16-19 in games he misses.

This would suggest we are not better without Zach.

That data seems to suggest that we are basically just as good with or without him.

I take less umbrage with that position than I do the slanderous lie that we're better without him (and by extension any team would be better without him).

[Chi town]

I am actually still ok with derozan being here. He is a good veteran for the team that is still trying to compete. But last night made me wonder if it's better just to get rid of derozan for the sake of coby taking the next step. Coby is respectful and adheres to the pecking order. So when lavine or derozan is on the floor with him he leans on them when the truth is we are better when he is 1st option. 1st option as in decision maker distributor and scorer. I hope he continues to lead going forward but part of me is afraid he will lean on derozan again especially vs these tougher teams.

DDR barely raises our floor and def limits our ceiling.

Healthy Zach with Coby and without DDR opens up the whole floor and increases pace. Vuc still doesn’t fit but he can work. Vuc and DDR is a killer on D, pace, and space.

[RSP83]

I am actually still ok with derozan being here. He is a good veteran for the team that is still trying to compete. But last night made me wonder if it's better just to get rid of derozan for the sake of coby taking the next step. Coby is respectful and adheres to the pecking order. So when lavine or derozan is on the floor with him he leans on them when the truth is we are better when he is 1st option. 1st option as in decision maker distributor and scorer. I hope he continues to lead going forward but part of me is afraid he will lean on derozan again especially vs these tougher teams.

DDR barely raises our floor and def limits our ceiling.

Healthy Zach with Coby and without DDR opens up the whole floor and increases pace. Vuc still doesn’t fit but he can work. Vuc and DDR is a killer on D, pace, and space.

DDR is a fool's gold. I hate to say that, because if you take out all this Bulls context, he's a great pro and seems like an even better teammate. His offensive game is inefficient for today's standard, but he has one of the most beautiful mid-range game I've ever seen, and his peers really respect him and his game.

But as have been said, he doesn't raise the ceiling. At the moment I think we have a narrow gap between our floor and ceiling. I do think he raise our floor, but that's because nobody can replace his production assuming Zach is not coming back. But I think, now, if you replace Demar with Zach, I don't think you lose much floor, but the ceiling is definitely higher. And that's also because Coby has improved to a point where I think he can mitigate for Zach's weaknesses (poor handling and decision making).

So I truly believe the best way forward is to move on from Demar. Either trade him in the next few days or just let him walk in the summer.

[sco]

I am actually still ok with derozan being here. He is a good veteran for the team that is still trying to compete. But last night made me wonder if it's better just to get rid of derozan for the sake of coby taking the next step. Coby is respectful and adheres to the pecking order. So when lavine or derozan is on the floor with him he leans on them when the truth is we are better when he is 1st option. 1st option as in decision maker distributor and scorer. I hope he continues to lead going forward but part of me is afraid he will lean on derozan again especially vs these tougher teams.

DDR barely raises our floor and def limits our ceiling.

Healthy Zach with Coby and without DDR opens up the whole floor and increases pace. Vuc still doesn’t fit but he can work. Vuc and DDR is a killer on D, pace, and space.

DDR is a fool's gold. I hate to say that, because if you take out all this Bulls context, he's a great pro and seems like an even better teammate. His offensive game is inefficient for today's standard, but he has one of the most beautiful mid-range game I've ever seen, and his peers really respect him and his game.

But as have been said, he doesn't raise the ceiling. At the moment I think we have a narrow gap between our floor and ceiling. I do think he raise our floor, but that's because nobody can replace his production assuming Zach is not coming back. But I think, now, if you replace Demar with Zach, I don't think you lose much floor, but the ceiling is definitely higher. And that's also because Coby has improved to a point where I think he can mitigate for Zach's weaknesses (poor handling and decision making).

So I truly believe the best way forward is to move on from Demar. Either trade him in the next few days or just let him walk in the summer.

I think DDR helps us win, but we need good defenders next to him, so it's either him or Zach, next to Coby, Caruso and Pat.

[2weekswithpay]

Over the past 3 years we're 101-101 in games Zach plays and 16-19 in games he misses.

This would suggest we are not better without Zach.

That data seems to suggest that we are basically just as good with or without him.

I take less umbrage with that position than I do the slanderous lie that we're better without him (and by extension any team would be better without him).

I mean if there's barely any difference in team performance when your 40M star isn't playing then you're probably better off without him if that means you can spend that 40M elsewhere.

