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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#941 » by _txchilibowl_ » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:16 am

Dan Z wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
What kind of growth are you talking about? Yes, Coby and Ayo have improved. PW has been up and down and is currently hurt.

DDR? Looks like he's regressed a little bit. Vucevic? His three point shooting has fallen off a cliff.

Zach LaVine? He wants out and is currently not playing (out for the year).

If the team ends the year similar to last season (which is a possibility) then that means back-to-back losing seasons. Next year the Bulls will most likely be in a worse situation than they were going into 2024. Should we go for a three peat of bad seasons?



You said it ...growth from the young guys. I think that gets severely hampered if you toss the season down the drain.


Or perhaps the young players will get more opportunities to play and learn from it? At some point that's important.

For example, many people on this board have been pushing for Coby White to get the ball at the end of games instead of DDR. Is that a good idea? I'm not sure, but developing Coby is more important right now that DDR.



I don't necessarily disagree with you philosophically. But what we're doing is working. Coby is a totally new player this year. How much of that is because of the veteran mentorship he's been receiving? I don't know but I don't want to rock the boat.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#942 » by SfBull » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:16 am

jnrjr79 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:That is NOT how the Reinsdorfs operate lol. When AKME were signed that came with a minimum 10 year cushion of job security.

I know people joke about this. But GarPax had a very good run to start their tenure. Legitimate built up goodwill.

AK has nothing.


Umm, you seem to be forgetting that they went 14-9 with Pat Bev.

And what?Did they even make the playoffs?
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#943 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:20 am

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:

I feel completely differently. I think making the playoffs is the very best thing this organization can do. Now and for the future.


Why? For perception? Sure as Hell not for acquisition of talent. No stars are coming here because we keep making the play-in with a bunch of guys past their prime.



Being successful isn't something that just happens. You have to create success from the top down. It's the same in any business. You create and nurture an environment that fosters success and that filters down to every employee/player.

Let me ask you...why do you think a team like the Miami Heat can annually take a bunch of undrafted players and turn them into quality roleplayers and key contributors? Is it that they're just smarter than every other team in the league? Is it that they're scouting department is just so much better?

Or is it because they've created something that every player understands the minute they walk through the door? They completely buy-in because they trust the people above them. That trust is earned by through consistency in hard work and a dedication to excellence.

You create that and you've created something that lasts beyond roster constructions. That kind of culture is generational.


So you want to follow the exception to rule? Also Miami is a star destination so they always have a built in advantage over us. Butler wanted to go there. As did Lebron. Lillard wanted to go there. That’s why they can be mediocre and bide their until they get another star. Bulls don’t have that appeal and unfortunately it seems like we never will.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#944 » by jnrjr79 » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:21 am

SfBull wrote:
jnrjr79 wrote:
TheSuzerain wrote:I know people joke about this. But GarPax had a very good run to start their tenure. Legitimate built up goodwill.

AK has nothing.


Umm, you seem to be forgetting that they went 14-9 with Pat Bev.

And what?Did they even make the playoffs?


Sorry - I guess I needed green font. Was joking.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#945 » by SfBull » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:21 am

Stratmaster wrote:
SfBull wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:I don't think people realize that for the last 2 months, the Bulls have been a top 10 NBA team.

Do I think they are a conference title contender? No. But could they give a team hell in a first round playoff series? Sure.

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And you're happy with that?
For this season? I would be thrilled. What would have made them a contender? Do you seriously think there was a move to be made that would have made the Bulls contenders this season?

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Off course not.But I'd be happy with a trade bringing us a promising player like Kuminga even if giving up on Caruso.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#946 » by jnrjr79 » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:22 am

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:

You said it ...growth from the young guys. I think that gets severely hampered if you toss the season down the drain.


Or perhaps the young players will get more opportunities to play and learn from it? At some point that's important.

For example, many people on this board have been pushing for Coby White to get the ball at the end of games instead of DDR. Is that a good idea? I'm not sure, but developing Coby is more important right now that DDR.



I don't necessarily disagree with you philosophically. But what we're doing is working. Coby is a totally new player this year. How much of that is because of the veteran mentorship he's been receiving? I don't know but I don't want to rock the boat.


It would seem the opportunity for Coby to break out is basically because of the absence of one of the veteran mainstays - Zach LaVine, giving Coby more minutes, shot attempts, etc.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#947 » by Dan Z » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:23 am

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:

You said it ...growth from the young guys. I think that gets severely hampered if you toss the season down the drain.


