Should Coby Keep Taking So Many Charges?

[Stratmaster]

I made a post in the game thread about this. It was responded to, but the thread was locked. Seeing how important Coby is to the team, and with him looking like he has a long term future here as a major starter, I think this really needs to be discussed.

My concern is that Coby will end up like Caruso. Limited minutes, and limited games, due to nagging injuries. The poster who disagreed did so based on "significant" injuries in players careers. That really isn't my concern. You don't usually see season ending significant injuries from taking charges. You see accumulating bumps and bruises and nagging injuries that limit playing time and games played. I'm also not sure how "significant" was defined.

The other poster listed the top 12 players in the league in taking charges. Jalen Brunson, Draymond, Mo Wagner, Anfernee Simons, Tim Hardaway JR, Podziemski, Jaylin Williams, Kyle Lowry, Herb Jones, Plumlee, Caruso, Coby, claiming only 2 had any "significant" (again, not defined so not sure how to address it) injuries

I decided to dig in, as there is a lot that goes into this question. Player size, usage, role, minutes etc. here is what I found:

Coby and Caruso are about the same size (listed as 6'5" and around 190'). At 6'4" and 190 myself, and having been called skinny all my life, they aren't big stocky guys. Of the other 10 players listed, only 3 of them are under 205'. Kyle Lowery, who is 196 (still heavier) but is also 5" shorter. Kyle is a pretty stocky guy. Anfernee Simons 6'3", 181' is the closest to their build, has significant injury history, and has played in only 3 of 21 games this season. Jalen Brunson who is also 190', but is 3" shorter. again, a good bit more built than White or Caruso. 4 of the players on the list are 230' or heavier.

Next I looked at games played. The 11 players other than Coby White who are on the list have only played in 75% of their team's games this season (178 games played, 60 games missed).

Then, minutes played. The players on the list average 25 mpg. Only 5.5 of the other 11 were starters (Caruso is the .5 as he has started not quite half the games he has played). So half of these players are role-playing non-starters. By all means...take those charges bench guys!

I considered style of play. I can't claim to have observed all those other player's approach to taking charges. I know that Coby tends to throw his body in front of players, even at the last second, just in time to take the charge. He often goes flying across the court, and usually gets up grimacing and holding some body part. Look at Demar as the counter to this. When he takes charges he is usually standing stationary, ready for the impact, takes the bump without getting run over, and slides backwards on his rump properly to safely absorb the shock. Heck, half the time he is purposely adding to the drama (OK, flopping) to get the foul call.

So, in my opinion, Coby needs to stop taking a high percentage of the charges he is taking. Sure, take the ones you are prepared for and can absorb safely, but don't be stupid about it. Because the player on the list he is built most like, and plays most like(from taking a charge standpoint) is Alex Caruso, and we have seen what happens with him. We saw it again last night when he tried to jump in front of a driving player to take a charge, and tripped over a fellow Bull.

What do you think?

[League Circles]

I think he should definitely keep taking them. They are huge moves that help win games. I'm OK with the risk. Maybe if he got injured multiple times from them then I'd want him to scale it back.

[RagingBull316]

I think this is a stupid question. Of course he should continue taking charges and playing hard, that's one of the major reasons we are winning. Do you want him to just move out of the way and let the opposing team score. As Stacey says if you're scared go buy a dog. You can't worry about everyone getting hurt all the time, he could just as easily come down on someones foot going to take a layup or a shot, or tear his ACL jumping like Rose did. Do you want him to stop shooting and jumping as well to play it safe? Ridiculous question IMO.

[DuckIII]

Strat’s stated premise is that Coby is “being stupid” by taking charges. Here is my response he’s referring to. And with regard to whether it should just be role players taking charges, if you look at the NBA leaders after the top 12 (I stopped there because Coby and Caruso were 11th and 12th) on the first page of leaders you will see many role players but you will also see LeBron, Kawhi, Wemby, Trae Young and Jrue.

