Around The NBA : 2023-24 Season #2

[Ice Man]

I only watched the highlights of the Spurs-Knicks game, but man ... the degree of difficulty on those shots. Brunson the most of course, but a bunch of other guys were hitting fadeaway/step-back 3s, under pressure.

Shooting today is WAY better than it was 15 years ago. I mean, WAY better.

[MrSparkle]

I disagree, and would point out that you're leaving out Patrick for some reason, but that's besides the point. Neither team has any elite prospects, are thoroughly mediocre, and almost nobody ever reaches their ceiling. The point being that the "full rebuild" strategy ("tanking") is not supposed to work, and usually won't under the CBA rules. The only kinds of bad teams that are really projected to improve a lot are teams with a generational prospect like Wemba. Other than that, all the picks in the world don't really mean much. The Bulls aren't in a good spot at all, but neither is Houston, though they probably have more flexibility.

Sengun is a definitive future/perennial all star, barre some terrible injury (currently just a severe sprain). He’s a high-minute 22yo with a 22 PER.

Patrick’s not resigned at the moment. He’s also got worse numbers (after 4 years) than their 1-2 year prospects.

Furthermore, they’re 3 games above 500 with their best player sidelined, we’re 4 below with our best player active. We just happen to play in the much less competitive conference.

Tell Andre Drummond that putting up a big PER in big minutes for a meh team at a young age makes you a definite perennial all star. Hell, he's still putting up a 22 PER as a healthy 30 year old (and has damn near every year of his career), and he's a backup on a vet min deal. Sengun is a good prospect though and definitely has a chance to be an all star, but that's not really what I consider elite. I'm not trying to make some contentious point here: people just always have a grass is greener outlook when things aren't going well for their team. It makes it easier to cope with the disappointment if it can be easily blamed on allegedly simple alternative moves that their gm could have made that would have ensured a better situation. I just think the alternatives are often a wash.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/sengual01/gamelog/2024

I mean, there’s no sensible reason to be black or white. Sengun and Drummond should not be mentioned in the same sentence, despite their PER. Sengun is a better player, with more skills, more minutes.

I’m not being emo or whiny. Factually, Houston’s prospects are much better than ours. Why does that make me wishing for green grass? I was Team AK to the max, but the net result is a botch job regardless of injuries. He had 1 unfortunate injury, about 3 great moves, a handful of god awful moves and a mounting pile of inconsequential, useless moves (such as making a PBev play-in run instead of tanking for Wemby). 1 playoff win in 4 seasons after acquiring a 4-year tank job with options.

Can’t we just be fair? His clock is ticking. Short of rigging the system and having some secret new Jokic plan in the Euroleague waiting for a sneaky pickup, there’s no tangible ammo for upgrading this roster. ATM we are literally faced with downgrades: paying an aging Demar more money, paying an unproductive #4 bust more money, paying your 22 PER 15 mpg backup C more money, drafting a bench ceiling role player in one of the worst drafts of the decade, being faced with trading the injured 25 PPG vet 2x star for a pack of Osco brand corn chips, and waiting for Terry, Phillips to average 1 3P make a game.

If he actually swings for a lot of moves this summer, I’m actually afraid it’ll be a repeat of last time where he gives up and sells low on some guys who were due for better performance after bad injury luck (Zach, Pat), prepares to overpay Demar, Caruso/Coby/Ayo on their extensions, and over-invests roster spots on raw bench prospects (Terry, Phillips, Bitim).

I’ve been on record- I actually like this current team. It’s just… not going to result in a deep playoff contender. It’s literally stupid expecting that to happen at this point, short of Coby/Ayo/Pat making historic jumps in their development. I mean, it happened to Lauri… so OK, there’s a chance. Problem is Lauri’s definition of struggling/low was better adv. statistical performance than Coby on a hot streak.