Or perhaps the young players will get more opportunities to play and learn from it? At some point that's important.

For example, many people on this board have been pushing for Coby White to get the ball at the end of games instead of DDR. Is that a good idea? I'm not sure, but developing Coby is more important right now that DDR.



I don't necessarily disagree with you philosophically. But what we're doing is working. Coby is a totally new player this year. How much of that is because of the veteran mentorship he's been receiving? I don't know but I don't want to rock the boat.


The team needs more young talent than just Coby White (who isn't a #1 superstar talent, even though he's a good player).

If they moved in a new direction how do you know he'd regress? It's possible that he continues developing and learns how to deal with new situations (see the DDR example I said above).
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#948 » by Dresden » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:24 am

I haven't been following the Bulls that much this year or last because they've been so bland, but are they a better team without Zach Lavine and Pat Williams? They seem to play better when those guys are out.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#949 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:24 am

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:

I think they would trade every veteran they could in that scenario. Keep Coby and Pat and the other young guys. Total rebuild.

I think that's a totally different scenario than where the team is at right now. This team is competitive. Our young guys are developing. Why would they pull the plug on this now? And for what? Some meaningless, non-impactful draft picks?

I'm glad they're staying the course for now. It's the best option in this moment.


Why is it the best option now and when it not be the best option. When DeRazon and Vuc completely fall apart in a couple of years. What will we have accomplished by then? We already know this core isn’t good enough to win a playoffs. Not even good enough to avoid the play-in.



I've said it a thousand times today. I want the culture of this franchise to change. Winning does that. I'd be advocating for them to make the play-in next year as well. If our roster ages out so be it. What will we have lost? Apparently not much by the rumored trade offers we received.

I believe trying to win now is more important than trying to win later. I think winning now begets winning later. It's not that complicated. It just takes patience. And an unwillingness to be a bottom feeder team.


We will never win without elite talent. That’s how this league works. This isn’t the NFL where you can build great teams by drafting smart. Either you have stars or you don’t.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#950 » by SfBull » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:28 am

FriedRise wrote:
GoBlue72391 wrote:
Infinity2152 wrote:All these fans in here calling this a mediocre team, but if this team was fully healthy, Coby's going back to the bench. That's how talented Ball, Lavine, and Derozan are. And that team is winning a lot of games, with White, Caruso, Ayo, Craig, Carter, Drummond off the bench. Probably a 3 or 4 seed at least.

This team is not mediocre in terms of talent.

:D

Today has been an absolute record day for outlandish takes.


Coby would still start. Lonzo would play PF.

Coby / Caruso / DeMar / Lonzo / Vooch

Goddamn that team would’ve been so fun to watch.

I got the sarcasm.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#951 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:31 am

Dresden wrote:I haven't been following the Bulls that much this year or last because they've been so bland, but are they a better team without Zach Lavine and Pat Williams? They seem to play better when those guys are out.


I would say the mid 3 is just failed experiment. I think either subtracting either on of the 3 changes the dynamics. I would rather a healthy Zach over keeping Vuc and DeMar, but obviously that isn’t happening. We are definitely not better without Williams. Period. He is 3 and D style and size is sorely missed. Craig being back has helped fill that role a bit, not replaced it.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#952 » by 2weekswithpay » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:32 am

Dresden wrote:I haven't been following the Bulls that much this year or last because they've been so bland, but are they a better team without Zach Lavine and Pat Williams? They seem to play better when those guys are out.


They aren't better without both but there isn't a noticeable difference in performance when only one is out.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#953 » by SfBull » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:35 am

ScrantonBulls wrote:My wish as a fan is for the Bulls to win a championship. It's obvious that won't happen under AK. The only way I see changes happening is if the rest of the season is a disaster. I'm hoping the Bulls finish poorly so AK gets fired. It sucks to root for losses, but ultimately that is the best thing for this organization.

It means rooting against the Bulls.I' m not doing that ,I just gave up on watching games , lost the fun on rooting for them.Just looking for stats on the following day .
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#954 » by Muzbar » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:38 am

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Muzbar wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:

Could we have? I don't know how you know that. You're assuming that there are deals that would have made this team better that we passed up on. AKME said the exact opposite of that. He's clearly wanting to win now. If he could improve the chances of that happening why wouldn't he? Because there wasn't any.

We've seen countless examples of young players being given too much responsibility too soon. It stunts their development and leads to bad habits. It's not a hard and fast rule so I won't say that it definitely would have happened. I just would not risk it for the minimal gain that of some lowly draft picks.

