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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#961 » by Dan Z » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:24 am

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
We will never win without elite talent. That’s how this league works. This isn’t the NFL where you can build great teams by drafting smart. Either you have stars or you don’t.


Plus, the best way to find a top talent is through the draft.

No star player is demanding to go to Chicago.



We've drafted three elite talents in 40 years. The odds on that aren't very good either.


If you think the draft is not a good way to find top talent, and no star is going to ask to be traded here, then how do you expect the Bulls to get a player like that?

Yes, the Bulls haven't drafted many elite players in franchise history (most teams haven't), but they have drafted very good players such as Butler, Markkanen, Noah, Deng, etc.

The Noah/Deng teams didn't win a championships, but they made the playoffs and competed. I'd be okay with that if the current Bulls were similar.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#962 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:25 am

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
We will never win without elite talent. That’s how this league works. This isn’t the NFL where you can build great teams by drafting smart. Either you have stars or you don’t.


Plus, the best way to find a top talent is through the draft.

No star player is demanding to go to Chicago.



We've drafted three elite talents in 40 years. The odds on that aren't very good either.


So you give up is what you’re saying? Chances of drafting one are the only chance we have.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#963 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:26 am

Dan Z wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
Plus, the best way to find a top talent is through the draft.

No star player is demanding to go to Chicago.



We've drafted three elite talents in 40 years. The odds on that aren't very good either.


If you think the draft is not a good way to find top talent, and no star is going to ask to be traded here, then how do you expect the Bulls to get a player like that?

Yes, the Bulls haven't drafted many elite players in franchise history (most teams haven't), but they have drafted very good players such as Butler, Markkanen, Noah, Deng, etc.

The Noah/Deng teams didn't win a championships, but they made the playoffs and competed. I'd be okay with that if the current Bulls were similar.


Yeah being happy with 50+ win team is lot different than being happy with a 40 win team.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#964 » by burlydee » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:27 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
Plus, the best way to find a top talent is through the draft.

No star player is demanding to go to Chicago.



We've drafted three elite talents in 40 years. The odds on that aren't very good either.


So you give is what you’re saying? Chances of drafting one are the only chance we have.


Yeah all the people patting the front office on the back haven't explained how staying the course leads to anything but continued mediocrity.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#965 » by _txchilibowl_ » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:28 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
Plus, the best way to find a top talent is through the draft.

No star player is demanding to go to Chicago.



We've drafted three elite talents in 40 years. The odds on that aren't very good either.


So you give up is what you’re saying? Chances of drafting one are the only chance we have.



If you've read any of my posts today I clearly disagree with that notion.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#966 » by NecessaryEvil » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:32 am

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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#967 » by Dan Z » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:32 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:

We've drafted three elite talents in 40 years. The odds on that aren't very good either.


If you think the draft is not a good way to find top talent, and no star is going to ask to be traded here, then how do you expect the Bulls to get a player like that?

Yes, the Bulls haven't drafted many elite players in franchise history (most teams haven't), but they have drafted very good players such as Butler, Markkanen, Noah, Deng, etc.

The Noah/Deng teams didn't win a championships, but they made the playoffs and competed. I'd be okay with that if the current Bulls were similar.


Yeah being happy with 50+ win team is lot different than being happy with a 40 win team.


The current team might not even get to 40 wins. Right now they're currently 25-27. Thirty more games to go. They need to play .500 or better to reach 40. It's possible.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#968 » by _txchilibowl_ » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:33 am

Dan Z wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
If you think the draft is not a good way to find top talent, and no star is going to ask to be traded here, then how do you expect the Bulls to get a player like that?

Yes, the Bulls haven't drafted many elite players in franchise history (most teams haven't), but they have drafted very good players such as Butler, Markkanen, Noah, Deng, etc.

The Noah/Deng teams didn't win a championships, but they made the playoffs and competed. I'd be okay with that if the current Bulls were similar.


Yeah being happy with 50+ win team is lot different than being happy with a 40 win team.


The current team might not even get to 40 wins. Right now they're currently 25-27. Thirty more games to go. They need to play .500 or better to reach 40. It's possible.



They've been playing a lot better than that for quite a stretch now. I think the odds are pretty good they hit 40.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#969 » by Dan Z » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:36 am

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
Yeah being happy with 50+ win team is lot different than being happy with a 40 win team.


The current team might not even get to 40 wins. Right now they're currently 25-27. Thirty more games to go. They need to play .500 or better to reach 40. It's possible.



They've been playing a lot better than that for quite a stretch now. I think the odds are pretty good they hit 40.


The schedule going forward is suppose to be difficult, but I did say it's possible.

I also don't think 40 wins is all that exciting. Last year the Bulls were 40-42 and finished in 10th place.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#970 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:39 am

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:

We've drafted three elite talents in 40 years. The odds on that aren't very good either.


So you give up is what you’re saying? Chances of drafting one are the only chance we have.



If you've read any of my posts today I clearly disagree with that notion.