[jump]

As much as I respect DDR for his game, his professionalism and his influence, I’d feel way better about this team’s future if he was traded for a young promising PF or C (more promising than PW).

[kodo]

Over the past 3 years we're 101-101 in games Zach plays and 16-19 in games he misses.

This would suggest we are not better without Zach.

That data seems to suggest that we are basically just as good with or without him.

Very believable because Derozan replicates him by production. DDR is mostly mid range / FTs where Zach is more 3 based, but points per possession in our best season ('22) they were almost identical, offensive rating almost identical, defensive rating almost identical. They were also almost the same on rebounds, steals, and blocks.

If the Pels had 2 CJ McCollums, and someone said they don't seem any worse when one of the CJ's doesn't play, I wouldn't doubt it.

Given his age Derozan isn't the one I'd keep, but trading one of them has been the obvious move for a while now.

[Wingy]

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Damn, he's basically calling his players trash (which would be correct, but still lol)

Seems like a shot at the FO. You know who has talent? Zach Lavine.

Yeah and similar wins to this one are racked up and knuckleheads point to it as evidence that we’re clearly better without Zach.

[Stratmaster]

Correlation =/= causation

A lot of Bulls started the season playing very poorly. In our embarassing loss to Detroit, in which Zach scored 51 points, Coby and Williams started and combined for 0 points. Two starters putting up goose eggs is tough.

Also - excuse me? Zach was mediocore in his recent 7 games he played? In those 7 games he contributed:

15 points on 49/39/81 shooting splits with a 62.5% TS%. Grabbed 6 boards and 5 assists per game.

A guard with a 62% TS% is just not medicore.

Obviously I am with you on this.

But even if someone is a Zach hater, the fact is that trading him was always the wrong move.

If someone feels the Bulls aren't going anywhere with this group, that would be less reason to trade Zach.

If the issue is you have an aging roster with a play-in ceiling, which is what most claim, then the obvious move is to trade Demar and Vuc. You think Zach is a losing player and has no value? Ok. Then after those trades the team tanks while his numbers go up. He becomes more valuable in the off season.

Or. Zach, Coby, Caruso and Drummond turn out to be better than Zach, Coby, Demar and Vuc and play the style of basketball you want.

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Agree that he’s always been the 1 of The 3 that makes the least sense to trade from a basketball and team building perspective.

But I still vastly prefer to trade them all, so it’s not really a reason to keep Zach as much it is yet another piece of evidence that the FO is just dreadfully incompetent.

Somebody has to take up cap space while you are amassing all those 18 year old future hall of famers

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[Stratmaster]

Correlation =/= causation

A lot of Bulls started the season playing very poorly. In our embarassing loss to Detroit, in which Zach scored 51 points, Coby and Williams started and combined for 0 points. Two starters putting up goose eggs is tough.

Also - excuse me? Zach was mediocore in his recent 7 games he played? In those 7 games he contributed:

15 points on 49/39/81 shooting splits with a 62.5% TS%. Grabbed 6 boards and 5 assists per game.

A guard with a 62% TS% is just not medicore.

Obviously I am with you on this.

But even if someone is a Zach hater, the fact is that trading him was always the wrong move.

If someone feels the Bulls aren't going anywhere with this group, that would be less reason to trade Zach.

If the issue is you have an aging roster with a play-in ceiling, which is what most claim, then the obvious move is to trade Demar and Vuc. You think Zach is a losing player and has no value? Ok. Then after those trades the team tanks while his numbers go up. He becomes more valuable in the off season.

Or. Zach, Coby, Caruso and Drummond turn out to be better than Zach, Coby, Demar and Vuc and play the style of basketball you want.

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On Paper Trading Zach makes the least sense. In terms of talent both future and present and fit with a team. In reality, if you watched any games with him after he returned from injury the team didn't mesh with him. AND he asked for a trade and wants to move on.

This logic is completely sound "If someone feels the Bulls aren't going anywhere with this group, that would be less reason to trade Zach.

If the issue is you have an aging roster with a play-in ceiling, which is what most claim, then the obvious move is to trade Demar and Vuc. You think Zach is a losing player and has no value? Ok. Then after those trades the team tanks while his numbers go up. He becomes more valuable in the off season."

..............if you watched no games after he returned and ignore his desire to be moved.

In fact I moved from trade the old guys build around Zach and Coby to where I am not during that time....