AK is playing checkers, and it’s fair to admit it. Could’ve worked out with less injuries, but tripling down on decisions is decidedly stupid- not bad luck. Houston is in much better shape. They made their own idiotic move trading CP and a bunch of unprotected picks for Westbrook, and they didn’t have great luck with their draft slots, but they demonstrated how to recover and develop talent.

[drosestruts]

The Rockets kind of followed a similar playbook to us - acquired young talent and then quickly added multiple veterans (FVV, Brooks, Jeff Green, Steven Adams). There's just might fit better - FVV and Brooks are better fits alongside the young guys they have.

I still maintain that both DeRozan and LaVine are good players - they're just not good together, it doesn't work.

Vuc is just bad - that's the issue there.

And Ball is just injured.

But it's a similar concept. Just executed much differently.

They kept significantly more high lotto picks on the roster, though. AK traded 3 young bigs and 2 future lotto picks for 1 guy who’s currently net negative - something Houston did not do.

Lauri and Gafford were essentially given away for cap purposes (not wanting to pay extensions, catering to high minutes for Vuc). The Vuc trade is a hindsight F.

It’d be more parallel if Houston traded Sengun, Smith and their lotto pick for Valanciunas.

Right. Houston did the opposite thing that we did. The analogy could not be less accurate. Its like saying fire and water are basically the same thing.

Rockets young players with their age when they added the vets, followed by the vets the added:

Jalen Green - 22
Jabari Smith - 20
Amen Thompson - 20
Alperen Sengun - 21
Tari Eason - 21
Cam Whitemore - 19

They then added FVV, Brooks, Adams, Jeff Green, and Bullock.


Three years ago when AK/ME painted their "masterpiece" we had

LaVine - 25
Ball - 23
White - 21
Williams - 19
Markkanen - 23*
Dosunmu - 21

We added Vuc, DeRozan.

I'd equate Vuc and DeRozan as our veteran version of FVV and Brooks.

I will say the Rockets "young core" was and is younger. But ours was 5 lottery picks all 25 and under + Dosunmu.

*Markkanen didn't need to be traded to bring in anyone but DJJ and a pick we'll probably never see.

We acquired two our of young core through trade (LaVine and Ball) - so some mechanisms we're different but I see the additions of Books and FVV and the additions of DeRozan and Vuc as similar moves with a shared goal - add veteran pieces to a young core to jump start their success.

I see two teams that assembled a collection of young talented players and then brought in older veterans to accelerate the timeline.

I just think Houston's veteran additions were more complimentary to the young players they had.

[FriedRise]

Read on Twitter

Need Indiana to fall now lol

[Chi town]

They kept significantly more high lotto picks on the roster, though. AK traded 3 young bigs and 2 future lotto picks for 1 guy who’s currently net negative - something Houston did not do.

Lauri and Gafford were essentially given away for cap purposes (not wanting to pay extensions, catering to high minutes for Vuc). The Vuc trade is a hindsight F.

It’d be more parallel if Houston traded Sengun, Smith and their lotto pick for Valanciunas.

Right. Houston did the opposite thing that we did. The analogy could not be less accurate. Its like saying fire and water are basically the same thing.

Rockets young players with their age when they added the vets, followed by the vets the added:

Jalen Green - 22
Jabari Smith - 20
Amen Thompson - 20
Alperen Sengun - 21
Tari Eason - 21
Cam Whitemore - 19

They then added FVV, Brooks, Adams, Jeff Green, and Bullock.


Three years ago when AK/ME painted their "masterpiece" we had

LaVine - 25
Ball - 23
White - 21
Williams - 19
Markkanen - 23*
Dosunmu - 21

We added Vuc, DeRozan.

I'd equate Vuc and DeRozan as our veteran version of FVV and Brooks.

I will say the Rockets "young core" was and is younger. But ours was 5 lottery picks all 25 and under + Dosunmu.

*Markkanen didn't need to be traded to bring in anyone but DJJ and a pick we'll probably never see.

