Around The NBA : 2023-24 Season #2

[MikeDC]

I feel like you guys are consciously trying to focus on minor details and ignore the big, really obvious point that OKC was doing things fundamentally differently and even the superficial similarities (like losing 20+ games in a row) occurred for very different reasons.

In OKC, it happened on the front end of the rebuild because of the team consciously chose to tank and not play its best players.

In DET, it's happening on what was supposed to be a season where they emerged from a rebuild and are trying hard to be competitive.

It's not "just luck". OKC has made good decision after good decision. Detroit has made bad decision after bad decision. OKC has a stable and consistent organization that's all pulling in the same direction. Detroit has a factional and dysfunctional organization that's continually at odds.

Luck is for losers, as the saying goes. Another way to put it is that everyone needs luck, but a bad, dysfunctional team like the Pistons simply wastes the luck they get.

OKC got Shai (and the haul) in a Paul George trade, who they got as a mediocre tread-mill team with no "future" while trying to be competitive.

I don't get the love for OKC. If they don't get Shai as a throw-in from the thirsty Clippers, then they're just as lost as the next tank job... With Kiddey and Dort being Chet's wingmen.

If you want to say they didn't know how great Shai would be, sure. But they knew he would be good and having him was central to the deal.

Which is a fact you guys are not acknowledging, but it very important to understanding why some teams are successful and why others aren't. Timing. Talent evaluation.

OKC keeps coming up good because they do stuff like require guys like Shai as "throw ins". They ask for that extra 2nd rounder and get it. And they understand that timing matters. Trading PG when he's at the height of his value.

Remember when the Bulls traded with OKC? We traded Dog McDogmut and freaking Taj Gibson. And OKC asked for a got a 2nd rounder that turned out to be a high one 2018 #32... Mitchell Freaking Robinson!) to get a backup PG with a broken foot (Cam Payne).

OKC is a smart team. Not every move is going to work out, but they work out more because they're better at talent evaluation, they're better at planning, and they just know how and what to value more than dumbass teams like the Bulls and Pistons.

Smart teams ask for a lot and get it. Smart teams move a year sooner. Teams like the Bulls and Pistons are always moving a year or more too late, and generally compliantly handing over too freaking much.

Now, GarPax can just sit there and talk about, I guess, how it was unforeseeable that their big swing on Cam Payne just didn't work out while nobody could have imagined Shai would be so good. But that's ridiculous loser talk.

[MrSparkle]

I feel like you guys are consciously trying to focus on minor details and ignore the big, really obvious point that OKC was doing things fundamentally differently and even the superficial similarities (like losing 20+ games in a row) occurred for very different reasons.

In OKC, it happened on the front end of the rebuild because of the team consciously chose to tank and not play its best players.

In DET, it's happening on what was supposed to be a season where they emerged from a rebuild and are trying hard to be competitive.

It's not "just luck". OKC has made good decision after good decision. Detroit has made bad decision after bad decision. OKC has a stable and consistent organization that's all pulling in the same direction. Detroit has a factional and dysfunctional organization that's continually at odds.

Luck is for losers, as the saying goes. Another way to put it is that everyone needs luck, but a bad, dysfunctional team like the Pistons simply wastes the luck they get.

OKC got Shai (and the haul) in a Paul George trade, who they got as a mediocre tread-mill team with no "future" while trying to be competitive.

I don't get the love for OKC. If they don't get Shai as a throw-in from the thirsty Clippers, then they're just as lost as the next tank job... With Kiddey and Dort being Chet's wingmen.

If you want to say they didn't know how great Shai would be, sure. But they knew he would be good and having him was central to the deal.

Which is a fact you guys are not acknowledging, but it very important to understanding why some teams are successful and why others aren't. Timing. Talent evaluation.

OKC keeps coming up good because they do stuff like require guys like Shai as "throw ins". They ask for that extra 2nd rounder and get it. And they understand that timing matters. Trading PG when he's at the height of his value.

Remember when the Bulls traded with OKC? We traded Dog McDogmut and freaking Taj Gibson. And OKC asked for a got a 2nd rounder that turned out to be a high one 2018 #32... Mitchell Freaking Robinson!) to get a backup PG with a broken foot (Cam Payne).

OKC is a smart team. Not every move is going to work out, but they work out more because they're better at talent evaluation, they're better at planning, and they just know how and what to value more than dumbass teams like the Bulls and Pistons.

Smart teams ask for a lot and get it. Smart teams move a year sooner. Teams like the Bulls and Pistons are always moving a year or more too late, and generally compliantly handing over too freaking much.