Could means there was a possibility, yes. I never said I knew they turned down such a deal, however there were reports that the Bulls turned down multiple offers for Caruso, they may have been really good deals but AK wanted more!

I seriously doubt that 3 deadlines in a row their were no deals they could have made to improve this team, even if slightly. You're telling me he couldn't make a deal that helps improve the teams lack of front court depth?

You're putting words into my mouth once again, no surprise here. I never said that there were deals to make this team better, but deals where the Bulls gain some future assets without completely gutting the team.

If AK had made atleast 1 move that fills the teams holes in the frontcourt you'd have less people here complaining, but fact of the matter is that he's sat on his hands the last 3 deadlines now and done nothing.

Maybe signing Robin Lopez well help elevate this team to a playoff berth/championship contention this season?



If I put words in your mouth my apologies. That wasn't my intent.

I guess I'm confused as to what fans like yourself want. The criticism that he didn't add anybody to the team seems incongruent with wanting to reset the roster. You're telling me you would have been happy if AK invested more assets into this version of the team?

I don't see how fans can simultaneously want to reboot and improve the team at the same time.

If I had to guess, my thinking is that AKME know this roster needs to be reset. He's not going to publicly come out and say that of course. That would only alienate the players on the team and devalue the ones he would like to trade. And he's not going to take a bad deal just to prove that he knows it needs to be reset. So for now we try to win as much as possible. I don't think it's that outlandish of an idea considering they're probably weren't any better options.

What do I want? Action. This team is treadmilling and has been for a couple of years. Ultimately I rather a rebuild, but I know the FO doesn't want to do that. So if you're going to continue the course, do something to help your chances not matter how small.

Fans like me know this FO isn't going to tear it down but at least do something to fill the holes, there's more transaction periods than just the offseason.

Ultimately what we (or at least I) want is a team that's competing for a top 4 to 5 seed with the potential for growth to go further. Constant play-in exits and 1st round exits aren't my cup of tea.

What is it you want?
Go Bulls... I guess!? Right!?
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#955 » by Dan Z » Fri Feb 9, 2024 2:58 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
Why is it the best option now and when it not be the best option. When DeRazon and Vuc completely fall apart in a couple of years. What will we have accomplished by then? We already know this core isn’t good enough to win a playoffs. Not even good enough to avoid the play-in.



I've said it a thousand times today. I want the culture of this franchise to change. Winning does that. I'd be advocating for them to make the play-in next year as well. If our roster ages out so be it. What will we have lost? Apparently not much by the rumored trade offers we received.

I believe trying to win now is more important than trying to win later. I think winning now begets winning later. It's not that complicated. It just takes patience. And an unwillingness to be a bottom feeder team.


We will never win without elite talent. That’s how this league works. This isn’t the NFL where you can build great teams by drafting smart. Either you have stars or you don’t.


Plus, the best way to find a top talent is through the draft.

No star player is demanding to go to Chicago.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#956 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:07 am

Dan Z wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:

I've said it a thousand times today. I want the culture of this franchise to change. Winning does that. I'd be advocating for them to make the play-in next year as well. If our roster ages out so be it. What will we have lost? Apparently not much by the rumored trade offers we received.

I believe trying to win now is more important than trying to win later. I think winning now begets winning later. It's not that complicated. It just takes patience. And an unwillingness to be a bottom feeder team.


We will never win without elite talent. That’s how this league works. This isn’t the NFL where you can build great teams by drafting smart. Either you have stars or you don’t.


Plus, the best way to find a top talent is through the draft.

No star player is demanding to go to Chicago.


Yeah and statistically VERY high in the draft.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#957 » by _txchilibowl_ » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:11 am

Muzbar wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Muzbar wrote:Could means there was a possibility, yes. I never said I knew they turned down such a deal, however there were reports that the Bulls turned down multiple offers for Caruso, they may have been really good deals but AK wanted more!

I seriously doubt that 3 deadlines in a row their were no deals they could have made to improve this team, even if slightly. You're telling me he couldn't make a deal that helps improve the teams lack of front court depth?

You're putting words into my mouth once again, no surprise here. I never said that there were deals to make this team better, but deals where the Bulls gain some future assets without completely gutting the team.

If AK had made atleast 1 move that fills the teams holes in the frontcourt you'd have less people here complaining, but fact of the matter is that he's sat on his hands the last 3 deadlines now and done nothing.

Maybe signing Robin Lopez well help elevate this team to a playoff berth/championship contention this season?



If I put words in your mouth my apologies. That wasn't my intent.