We acquired two our of young core through trade (LaVine and Ball) - so some mechanisms we're different but I see the additions of Books and FVV and the additions of DeRozan and Vuc as similar moves with a shared goal - add veteran pieces to a young core to jump start their success.

I see two teams that assembled a collection of young talented players and then brought in older veterans to accelerate the timeline.

I just think Houston's veteran additions were more complimentary to the young players they had.

HOU brought in shooting, defense, and toughness in Brooks and FVV.

Bulls brought in older, soft, offense only players that have sucked from 3.

Basically the worst possible players to compliment young players growth.

[Chi town]

After his heater Caruso up to 40% on 4.7 3s per game

Feels like this NBA you need two shooters that shoot at least 8 3s per game and another 4 shooters that shoot at least 5 per game.

Right now we have Coby and Zach at 8.
Ayo Caruso and maybe Pat at 5.
Lonzo would help a lot here.

[Ice Man]

This year's MVP vote will be -

#1 Jokic - Voters don't want to give him a 3rd, but they have no real choice
#2 Luka - He's having Russ's MVP season with more efficient scoring
#3 SGA - Crushing it for one of the two breakout teams in the league (along with Minnie)
#4 Giannis - As good as during his MVP years, but the competition is tougher and his team is weaker
#5 Tatum - Clearly the best player on clearly the best team, but also clearly not as good as the above guys

[kodo]

I've always disliked the "best player on the best team" philosophy of MVP even though that seems to be the most important criteria.
That would have resulted in

2022: Devin Booker as MVP
2021: Donovan Mitchell as MVP (or Gobert)

Not saying that Tatum is Booker or Mitchell, but probably closer to them than he is to Joker.

[Ice Man]

I've always disliked the "best player on the best team" philosophy of MVP even though that seems to be the most important criteria.
That would have resulted in

2022: Devin Booker as MVP
2021: Donovan Mitchell as MVP (or Gobert)

Not saying that Tatum is Booker or Mitchell, but probably closer to them than he is to Joker.

While I wholeheartedly agree with your first sentence, I will say that 2024 Boston is better than those teams and Tatum is better than those players. I think 5th is about the right place for him.

[drosestruts]

Does Washington beating Milwaukee make me feel better about our loss to them? No

Is it funny? Yes.

Both teams were horrible from three which you think would have given Milwaukee the advantage, but alas. Also the Wizards starting frontcourt was Bagley and Anthony Gill - I suppose Giannis did dominate with a 35 point triple double on great efficiency. Feel like Brook Lopez should have contributed more than 6 points and 2 rebounds vs that combo.

Lopez and Middleton have fallen off a cliff. Lillard cost a lot to acquire and I think Jrue Holiday is better these days. Malik Beasley is getting ready for his annual forgets how to shoot stretch.

Another Bucks first round exit? I could see Philly (with Embiid back), Miami, Indiana, or New York all knocking them out.

[Ice Man]

Lopez and Middleton have fallen off a cliff. Lillard cost a lot to acquire and I think Jrue Holiday is better these days. Malik Beasley is getting ready for his annual forgets how to shoot stretch.

Another Bucks first round exit? I could see Philly (with Embiid back), Miami, Indiana, or New York all knocking them out.

Well, you know me. I think that 98% of criticism of NBA coaches is misplaced, because players win and players lose. So, my take on the Bucks all season has been just what you wrote. Aside from Giannis, this team consists of old guys who are on the downslide. Adrian Griffin had nothing to do with that, and his coaching replacement doesn't either.

I'd be quite surprised if the Bucks got past the 2nd round, and like you not surprised if they were to lose in the 1st.

[MrSparkle]

7 blatant tank jobs in a bad draft… 1 soft tank (Jazz)… the Nets, Hawks and Bulls are the 3 worst “tried to win” teams in the league. Rationally that should be somewhat considered in the evaluation of this team. We tried to win and have a bottom-10 rating.