Here’s my post in full:

To the extent anyone wanted any data regarding the notion that taking charges is "stupid" because you might get a boo-boo:

Here are the players leading in the league in taking charges, through Caruso and Coby, in order:

Jalen Brunson - no significant injury history
Draymond Green - 12 year veteran, 2 years missing real time
Mo Wagner - could not assess his injury history because of how many games missed due to DNP stuff, was not always in rotation
Anfernee Simons - has significant injury history
Tim Hardaway, JR. - no significant injury history
Brandin Podziemski - no significant injury history, but a rookie so should be disregarded
Jaylin Williams - had a significant injury, but in his second year so should be disregarded
Kyle Lowery - 17 year vet, no significant injury history until he was old
Herb Jones - no significant injury history
Mason Plumlee - 10 year vet, virtually no injury history at all
Caruso - has significant injury history
Coby - no significant injury history

That's 12 guys. Two should be disregarded based on sample size, and can't tell with Mo Wagner from the data I looked at. So that brings us down to 9. 7 of those 9 have no significant injury history, two do and one of them is Caruso. The other is Simons, but I'm not sure if his injuries were in any way connected to drawing charges or not.

By contrast, Zach Lavine: 1 charge drawn in career, significant injury history.

Keep being a team-oriented defender and keep taking charges, Coby.

P.S. My guess is more players get injured going up for blocks or rebounds than pretty much anything else. so maybe players should stop doing those things as well.

[DuckIII]

And good on DDR for taking that charge in the open court last night as well. That’s part of being a team player.

[Stratmaster]

Strat’s stated premise is that Coby is “being stupid” by taking charges. Here is my response he’s referring to. And with regard to whether it should just be role players taking charges, if you look at the NBA leaders after the top 12 (I stopped there because Coby and Caruso were 11th and 12th) on the first page of leaders you will see many role players but you will also see LeBron, Kawhi, Wemby, Trae Young and Jrue.

Here’s my post in full:

To the extent anyone wanted any data regarding the notion that taking charges is "stupid" because you might get a boo-boo:

Here are the players leading in the league in taking charges, through Caruso and Coby, in order:

Jalen Brunson - no significant injury history
Draymond Green - 12 year veteran, 2 years missing real time
Mo Wagner - could not assess his injury history because of how many games missed due to DNP stuff, was not always in rotation
Anfernee Simons - has significant injury history
Tim Hardaway, JR. - no significant injury history
Brandin Podziemski - no significant injury history, but a rookie so should be disregarded
Jaylin Williams - had a significant injury, but in his second year so should be disregarded
Kyle Lowery - 17 year vet, no significant injury history until he was old
Herb Jones - no significant injury history
Mason Plumlee - 10 year vet, virtually no injury history at all
Caruso - has significant injury history
Coby - no significant injury history

That's 12 guys. Two should be disregarded based on sample size, and can't tell with Mo Wagner from the data I looked at. So that brings us down to 9. 7 of those 9 have no significant injury history, two do and one of them is Caruso. The other is Simons, but I'm not sure if his injuries were in any way connected to drawing charges are not.

By contrast, Zach Lavine: 1 charge drawn in career, significant injury history.

Keep being a team-oriented defender and keep taking charges, Coby.

P.S. My guess is more players get injured going up for blocks or rebounds than pretty much anything else. so maybe players should stop doing those things as well.

I think I stated my premise just fine, thanks. I don't need you to state it for me.

What does Lavine have to do with this? Jesus every post on here anymore gets tied back to him. He;s gone, and he was a wuss about charges and never took them. Why would he even be considered?

I didn't say Coby should quit taking charges. I said he should quit taking stupid, dangerous charges.

As far as your examples, you conveniently discount the ones that make your premise look bad, even though one of them is missing games as we speak.

How are you defining "significant" injuries?

The numbers and facts show why those players and Coby have nothing in common. there is a reason that high usage, high scoring players who make up over 25% of your offense are told not to take the kind of charges Coby does. We have the example right here on our own team.