Now, GarPax can just sit there and talk about, I guess, how it was unforeseeable that their big swing on Cam Payne just didn't work out while nobody could have imagined Shai would be so good. But that's ridiculous loser talk.

I still don't agree with you. Presti entered a job with Durant gifted to him - he helped the Celtics win a chip by sending Ray for a bust Jeff Green - and he ultimately sniffed a ring but lost it all by picking Thabo, Ibaka and Kendrick Perkins over paying Harden the max.

They traded PG because he and FA Kawhi colluded to unite in their hometown LA via the Clippers. I don't think OKC were shopping George; that's why Ballmer signed off on such a bat**** trade offer. He had to pay a premium for a guy who had broken his leg severely the year prior, and was back in ASG shape but chronically injury prone.

The Ibaka/Orlando trade is still one of the most puzzling swaps of all-time. I don't know what the Magic were smoking the night of that trade, but sending Oladipo and Sabonis' draft rights for an expiring Ibaka, coming off a career low season, was one of the most bizarre trades in NBA history. But that gift kept giving as he was able to capitalize on Indiana with that package, and ultimately the Clippers.

But lucky breaks like that happen in the NBA. Was Paxson more genius, or was Isiah more of a buffoon? Cause we never saw the same pattern of ingenious trading after those 2 off-seasons.

I'd love to hear about all of Presti's other ingenious trades (future MVP for Kevin Martin, future champ Ray Allen for Jeff Green, Jeff Green for K. Perkins). The CP3/Westbrook swap worked out well; dunno why Houston bothered attaching picks, but it seemed more stupid and desperate on their end.

I like Presti, but I don't know why a guy with multiple HOFs on his roster and zero championships gets held to such a high pedigree by some of you guys. Even Isiah Thomas could've built a contender around Kevin Durant and Eddy Curry.

[MikeDC]

OKC got Shai (and the haul) in a Paul George trade, who they got as a mediocre tread-mill team with no "future" while trying to be competitive.

I don't get the love for OKC. If they don't get Shai as a throw-in from the thirsty Clippers, then they're just as lost as the next tank job... With Kiddey and Dort being Chet's wingmen.

If you want to say they didn't know how great Shai would be, sure. But they knew he would be good and having him was central to the deal.

Which is a fact you guys are not acknowledging, but it very important to understanding why some teams are successful and why others aren't. Timing. Talent evaluation.

OKC keeps coming up good because they do stuff like require guys like Shai as "throw ins". They ask for that extra 2nd rounder and get it. And they understand that timing matters. Trading PG when he's at the height of his value.

Remember when the Bulls traded with OKC? We traded Dog McDogmut and freaking Taj Gibson. And OKC asked for a got a 2nd rounder that turned out to be a high one 2018 #32... Mitchell Freaking Robinson!) to get a backup PG with a broken foot (Cam Payne).

OKC is a smart team. Not every move is going to work out, but they work out more because they're better at talent evaluation, they're better at planning, and they just know how and what to value more than dumbass teams like the Bulls and Pistons.

Smart teams ask for a lot and get it. Smart teams move a year sooner. Teams like the Bulls and Pistons are always moving a year or more too late, and generally compliantly handing over too freaking much.

Now, GarPax can just sit there and talk about, I guess, how it was unforeseeable that their big swing on Cam Payne just didn't work out while nobody could have imagined Shai would be so good. But that's ridiculous loser talk.

I still don't agree with you. Presti entered a job with Durant gifted to him - he helped the Celtics win a chip by sending Ray for a bust Jeff Green - and he ultimately sniffed a ring but lost it all by picking Thabo, Ibaka and Kendrick Perkins over paying Harden the max.

They traded PG because he and FA Kawhi colluded to unite in their hometown LA via the Clippers. I don't think OKC were shopping George; that's why Ballmer signed off on such a bat**** trade offer. He had to pay a premium for a guy who had broken his leg severely the year prior, and was back in ASG shape but chronically injury prone.

The Ibaka/Orlando trade is still one of the most puzzling swaps of all-time. I don't know what the Magic were smoking the night of that trade, but sending Oladipo and Sabonis' draft rights for an expiring Ibaka, coming off a career low season, was one of the most bizarre trades in NBA history. But that gift kept giving as he was able to capitalize on Indiana with that package, and ultimately the Clippers.

Weird how "good luck" just keeps happening over and over to OKC but not to us...

But lucky breaks like that happen in the NBA. Was Paxson more genius, or was Isiah more of a buffoon? Cause we never saw the same pattern of ingenious trading after those 2 off-seasons.

Paxson was average and Isaiah was a buffoon working for another buffoon.