You haven’t explained how continuing to be mediocre will lead to greater success. We aren’t the Miami Heat and we never will be. I already explained how what works for them won’t work for us.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#971 » by WindyCityBorn » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:40 am

Wish someone would organize a Fire AKME billboard.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#972 » by _txchilibowl_ » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:47 am

WindyCityBorn wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
So you give up is what you’re saying? Chances of drafting one are the only chance we have.



If you've read any of my posts today I clearly disagree with that notion.


You haven’t explained how continuing to be mediocre will lead to greater success. We aren’t the Miami Heat and we never will be. I already explained how what works for them won’t work for us.



I disagree. Weather and location are a factor but nobody is rushing to play for the Orlando Magic. The Heat continue to succeed because of their organizational philosiphophies. I believe that can be replicated. That is how we turn this around.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#973 » by Muzbar » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:50 am

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Muzbar wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:

If I put words in your mouth my apologies. That wasn't my intent.

I guess I'm confused as to what fans like yourself want. The criticism that he didn't add anybody to the team seems incongruent with wanting to reset the roster. You're telling me you would have been happy if AK invested more assets into this version of the team?

I don't see how fans can simultaneously want to reboot and improve the team at the same time.

If I had to guess, my thinking is that AKME know this roster needs to be reset. He's not going to publicly come out and say that of course. That would only alienate the players on the team and devalue the ones he would like to trade. And he's not going to take a bad deal just to prove that he knows it needs to be reset. So for now we try to win as much as possible. I don't think it's that outlandish of an idea considering they're probably weren't any better options.

What do I want? Action. This team is treadmilling and has been for a couple of years. Ultimately I rather a rebuild, but I know the FO doesn't want to do that. So if you're going to continue the course, do something to help your chances not matter how small.

Fans like me know this FO isn't going to tear it down but at least do something to fill the holes, there's more transaction periods than just the offseason.

Ultimately what we (or at least I) want is a team that's competing for a top 4 to 5 seed with the potential for growth to go further. Constant play-in exits and 1st round exits aren't my cup of tea.

What is it you want?


Because of all the unknown variables I think it would be easier for me to tell you what I don't want.

- I don't want action for actions sake. If we didn't make a trade my assumption is it's because there wasn't a deal that was beneficial.

- I don't want to reboot. Not now. I don't see the point with Lonzo and Zach's contracts on the books. I'd rather ride it out until they can provide value by improving their play and/or as a large expiring contract. In the meantime, we try to win as much as possible while rehabbing the franchises league wide reputation.

- If and when we reboot I don't want to start completely over. Replenish is the word I would use. Under no circumstance do I want to bottom out. Never again.

- I don't want to be a play-in team forever...but can handle it until better opportunities come along. If I believe that AKME are at least adequate at their jobs, which I do, then I don't believe those opportunities were available now or in the recent past. It's frustrating but it is what it is. The Bulls have limited assets because of the initial strategy management had. Some of that is because of injuries, some of it because of questionable trades....in the end they took their shot and the results have been disjointed. They succeeded in pulling the team out of its doldrums but in the process tied its hands for the immediate future. Again, frustrating but I can understand it.

To put it succinctly, I have bigger organizational goals then this season. Or next even. I want lasting change that can be sustainable over multiple roster iterations. I think that's achievable but not if we keep restarting every 3 to 5 years.

We seem to want the same thing (long term sustainability/competitiveness) but we just want different paths in order to get there.

I get sitting on your hands and doing nothing if your core is fairly young and there's potential for growth or if your team is hovering around 4th-6th seeds but not making some sort of move to help the team in the slightest whilst your sitting around 9th and 10th is just maddening to me.

I'm not advocating for a complete tear down to the studs, keep Coby, Ayo, Pat and Phillips, give them minutes around surround them with hardy and supportive vets and let them grow.

If you want to get better in the future you need assets, whether that but drafting players or by using picks (wisely) to acquire other pieces to improve the team.
Go Bulls... I guess!? Right!?
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#974 » by Dan Z » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:57 am

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:

If you've read any of my posts today I clearly disagree with that notion.


You haven’t explained how continuing to be mediocre will lead to greater success. We aren’t the Miami Heat and we never will be. I already explained how what works for them won’t work for us.



I disagree. Weather and location are a factor but nobody is rushing to play for the Orlando Magic. The Heat continue to succeed because of their organizational philosiphophies. I believe that can be replicated. That is how we turn this around.


Orlando and Miami are two different places. Players aren't demanding to go to Orlando so they can go to DisneyWorld, but they will demand to go to Miami be be near the beaches and nightlife.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#975 » by Stratmaster » Fri Feb 9, 2024 3:58 am

Dan Z wrote:I have a question for the board:

If Coby didn't improve and the Bulls record was similar to the Hornets (10-40) would AKME move in a new direction? Or would they decide not to for whatever reason?
Even if Coby didn't improve the Bulls would have never been 10-40. But sure. In that unrealistic scenario they would have moved on.

