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Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return?

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Keep AC or trade him for a good return

Keep
26
35%
Trade
49
65%
 
Total votes: 75

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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#21 » by MikeDC » Sun Jan 7, 2024 6:15 pm

League Circles wrote:
MikeDC wrote:I get why people want to get a picture of what "trade for a good return" looks like, but let's also be realistic about what "keep" AC looks like.

With Caruso, we're a mediocre team. Without Caruso we're a mediocre team. He's 6th in minutes played. We're not going to fall apart without him. With him, he's not going to lead us anywhere special.

Keep him and we are committing to more of the same both for the rest of this year and next year. Then, at the end of next season, he's a 30 year old FA who's probably out the door. Or we overpay to re-sign him.

Either way this is a clear case where "Keep" doesn't seem all that great. So the question is do you move a year early or a year late?

Well, obviously you move early.
1. With Coby/Zach/Ayo we can afford to lose him and still credibly fill in the guard slots.
2. His value to a contending team as a 29 year old they get for two playoff runs on a team-friendly deal is much higher than it will be as a 30 year old they get for one and then have to worry about re-signing.

From that perspective, a "good return" is relative. The return we get this year is going to be obviously better than the return we'd get by waiting. This is the high point of his value in trade. The opportunity cost of losing him is minimal.

Put all that together and this is the most obvious and easiest question to answer about the Bulls. Of course you trade him!

Idk, what you're saying makes sense, but the return now may be less desirable than re-signing him in summer 2025, which may very well not require a deal above the full MLE. So if it's between that and getting, say, a late 2024 first (and bad matching salary), I'd keep him and roll the dice.

It's always tricky when people assess value in terms of draft capital because it ignores the never-irrelevant matching salary that would be coming back, with all the pros and cons associated with the players making that salary.


Why do you think he would re-sign here for less than the MLE? That seems really optimistic to me. He's generally accepted to be the best backcourt defender in the league. He's going to get automatic MLEs offers from every good team unless he totally falls apart.

And that's the obvious counterpoint. Do we want to be sitting on the risk of the front end of a sizable deal for a 31 year old guard who's constantly getting injured? That's the kind of chance you might reasonably take if you're a contending team and think Caruso could make you a champion. It's not the kind of chance you take if you reasonably assess that he might take you from a 40 win team to a 42 win team. Objectively, his next contract bears significant risk.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#22 » by League Circles » Sun Jan 7, 2024 6:45 pm

MikeDC wrote:
League Circles wrote:
MikeDC wrote:I get why people want to get a picture of what "trade for a good return" looks like, but let's also be realistic about what "keep" AC looks like.

With Caruso, we're a mediocre team. Without Caruso we're a mediocre team. He's 6th in minutes played. We're not going to fall apart without him. With him, he's not going to lead us anywhere special.

Keep him and we are committing to more of the same both for the rest of this year and next year. Then, at the end of next season, he's a 30 year old FA who's probably out the door. Or we overpay to re-sign him.

Either way this is a clear case where "Keep" doesn't seem all that great. So the question is do you move a year early or a year late?

Well, obviously you move early.
1. With Coby/Zach/Ayo we can afford to lose him and still credibly fill in the guard slots.
2. His value to a contending team as a 29 year old they get for two playoff runs on a team-friendly deal is much higher than it will be as a 30 year old they get for one and then have to worry about re-signing.

From that perspective, a "good return" is relative. The return we get this year is going to be obviously better than the return we'd get by waiting. This is the high point of his value in trade. The opportunity cost of losing him is minimal.

Put all that together and this is the most obvious and easiest question to answer about the Bulls. Of course you trade him!

Idk, what you're saying makes sense, but the return now may be less desirable than re-signing him in summer 2025, which may very well not require a deal above the full MLE. So if it's between that and getting, say, a late 2024 first (and bad matching salary), I'd keep him and roll the dice.

It's always tricky when people assess value in terms of draft capital because it ignores the never-irrelevant matching salary that would be coming back, with all the pros and cons associated with the players making that salary.


Why do you think he would re-sign here for less than the MLE? That seems really optimistic to me. He's generally accepted to be the best backcourt defender in the league. He's going to get automatic MLEs offers from every good team unless he totally falls apart.

And that's the obvious counterpoint. Do we want to be sitting on the risk of the front end of a sizable deal for a 31 year old guard who's constantly getting injured? That's the kind of chance you might reasonably take if you're a contending team and think Caruso could make you a champion. It's not the kind of chance you take if you reasonably assess that he might take you from a 40 win team to a 42 win team. Objectively, his next contract bears significant risk.