I'd love to hear about all of Presti's other ingenious trades (future MVP for Kevin Martin, future champ Ray Allen for Jeff Green, Jeff Green for K. Perkins). The CP3/Westbrook swap worked out well; dunno why Houston bothered attaching picks, but it seemed more stupid and desperate on their end.

I doubt it, because it would further undermine the interpretation you're pushing. If you heard the full truth of the Harden deal, you'd understand that it was apparently forced or at least influenced by the owner (the late Aubrey McClendon) being in financial hot water with the Feds, the team being completely out of money, and the structure of a new CBA that hit them at such a key time that the league actually stepped in paid the Thunder back for some of the money they had to fork over for KD's supermax.

I've already said that no team is going to get every move right. But, Presti consistently does a lot better than almost everyone else. And you're left grasping for saying you "don't know" why all the teams that deal with him seem to lose those deals. Well, it's because Presti is a good GM and most of the guys he deals with are not.

I like Presti, but I don't know why a guy with multiple HOFs on his roster and zero championships gets held to such a high pedigree by some of you guys. Even Isiah Thomas could've built a contender around Kevin Durant and Eddy Curry.

Actually no. That's kind of the point. Bad GMs pretty regularly outsmart themselves. Presti wasn't gifted KD, he chose to take him. A guy like Isiah would probably have kept Allen (going into his age 32 season!) and Rashard Lewis (also on the roster until Presti let the Magic massively overpay for him) and drafted Mike Conley or Spencer Hawes because they were "ready" to step in and help immediately.

C'mon, you know this. You can hear all the meathead guys bobbing along to Isiah and talking about how KD is nothing but an undeveloped version of Rashard Lewis anyway, and the Sonics will be back in the playoffs with Conley/Allen/Rashard and Nick Collison. That was a dead end team, and Isiah would never pass up the chance to hold on to the aging Allen for too long or overpay the mediocre Lewis too much. I mean, why draft KD? He's just a younger version of Rashard... we'll be rebuilding for years!

[Jeffster81]

Detroit is making me wish the NBA had promotion/relegation, because the Pistons belong in the G-League.

relegation would be cool but something that just wouldnt work in this country. Maybe for the team that finishes with the worst record you are disqualified from picks 1-5 that year.

I know but I can still wish for it.

[MrSparkle]

Actually no. That's kind of the point. Bad GMs pretty regularly outsmart themselves. Presti wasn't gifted KD, he chose to take him. A guy like Isiah would probably have kept Allen (going into his age 32 season!) and Rashard Lewis (also on the roster until Presti let the Magic massively overpay for him) and drafted Mike Conley or Spencer Hawes because they were "ready" to step in and help immediately.

C'mon, you know this. You can hear all the meathead guys bobbing along to Isiah and talking about how KD is nothing but an undeveloped version of Rashard Lewis anyway, and the Sonics will be back in the playoffs with Conley/Allen/Rashard and Nick Collison. That was a dead end team, and Isiah would never pass up the chance to hold on to the aging Allen for too long or overpay the mediocre Lewis too much. I mean, why draft KD? He's just a younger version of Rashard... we'll be rebuilding for years!

Are you suggesting any GM would have not picked Durant? Presti had no decision to make with the #2 pick. Oden was the consensus #1 (with some red flags, but apparently not enough to scare off every draft expert). With him off the board, no GM in their right mind was going to consider Horford or Conley over KD.

Sam scored another break at #2 with Chet. If Orlando took Chet, he'd have drafted Paolo. First year, Paolo looked great, but now that Chet's healthy, this might end as an Embiid/Jabari/Wiggins situation.

If they landed #3, they'd have Jabari Smith. It's a lottery, especially in consensus 1-3 drafts- not an archery contest. Detroit tried (even harder) to do the very thing OKC and ORL did, but they came away with #5 (and there's a good chance Ivey pans out, but far and from it ATM).

MJ at #3 was the luckiest no-brainer of all-time... Followed by KD at #2 over Oden... And Luka over Ayton/Bagley.

When you get a superstar to drop over 1-2 mega busts, you just thank your stars you dodged the Bowie Oden bullet. I guess GarPax had their "difficult decision" with Rose/Beasley, but fortunately Beasley was a clear knucklehead, Rose was a hometown kid, and we really needed a playmaker more than a scorer. I don't applaud these as genius moves; they are very lucky breaks.

You do question scouting departments when they follow the ESPN draft board instead of really doing their own homework. I wonder if GMs just get indoctrinated in their head the "can't-miss" potential of guys like Oden, although the injury (and skill) red flags were all noted (though by that logic, Embiid shouldn't have arrived). I admit to not really knowing how complicated that scouting process could be. But as the story went, Portland was worried about his poor bench press, and I recall that being a written up as a possible blunder before either guy played an NBA game.