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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#976 » by _txchilibowl_ » Fri Feb 9, 2024 4:03 am

Dan Z wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:
WindyCityBorn wrote:
You haven’t explained how continuing to be mediocre will lead to greater success. We aren’t the Miami Heat and we never will be. I already explained how what works for them won’t work for us.



I disagree. Weather and location are a factor but nobody is rushing to play for the Orlando Magic. The Heat continue to succeed because of their organizational philosiphophies. I believe that can be replicated. That is how we turn this around.


Orlando and Miami are two different places. Players aren't demanding to go to Orlando so they can go to DisneyWorld, but they will demand to go to Miami be be near the beaches and nightlife.



Fair enough. I think Chicago has a lot to offer an athlete. With the right organization I think plenty of players would want to play there.
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#977 » by Stratmaster » Fri Feb 9, 2024 4:04 am

Muzbar wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
Muzbar wrote:Ok, first of all there was only 2 guarantees. Fighting for a play-in spot and then losing if they do make it and the if by some miracle they do make the playoffs they'll get bounced first round.

If anything I made 2 guarantees, not guarantees with options.

The 2 are intertwined into one another, it's not like I said I guarantee the team misses the playoffs, unless they make it and then they'll go to the ECFs.

Are you saying the guarantees I made are unlikely?
You just mentioned 3 things again my friend. And it isn't a guarantee if you say "I guarantee A... but if not I guarantee B". It is impossible for both a and b to happen. You can't guarantee both. Which one are you guaranteeing?

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Please tell me these 3 things, so I can understand why you are confused.

If a player has a guaranteed contract with bonuses tied into if they reach a certain goal and they reach that goal, are they guaranteed to get both the contract they are already owed plus their bonus?

It's 2 separate guarantees.

I'll dumb it down, I guarantee that IF the Bulls make the playoffs (whether that be by making the play-in and winning or by nabbing the 6th seed), they won't make the 2nd round.

Is that better?
Nice try lol. You sure are dumbing it down. So let me ask you the question point blank.

Are you guaranteeing the Bulls will miss the play-in?

Are you guaranteeing that if they make the play-in, they will miss the playoffs?

Are you guaranteeing that if they make the playoffs they will get blown out?

You can only guarantee one of the 3. Because if any one of those 3 are true, the other 2 can't be.

Better yet, quit while you are behind.

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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#978 » by Stratmaster » Fri Feb 9, 2024 4:04 am

Muzbar wrote:
Stratmaster wrote:
Muzbar wrote:Ok, first of all there was only 2 guarantees. Fighting for a play-in spot and then losing if they do make it and the if by some miracle they do make the playoffs they'll get bounced first round.

If anything I made 2 guarantees, not guarantees with options.

The 2 are intertwined into one another, it's not like I said I guarantee the team misses the playoffs, unless they make it and then they'll go to the ECFs.

Are you saying the guarantees I made are unlikely?
You just mentioned 3 things again my friend. And it isn't a guarantee if you say "I guarantee A... but if not I guarantee B". It is impossible for both a and b to happen. You can't guarantee both. Which one are you guaranteeing?

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Please tell me these 3 things, so I can understand why you are confused.

If a player has a guaranteed contract with bonuses tied into if they reach a certain goal and they reach that goal, are they guaranteed to get both the contract they are already owed plus their bonus?

It's 2 separate guarantees.

I'll dumb it down, I guarantee that IF the Bulls make the playoffs (whether that be by making the play-in and winning or by nabbing the 6th seed), they won't make the 2nd round.

Is that better?
Oh... as far as your goalposts moving. No ****.

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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#979 » by Dan Z » Fri Feb 9, 2024 4:05 am

Stratmaster wrote:
Dan Z wrote:I have a question for the board:

If Coby didn't improve and the Bulls record was similar to the Hornets (10-40) would AKME move in a new direction? Or would they decide not to for whatever reason?
Even if Coby didn't improve the Bulls would have never been 10-40. But sure. In that unrealistic scenario they would have moved on.

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Unrealistic? Coby has increased his scoring by 10 points a game and has become one of the best players on the team (if not the best).

If he doesn't improve and is back to scoring 9.7 a game, and Zach is out for the season, what do you think their record would be?
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Re: Bulls Trade Rumors Only 

Post#980 » by Dan Z » Fri Feb 9, 2024 4:06 am

_txchilibowl_ wrote:
Dan Z wrote:
_txchilibowl_ wrote:

I disagree. Weather and location are a factor but nobody is rushing to play for the Orlando Magic. The Heat continue to succeed because of their organizational philosiphophies. I believe that can be replicated. That is how we turn this around.


Orlando and Miami are two different places. Players aren't demanding to go to Orlando so they can go to DisneyWorld, but they will demand to go to Miami be be near the beaches and nightlife.



Fair enough. I think Chicago has a lot to offer an athlete. With the right organization I think plenty of players would want to play there.


I like Chicago and think it's underrated. But I think many people just see the surface and look at it as too cold to live here.

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