He played fine when he returned and he and Coby sure enjoyed it.

He agreed to a trade. It wasn't his idea. There doesn't appear to be a trade available.

Other than that. Sure.

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[Stratmaster]

Over the past 3 years we're 101-101 in games Zach plays and 16-19 in games he misses.

This would suggest we are not better without Zach.

That data seems to suggest that we are basically just as good with or without him.

If you consider .500 and .450 "basically just as good".



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[nekorajo]

Over the past 3 years we're 101-101 in games Zach plays and 16-19 in games he misses.

This would suggest we are not better without Zach.

That data seems to suggest that we are basically just as good with or without him.

If you consider .500 and .450 "basically just as good".



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Correct. Further, if they continue this year's trend of winning more than 50% of their games without Zach, the 3 game margin will flip in the other direction, and I will still draw the same conclusion from that data.

[PJSteven22]

But not so lately that we care more for the recent 5-2 record with LaVine vs the 3-3 without LaVine?

A 5-2 isn’t going to change people’s minds after they started winning when he went down the first time. Plus he looked mostly mediocre in that stretch. Also Pat went down at the same time Zach went down.

Correlation =/= causation

A lot of Bulls started the season playing very poorly. In our embarassing loss to Detroit, in which Zach scored 51 points, Coby and Williams started and combined for 0 points. Two starters putting up goose eggs is tough.

Also - excuse me? Zach was mediocore in his recent 7 games he played? In those 7 games he contributed:

15 points on 49/39/81 shooting splits with a 62.5% TS%. Grabbed 6 boards and 5 assists per game.

A guard with a 62% TS% is just not medicore.

I’ve watched him since he was in Minnesota. To his standards he was mediocre. You’re missing the point. I’m not saying correlation equals causation but Pat is your only guy that’s a big forward that can guard.

[MrSparkle]

Is the hope to fire Billy, ditch Vuc/Demar, and try a 3rd build attempt around Zach?

I would've been on-board with that last year, not as a "build" but as a pivot.

But he legit looks worse than ever, this season.

[Wingy]

Is the hope to fire Billy, ditch Vuc/Demar, and try a 3rd build attempt around Zach?

I would've been on-board with that last year, not as a "build" but as a pivot.

But he legit looks worse than ever, this season.

Part fair, part unfair, full reality - Zach’s value is as low as ever. DeMar is fading right in front of our eyes. Vucebrick fell off the cliff that some predicted.

We’d all be best served to take a break from the Bulls for a few years to be honest. But most of us are sick gluttons for punishment. This forum is like a support group for us to come together and commiserate.

[MrSparkle]

Is the hope to fire Billy, ditch Vuc/Demar, and try a 3rd build attempt around Zach?

I would've been on-board with that last year, not as a "build" but as a pivot.

But he legit looks worse than ever, this season.

Part fair, part unfair, full reality - Zach’s value is as low as ever. DeMar is fading right in front of our eyes. Vucebrick fell off the cliff that some predicted.

We’d all be best served to take a break from the Bulls for a few years to be honest. But most of us are sick gluttons for punishment. This forum is like a support group for us to come together and commiserate.

Vuc was fool’s gold. I don’t think he fell off a cliff. We just bought high on junk. If anything, his defense is better than when he got here.

[Wingy]

Vuc was fool’s gold. I don’t think he fell off a cliff. We just bought high on junk. If anything, his defense is better than when he got here.

There are levels of everything. He has sunk to a new level of badness.

[CROBulls]

Vuc was fool’s gold. I don’t think he fell off a cliff. We just bought high on junk. If anything, his defense is better than when he got here.

Vuc was at some point very good, but he was exactly that. Just good, not great. His Magic teams were bad, but they catered to him with roster construction. Main issue is exactly that, all our pieces overall dont fit well. Zach/DeRozan/Vuc. Zach is not good defender, so Vuc and Lavine are just not good combo to build together on defense. Then you add DeRozan in mix on offense and kills with spacing any potential dynamic between Vuc and Lavine. Then DeRozan and Vuc occupy same space offense. Neither can really spread floor even with Lavine as off ball 3 point threat .

It's just messy roster. But it's result of AKME just trying make more veteran talented roster immediatly with a trade for Vuc and sign best player availabe in FA in DeRozan. But in overall big picture I do agree. Yes, Vuc was fool's gold.