[biggestbullsfan]

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[Lexluthor]

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Seriously who cares about Derrick rose , he lead us nowhere in his prime but for some reason he gets more love on this board than Michael jordan

[ThisGuyFawkes]

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Seriously who cares about Derrick rose , he lead us nowhere in his prime but for some reason he gets more love on this board than Michael jordan

Maybe because there's a lot of fans that aren't old enough to watch or remember the dynasty era. Rose has easily been the best bulls player since then.

Jimmy was great but his peak with the bulls never matched Rose's peak.

[kodo]

Heat vs Sixers on Christmas, and the player of the game is Jaquez. Another great Heat pick.

[jump]

Actually no. That's kind of the point. Bad GMs pretty regularly outsmart themselves. Presti wasn't gifted KD, he chose to take him. A guy like Isiah would probably have kept Allen (going into his age 32 season!) and Rashard Lewis (also on the roster until Presti let the Magic massively overpay for him) and drafted Mike Conley or Spencer Hawes because they were "ready" to step in and help immediately.

C'mon, you know this. You can hear all the meathead guys bobbing along to Isiah and talking about how KD is nothing but an undeveloped version of Rashard Lewis anyway, and the Sonics will be back in the playoffs with Conley/Allen/Rashard and Nick Collison. That was a dead end team, and Isiah would never pass up the chance to hold on to the aging Allen for too long or overpay the mediocre Lewis too much. I mean, why draft KD? He's just a younger version of Rashard... we'll be rebuilding for years!

Are you suggesting any GM would have not picked Durant? Presti had no decision to make with the #2 pick. Oden was the consensus #1 (with some red flags, but apparently not enough to scare off every draft expert). With him off the board, no GM in their right mind was going to consider Horford or Conley over KD.

Sam scored another break at #2 with Chet. If Orlando took Chet, he'd have drafted Paolo. First year, Paolo looked great, but now that Chet's healthy, this might end as an Embiid/Jabari/Wiggins situation.

If they landed #3, they'd have Jabari Smith. It's a lottery, especially in consensus 1-3 drafts- not an archery contest. Detroit tried (even harder) to do the very thing OKC and ORL did, but they came away with #5 (and there's a good chance Ivey pans out, but far and from it ATM).

MJ at #3 was the luckiest no-brainer of all-time... Followed by KD at #2 over Oden... And Luka over Ayton/Bagley.

When you get a superstar to drop over 1-2 mega busts, you just thank your stars you dodged the Bowie Oden bullet. I guess GarPax had their "difficult decision" with Rose/Beasley, but fortunately Beasley was a clear knucklehead, Rose was a hometown kid, and we really needed a playmaker more than a scorer. I don't applaud these as genius moves; they are very lucky breaks.

You do question scouting departments when they follow the ESPN draft board instead of really doing their own homework. I wonder if GMs just get indoctrinated in their head the "can't-miss" potential of guys like Oden, although the injury (and skill) red flags were all noted (though by that logic, Embiid shouldn't have arrived). I admit to not really knowing how complicated that scouting process could be. But as the story went, Portland was worried about his poor bench press, and I recall that being a written up as a possible blunder before either guy played an NBA game.

We’ll if you really want to talk about timing and luck, keep in mind that if the NBA hadn’t instituted the 19 year old rule the year before, Oden and Durant would have gone Number 1 and 2 out of high school. And guess who had pick Number 2 that year. The Bulls. We would have had Durant instead of Tyrus Thomas. Think about that for a minute.

[Repeat 3-peat]

The Suns are a mess.

Luka with 50 pts, 14 ast, 6 rebs, 4 stls, 3 blks

[Ice Man]

Seriously who cares about Derrick rose , he lead us nowhere in his prime but for some reason he gets more love on this board than Michael jordan

I never understood this sort of thing. By this logic, the only two players in Bulls history who matter are Mike and Scottie, because they were the only two players who were ever indispensable for the Bulls advancing to the NBA Finals. I mean, that's it? We're not allowed to have strong and fond memories of anybody else?

[Ice Man]

MJ at #3 was the luckiest no-brainer of all-time... Followed by KD at #2 over Oden... And Luka over Ayton/Bagley.

While I agree with both your thesis and the first two examples, the third very much does not work, as Dallas targeted Luka. He didn''t fall to Dallas. The organization wanted him, was pretty certain that he would fall to #3, and make the move to get the #3 pick to acquire him. Very different than say the Bulls with MJ, Every team in the league would have picked Hakeem first, considered Mike and Bowie to be coin flips, and would have taken whomever remained among those two as the 3rd pick. My grandmama would have selected Jordan.