I don't think he would sign here for less than the full MLE, but I do think there's a good chance that his best real offer on the open market is the full 4 year MLE from (multiple) other teams, in which case we could probably keep him on a 4 or 5 year deal for just slightly more than that, which yes still has risk, but so does anything coming back for him in trade.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#23 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun Jan 7, 2024 6:51 pm

Both. Is both an option?

Oof, this is tough because Caruso's age clearly doesn't fit our timeline so logically it would make sense to sell high on him for a haul of a return, but he's also an elite role player, culture setter, and heavily contributes to winning basketball and will be impossible to replace.

His value and impact goes far beyond the box score. I would probably sell high on him, but would hate myself for doing so.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#24 » by GoBlue72391 » Sun Jan 7, 2024 6:56 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:Both. Is both an option?

Oof, this is tough because Caruso's age clearly doesn't fit our timeline so logically it would make sense to sell high on him for a haul of a return, but he's also an elite role player, culture setter, and heavily contributes to winning basketball and will be impossible to replace.

His value and impact goes far beyond the box score. I would probably sell high on him, but would hate myself for doing so.
I also want to add that I would only trade him if we plan on moving on from at least two of the Mid 3. If we triple down and keep them then we should keep Caruso too.

That's probably what will end up happening, maybe a light "retooling."
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#25 » by DuckIII » Sun Jan 7, 2024 7:21 pm

GoBlue72391 wrote:Both. Is both an option?

Oof, this is tough because Caruso's age clearly doesn't fit our timeline . . .


Agree with the rest of the post 100% but unfortunately I have to quibble with this language.

Caruso’s age does not fit the timeline the FO should adopt. His age absolutely does fit what the FO appears to prefer. Which is idiotic, but accurate.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#26 » by Salo23 » Sun Jan 7, 2024 8:08 pm

He is already injury prone and on minutes management, which is fine for now since he’s on a friendly contract and the tail end of his prime, but I don’t want to be the team that gives him his next contract as he ages and misses more games. He turns 30 next month.

Sell high, either alone or combined with one of the Mid 3 in a larger package.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#27 » by panthermark » Sun Jan 7, 2024 8:37 pm

Trade him. He is being wasted here.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#28 » by NecessaryEvil » Sun Jan 7, 2024 9:04 pm

panthermark wrote:Trade him. He is being wasted here.


I love A.C. but you gotta get the max value for him and let this guy go to a contender.

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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#29 » by ChiTownHero1992 » Sun Jan 7, 2024 9:33 pm

Guard rotation is too bloated and not talented enough to actually compete as constucted (Ayo, Coby, Zach, Carter, Caruso and somewhat DDR). Personally, for me there are two options and he doesn't fit either of them:

A) We plan to compete and keep Lavine and the others, which means that the only way to improve the roster is using the assets we have, the only real asset currently that ANYONE actually wants is Alex Caruso - so that means TRADE him to better build roster

B) We plan to strip it down and rebuild, which means we want to give Ayo and Coby most of the minutes and stack the roster with YOUTH and PICKs, which means again TRADE him to get picks/youth and rebuild

As good as he has been for the Bulls, he has to go for one of the above reasons from what i can see.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#30 » by Dan Z » Sun Jan 7, 2024 10:11 pm

I agree with what Duck said (that it depends on what they do with the rest of the roster).

I'd prefer a rebuild, but doubt that AKME will actually do one. With that in mind I'd probably keep AC if they get a decent return for Zach (meaning future assets or a young player with potential).

If they keep the roster intact, and push for the play-in, then I don't see the team going very far and it's possible that we'll see more of the same next year.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#31 » by Wingy » Sun Jan 7, 2024 10:30 pm

coldfish wrote:IMO, Caruso's impact goes far beyond the basic box score. He is the QB of the defense. You will hear him calling out defenses both on the court and from the bench. He sets a tone and an example. If you want to develop young players, Alex Caruso is exactly the type of player you want to have around them.


Coby, Pat, and Ayo will have had 2.5 years playing with AC by the deadline. How much do they benefit from another 0.5-1.5 years? Not to say they can’t learn more, but they’ve seen what he does for a long time.

Everyone loves what AC brings, but I think the board’s feelings are understandably and strongly sentimental.

Of course it always depends on what we’d get back, but hard to imagine anything but an overpay given the current climate. Too many buyers. Ultra competitive wide open NBA. Value contract, 2 playoff runs.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#32 » by coldfish » Sun Jan 7, 2024 10:58 pm

Wingy wrote:
coldfish wrote:IMO, Caruso's impact goes far beyond the basic box score. He is the QB of the defense. You will hear him calling out defenses both on the court and from the bench. He sets a tone and an example. If you want to develop young players, Alex Caruso is exactly the type of player you want to have around them.


Coby, Pat, and Ayo will have had 2.5 years playing with AC by the deadline. How much do they benefit from another 0.5-1.5 years? Not to say they can’t learn more, but they’ve seen what he does for a long time.