Anyway, seems no one cares that much about the adjusted lotto odds. Teams just tank even harder to guarantee top-6. I really feel like a lot of issues would be resolved by eliminating the NBA draft and opening it to a normal free agency process, or randomizing odds evenly between 30 teams (and if a contender wins the 3% odd of a #1 pick, bless their hearts and congrats to their fanbase- that’s not necessarily a dynasty extension).

It’s gross watching Toronto nuke so hard to keep the Spurs protection.

[DASMACKDOWN]

It’s gross watching Toronto nuke so hard to keep the Spurs protection.

Its smart though.

Why would Toronto try to win when they are out of playin/playoffs, their best player has a broken hand and their other best young guys are going thru injuries.

Toronto will probably lose out on like a 21 game losing streak.

[drosestruts]

It’s gross watching Toronto nuke so hard to keep the Spurs protection.

Its smart though.

Why would Toronto try to win when they are out of playin/playoffs, their best player has a broken hand and their other best young guys are going thru injuries.

Toronto will probably lose out on like a 21 game losing streak.

I think the issues come when you then double-down on the team. Quickley in his time with Toronto has a TS% of 55% - which puts him in line with a guy like Denis Schroder. How big of a contract do you sign this guy to? In a year - what extension are you giving to Barnes?

What does your team look like when you're paying big money to Quickley, Barnes, Barrett, and Poeltl??

I don't have much issue with Toronto tanking out the end of the season in order to keep their pick - but their direction overall does have me scratching my head? The vision of what they're building towards isn't clear to me. They aren't projected to have money to use beyond the MLE this year.

[Ice Man]

[Quickley in his time with Toronto has a TS% of 55% - which puts him in line with a guy like Denis Schroder.

The Bulls during the Thibs years understood how to value guards. Not sure if that was Thibs, GarPax, or both, but they got that right.

Which is, every team needs a few guards who can chuck, but you don't give up anything of value for them. And you don't worry if they walk. Little guys who can dribble and shoot are commodities. I don't mean shoot like Curry, of course. I mean shoot like Herro or Coby or Quickley or Schroder or Monta Ellis or DJ Augustin or, heck, I could go on and on.

Concentrate on getting a great PG, at least one great wing (two is better), and one stud big. Don't worry about the chucking guards. You can find them.

[Dan Z]

It’s gross watching Toronto nuke so hard to keep the Spurs protection.

Its smart though.

Why would Toronto try to win when they are out of playin/playoffs, their best player has a broken hand and their other best young guys are going thru injuries.

Toronto will probably lose out on like a 21 game losing streak.

That's something the Bulls front office could learn from (and should've done last year too).

[kodo]

For all of us who remember the Triangle, at 33:00 they mention how the Triangle and how it's still used today.

Watch on YouTube

[jc23]

Randle being out sucks for NY but at least they have something to look forward to next season. I can see them being as high as a 2 seed if healthy.

[Ice Man]

Randle being out sucks for NY but at least they have something to look forward to next season. I can see them being as high as a 2 seed if healthy.

Could be. There's a high likelihood that Embiid will once again miss a lot of games, and the Knicks are certainly good enough to finished ahead of everybody but Boston and Philly, if things break right for them.

[CROBulls]

[Quickley in his time with Toronto has a TS% of 55% - which puts him in line with a guy like Denis Schroder.

The Bulls during the Thibs years understood how to value guards. Not sure if that was Thibs, GarPax, or both, but they got that right.

Which is, every team needs a few guards who can chuck, but you don't give up anything of value for them. And you don't worry if they walk. Little guys who can dribble and shoot are commodities. I don't mean shoot like Curry, of course. I mean shoot like Herro or Coby or Quickley or Schroder or Monta Ellis or DJ Augustin or, heck, I could go on and on.

Concentrate on getting a great PG, at least one great wing (two is better), and one stud big. Don't worry about the chucking guards. You can find them.

Which is why you sell on Coby White as soon as you get good offer