But lets look at the ones you now added:
Lebron 6'9" 250', favored status with the referees. He takes a bump, backs up a step and gets the call.
Kawhi 6'7" 225'
Wemby 7'4" 209 (This one would scare the hell out of me if I were the coach).
Trae Young --- this midget would be the only decent example of a similar build to Coby who isn't dinged up a lot, although he was early in his career.
Jrue: 6'4" 205'

Not to mention that other than Lebron, you have to drop to 19th (Jrue), 22nd (Trae), 32nd (Kawhi), 39th (Wemby) to get your examples. Jrue and Trae have 4 on the whole season. Kawhi and Wemby have 3 each. Coby has 7. So actually, I was being generous in saying 50% of them are role players. Based on those rankings it is more like 70% of the top 40 are role players.

Your post is really, really disingenuous.

Why did you skip over Brandon Miller, Clint Capela, and Kevin Love who were in the top 15? Maybe because 3 of the 4 are between 230 and 260 pounds?

[Stratmaster]

I think this is a stupid question. Of course he should continue taking charges and playing hard, that's one of the major reasons we are winning. Do you want him to just move out of the way and let the opposing team score. As Stacey says if you're scared go buy a dog. You can't worry about everyone getting hurt all the time, he could just as easily come down on someones foot going to take a layup or a shot, or tear his ACL jumping like Rose did. Do you want him to stop shooting and jumping as well to play it safe? Ridiculous question IMO.

Sorry you feel that way. The title should be "so many" charge ,as I think I explained in my post. I will change it. As far as the rest of your post, no one said he shouldn't play hard, no one said he should just move out of the way and let opposing teams score, and obviously there is a different risk level for different activities, as well as a different level of ability to avoid them.

You may get hit by a car tomorrow isn't a reason to walk down the middle of the street.

But hey, thanks for your response.

[Stratmaster]

I think he should definitely keep taking them. They are huge moves that help win games. I'm OK with the risk. Maybe if he got injured multiple times from them then I'd want him to scale it back.

That is reasonable. I wish he would be a little more selective. I have seen that grimace on his face while grasping an elbow, or his chin, or another body part while getting up too many times already. If he keeps it up it is only a matter of time.

[Stratmaster]

And good on DDR for taking that charge in the open court last night as well. That’s part of being a team player.

I didn't see the exact play, but Demar generally isn't reckless, so I expect it is "good on DDR".

[League Circles]

I think he should definitely keep taking them. They are huge moves that help win games. I'm OK with the risk. Maybe if he got injured multiple times from them then I'd want him to scale it back.

That is reasonable. I wish he would be a little more selective. I have seen that grimace on his face while grasping an elbow, or his chin, or another body part while getting up too many times already. If he keeps it up it is only a matter of time.

I really don't know how a player could be selective about charges. It's an instinctual thing that happens in the flash of an eye. IMO, more players should do it more often. To me, it's a lot more about your form and technique and how you absorb the impact and fall back than it is anything about frequency or selectivity. Kobe seems to have excellent technique and form. In my opinion. He falls from a rigid position directly back onto his butt.

[AshyLarrysDiaper]

+ LC and Duck.

I don’t see a correlation between taking charges and missed time. If one emerges in Coby’s case, sure, we should adjust. But there’s no need to limit his impact until then.

[DuckIII]

+ LC and Duck.

I don’t see a correlation between taking charges and missed time. If one emerges in Coby’s case, sure, we should adjust. But there’s no need to limit his impact until then.

You don’t see one because there is not one. Even if you could establish that over the course of years players who draw charges disproportionately miss more time due to injury, which no one has, you would then need to determine the extent to which those injuries were in fact caused by taking charges. Which, also, no one has done.

[Stratmaster]

+ LC and Duck.

I don’t see a correlation between taking charges and missed time. If one emerges in Coby’s case, sure, we should adjust. But there’s no need to limit his impact until then.

You don’t see one because there is not one. Even if you could establish that over the course of years players who draw charges disproportionately miss more time due to injury, which no one has, you would then need to determine the extent to which those injuries were in fact caused by taking charges. Which, also, no one has done.