[MrSparkle]

MJ at #3 was the luckiest no-brainer of all-time... Followed by KD at #2 over Oden... And Luka over Ayton/Bagley.

While I agree with both your thesis and the first two examples, the third very much does not work, as Dallas targeted Luka. He didn''t fall to Dallas. The organization wanted him, was pretty certain that he would fall to #3, and make the move to get the #3 pick to acquire him. Very different than say the Bulls with MJ, Every team in the league would have picked Hakeem first, considered Mike and Bowie to be coin flips, and would have taken whomever remained among those two as the 3rd pick. My grandmama would have selected Jordan.

That’s a good point, although had that Dallas trade not happened, or the teams were completely different, pretty sure whoever had #3 was gonna be stuck “stuck” with Luka.

[MrSparkle]

Well, now we wait and see if KD and Booker hit the market.

PHX was long-screwed ever since they agreed to that Nets trade. Way too steep a depth price for a 34yo - Mikal will be collecting all-star appearances while Suns pay up top-10 picks. Dumped an entire young finals roster for a guy facing Father Time.

IMO they should move fast. Both could still net a farm and chest of picks, especially if you get OKC, Orlando, Detroit and Philly on the line. I guess Kings are in it to win it, too.

[Ice Man]

That’s a good point, although had that Dallas trade not happened, or the teams were completely different, pretty sure whoever had #3 was gonna be stuck “stuck” with Luka.

Correct. Only the Mavs were *that* eager for Luka. Probablys some other teams would have taken him over Bagley, and maybe even #1, but basically only Dallas thought that Luka was in a different category than Ayton and Bagley.

While we're giving credit where credit is due, Ainge deserves a whole bunch for trading down for Tatum when the almost universal consensus was that Fultz/Lonzo were at a higher level. When the general beleif is that it's a two-player draft and you swap the #1 pick for the #3 pick, and that trade works spectacularly well ... well let's just say that a trade like that can make a GM's entire career.

As a side note, when the draft ended, The Ringer awarded Philly and the Lakers A grades for selecting Fultz and Lonzo, while the Celts only got a B for getting Tatum. That's why I don't read articles about draft grades.

https://www.theringer.com/2017/6/22/16047058/2017-nba-draft-grading-the-picks-8302d41fac87

[Mbrahv0528]

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Seriously who cares about Derrick rose , he lead us nowhere in his prime but for some reason he gets more love on this board than Michael jordan

A lot of Bulls fans, myself included. The highs were never quite high enough obviously, but the tantalizing potential and the "what if" (there's too many to list) questions will forever be etched into my brain (and many other Bulls' fans obviously). I'm old enough to have watched Jordan in his Prime, but the Derrick Rose Bulls are a solid #2 for me on the list of reasons why I'm a Bulls fan.

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[madvillian]

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Seriously who cares about Derrick rose , he lead us nowhere in his prime but for some reason he gets more love on this board than Michael jordan

A lot of Bulls fans, myself included. The highs were never quite high enough obviously, but the tantalizing potential and the "what if" (there's too many to list) questions will forever be etched into my brain (and many other Bulls' fans obviously). I'm old enough to have watched Jordan in his Prime, but the Derrick Rose Bulls are a solid #2 for me on the list of reasons why I'm a Bulls fan.

Sent from my SM-S918U using RealGM mobile app

Derrick's three dunks in the first Heat playoff series was the most excited I've been as a Bulls fan in my adult life. The last dynasty win I was still a young teen so it didn't fully register.

Derrick brought us some good times. He didn't leave us with good times, or a good impression, but at least he brought some for awhile.

[Michael Jackson]

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Seriously who cares about Derrick rose , he lead us nowhere in his prime but for some reason he gets more love on this board than Michael jordan

Rose was the only one who actually did something here post Jordan. Yeah he wasn't MJ we all know it but that kid was the youngest MVP ever and they as a team not just him but took the Heatles hard that year. Then injuries, but if nothing else he really opened up the ghost of MJ mythology.

TLDR

Cute picture

[Muzbar]

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Seriously who cares about Derrick rose , he lead us nowhere in his prime but for some reason he gets more love on this board than Michael jordan

I care about Derrick Rose, and many other Bulls fans. It's not his fault he was riddled with injuries that changed the direction of his career.

Derrick gave this fan base hope for the first time since Jordan, they had a superstar who was the youngest MVP in league history.

Derrick lead us nowhere in his prime because injuries took his prime away, I don't think he gets more love than Jordan, but he was more recent, Jordan retired from the Bulls 24 years ago.

I'm very happy to see he's enjoying life.