Everyone loves what AC brings, but I think the board’s feelings are understandably and strongly sentimental.

Of course it always depends on what we’d get back, but hard to imagine anything but an overpay given the current climate. Too many buyers. Ultra competitive wide open NBA. Value contract, 2 playoff runs.


Again, talk specifics. Multiple firsts? A single first? A prospect? A highly protected first?

As I said, anyone is available but I think that people put too much value on late 1st round picks.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#33 » by dougthonus » Mon Jan 8, 2024 12:16 am

coldfish wrote:Again, talk specifics. Multiple firsts? A single first? A prospect? A highly protected first?

As I said, anyone is available but I think that people put too much value on late 1st round picks.


A somewhat realistic option might be something like to GS for Kuminga and Moody.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#34 » by Chi town » Mon Jan 8, 2024 12:26 am

You trade Caruso with DDR for Reeves Rui and a 1st.

You trade Zach for CP3 expiring, TJD, POD.

Coby/POD
Reeves/Ayo
Pat/
Rui/TJD
Vuc/Drummond
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#35 » by dougthonus » Mon Jan 8, 2024 12:29 am

Chi town wrote:You trade Caruso with DDR for Reeves Rui and a 1st.

You trade Zach for CP3 expiring, TJD, POD.

Coby/POD
Reeves/Ayo
Pat/
Rui/TJD
Vuc/Drummond


I don't believe that GS can trade for Zach with anyone other than Steph or Klay. They are over the 2nd apron, so they can't aggregate salaries to trade for a more expensive player.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#36 » by Repeat 3-peat » Mon Jan 8, 2024 12:32 am

Chi town wrote:You trade Caruso with DDR for Reeves Rui and a 1st.

You trade Zach for CP3 expiring, TJD, POD.

Coby/POD
Reeves/Ayo
Pat/
Rui/TJD
Vuc/Drummond


Rui sucks, and is a poor defender.

Zero interest in seeing this team paying him $17-$18 mil for two more seasons.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#37 » by vxmike » Mon Jan 8, 2024 12:37 am

ChettheJet wrote:He's a good piece for a contending team, especially in the playoffs. He provides a spark off the bench, that playoff team can overcome his absence when he gets that game or two injury because their big names can step up. For the Bulls he's a luxury that maybe takes them from 38 wins to 41.When he gets those nagging injuries the Bulls need Ayo, Carter maybe Terry to step up for those games, not their big names. If they do the Bulls have a chance to win those games, if they don't they lose.

I'm trading him for someone with more potential to be a starter


Agree. Caruso is an awesome win NOW guy for a playoff team. He’s an unnecessary luxury for a team struggling to make the play-in. He has huge value now on a cheap contracts for two more playoffs. Do the Bulls really wanna re-sign him to a big contract in two years for his 30s? He’s a guy that isn’t very durable too.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#38 » by Wingy » Mon Jan 8, 2024 1:24 am

dougthonus wrote:
coldfish wrote:Again, talk specifics. Multiple firsts? A single first? A prospect? A highly protected first?

As I said, anyone is available but I think that people put too much value on late 1st round picks.


A somewhat realistic option might be something like to GS for Kuminga and Moody.


I came back to post Kuminga and a top 4 protected first.

I’d take a swing at Moody, though I’m not all that impressed by the quick, knee jerk eye test. Perhaps Kuminga/Moody/pick swap (our choice).

Generally speaking, a young reclamation project like Kuminga and a mid-first works for me.

Two mid-firsts, I’d go for it. I’d probably do a mid first and a later first as well.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#39 » by NecessaryEvil » Mon Jan 8, 2024 1:46 am

Wingy wrote:
dougthonus wrote:
coldfish wrote:Again, talk specifics. Multiple firsts? A single first? A prospect? A highly protected first?

As I said, anyone is available but I think that people put too much value on late 1st round picks.


A somewhat realistic option might be something like to GS for Kuminga and Moody.


I came back to post Kuminga and a top 4 protected first.

I’d take a swing at Moody, though I’m not all that impressed by the quick, knee jerk eye test. Perhaps Kuminga/Moody/pick swap (our choice).

Generally speaking, a young reclamation project like Kuminga and a mid-first works for me.

Two mid-firsts, I’d go for it. I’d probably do a mid first and a later first as well.



I'd drive A.C. to O'hare, personally

We may have something good in a Patrick Williams-Jonathan Kuminga SF/PF duo. They certainly have the youth on their side.
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Re: Alex Caruso: Do you want too keep him or trade him for a good return? 

Post#40 » by Bandit King » Mon Jan 8, 2024 2:45 am

Trade him for a real Power Forward!
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