So you think the guy who gets his body run over 165 times in a season isn't more likely to have an injury that hampers his play or causes him to miss time than the guy who has it happen once a season? Really? Man are you stubborn.

Why do they commend role players who take charges for "giving up their body" for the good of the team? Why would they say that?

Do you also believe a football QB who by design runs the ball 12 times a game isn't more likely to get hurt than one who only runs when he has to?

[Stratmaster]

I think he should definitely keep taking them. They are huge moves that help win games. I'm OK with the risk. Maybe if he got injured multiple times from them then I'd want him to scale it back.

That is reasonable. I wish he would be a little more selective. I have seen that grimace on his face while grasping an elbow, or his chin, or another body part while getting up too many times already. If he keeps it up it is only a matter of time.

I really don't know how a player could be selective about charges. It's an instinctual thing that happens in the flash of an eye. IMO, more players should do it more often. To me, it's a lot more about your form and technique and how you absorb the impact and fall back than it is anything about frequency or selectivity. Kobe seems to have excellent technique and form. In my opinion. He falls from a rigid position directly back onto his butt.

You can definitely be selective about taking a charge. You will see guys step aside often when they realize the guy coming at them full speed is 30 pounds bigger than they are. It's pretty easy physics. "I'm 190 pounds. He is 225. He is coming at me full speed. I am standing still".

I agree though, the most important thing is knowing how to fall, and this can be done when you are in proper position. Coby is about half the time. The other half, not so much because he is jumping in at the last second.

[Stratmaster]

Well, at least Torrey agrees with me:

"Torrey Craig simply chooses not to take a charge.

“You want to know my honest answer? I’ve never taken a charge before in my life. I’d rather block a shot,” he said. “I tried a couple of times overseas, to take charges, and ended up bumping knees with some guys.”

He will dive to the floor for balls, but he ain't taking no charge.

Another fun figure. 25% of the way through the season only 37 players have taken more than 2 charges this season.

[MikeDC]

And good on DDR for taking that charge in the open court last night as well. That’s part of being a team player.

I didn't see the exact play, but Demar generally isn't reckless, so I expect it is "good on DDR".

DDR isn't a good defender, but he's historically a guy who takes great care of himself and he draws plenty of charges:

Last year
Caruso 14
DDR 13
Coby 8
PBev 7

[MikeDC]

Charges are literally the best possible defensive play. It's like a steal, but the opponent also takes a PF.

This argument is just not one I can take seriously. But to the specifics, no, taking a charge is not specifically dangerous if you know what you're doing. If you do martial arts, one of the things you learn and practice is how to take a punch and how to fall down.

Like, I've probably spent hours learning how to fall down. Which sounds pretty damn silly, but it really does make a difference.

In the NBA, guys who take charges a lot, watch them. They know how to fall down right. It's like flopping. They do that too. But you learn how to absorb contact and how to be set right and how to land.

Knowing how to take a charge and being willing to do it makes a bad defender passable and makes good defenders great defenders.

[DuckIII]

Charges are literally the best possible defensive play. It's like a steal, but the opponent also takes a PF.

And it often erases a basket or an offensive rebound put back.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

It's an interesting thought, but I disagree. For one, Coby doesn't seem injury prone in the way Caruso is. More generally, it's a basketball play and I don't think players should be discouraged from making basketball plays that help the team win. Driving to the basket and drawing contact is more likely to cause an injury than standing in the corner, and I don't think you'd encourage an offense that was just guys standing in place and passing the ball around the perimeter. So where do you draw the line?

Perhaps he could take charges in a better way that lessen the impact on his body, maybe it hurts and it affects his offensive capability. But I'd trust the basketball player to make that decision. Regardless, I like your thinking because it seems like Coby is really coming into his own on both ends...dare I say Pat Williams is too? This team is starting to become watchable again, please get Zach off the roster ASAP.

[GoBlue72391]

Hot take: charges shouldn't even be a thing