I guess I'm confused as to what fans like yourself want. The criticism that he didn't add anybody to the team seems incongruent with wanting to reset the roster. You're telling me you would have been happy if AK invested more assets into this version of the team?

I don't see how fans can simultaneously want to reboot and improve the team at the same time.

If I had to guess, my thinking is that AKME know this roster needs to be reset. He's not going to publicly come out and say that of course. That would only alienate the players on the team and devalue the ones he would like to trade. And he's not going to take a bad deal just to prove that he knows it needs to be reset. So for now we try to win as much as possible. I don't think it's that outlandish of an idea considering they're probably weren't any better options.

What do I want? Action. This team is treadmilling and has been for a couple of years. Ultimately I rather a rebuild, but I know the FO doesn't want to do that. So if you're going to continue the course, do something to help your chances not matter how small.

Fans like me know this FO isn't going to tear it down but at least do something to fill the holes, there's more transaction periods than just the offseason.

Ultimately what we (or at least I) want is a team that's competing for a top 4 to 5 seed with the potential for growth to go further. Constant play-in exits and 1st round exits aren't my cup of tea.

What is it you want?


Because of all the unknown variables I think it would be easier for me to tell you what I don't want.

- I don't want action for actions sake. If we didn't make a trade my assumption is it's because there wasn't a deal that was beneficial.

- I don't want to reboot. Not now. I don't see the point with Lonzo and Zach's contracts on the books. I'd rather ride it out until they can provide value by improving their play and/or as a large expiring contract. In the meantime, we try to win as much as possible while rehabbing the franchises league wide reputation.

- If and when we reboot I don't want to start completely over. Replenish is the word I would use. Under no circumstance do I want to bottom out. Never again.

- I don't want to be a play-in team forever...but can handle it until better opportunities come along. If I believe that AKME are at least adequate at their jobs, which I do, then I don't believe those opportunities were available now or in the recent past. It's frustrating but it is what it is. The Bulls have limited assets because of the initial strategy management had. Some of that is because of injuries, some of it because of questionable trades....in the end they took their shot and the results have been disjointed. They succeeded in pulling the team out of its doldrums but in the process tied its hands for the immediate future. Again, frustrating but I can understand it.

To put it succinctly, I have bigger organizational goals then this season. Or next even. I want lasting change that can be sustainable over multiple roster iterations. I think that's achievable but not if we keep restarting every 3 to 5 years.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#958 » by step » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:12 am

Dan Z wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
League Circles wrote:I haven't reviewed the numbers but I expect they may stretch-waive Ball to avoid the tax. Also I don't expect Demar to make any more than he does now, nor do I expect Patrick to make more than about 14 mil/year at the most, maybe only MLE money or the QO, whatever that is. I think they may work a trade with Patrick as well. Also I'm not so sure we won't pay the tax. If we win at least two real playoff games in the first round against a top 4 team in the east, I think they'll consider paying tax.


Pat is getting more than $14 million. There are lots of bad teams with cap space. All it takes is one.


How much do you think he'll get?

I'm wondering what his value will be on his next deal. Maybe he improves and it's steal? Unlikely, but possible. Or maybe he stays the same and his new contract is....well...maybe just ok? Or on the bad side? Either way keeping him is the right move right now IMO.

Also just jumping in ... the MLE next year is $12,859,000 for context.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#959 » by _txchilibowl_ » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:15 am

Dan Z wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:

I've said it a thousand times today. I want the culture of this franchise to change. Winning does that. I'd be advocating for them to make the play-in next year as well. If our roster ages out so be it. What will we have lost? Apparently not much by the rumored trade offers we received.

I believe trying to win now is more important than trying to win later. I think winning now begets winning later. It's not that complicated. It just takes patience. And an unwillingness to be a bottom feeder team.


We will never win without elite talent. That’s how this league works. This isn’t the NFL where you can build great teams by drafting smart. Either you have stars or you don’t.


Plus, the best way to find a top talent is through the draft.

No star player is demanding to go to Chicago.



We've drafted three elite talents in 40 years. The odds on that aren't very good either.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#960 » by Dan Z » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:16 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
We will never win without elite talent. That’s how this league works. This isn’t the NFL where you can build great teams by drafting smart. Either you have stars or you don’t.


Plus, the best way to find a top talent is through the draft.

No star player is demanding to go to Chicago.


Yeah and statistically VERY high in the draft.


The Bulls this year are fighting for the play-in so most likely the 2024 pick won't be a high one.

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