It's painfully obvious DeMar isn't conducive to a modern, efficient offense

[ScrantonBulls]

Unless he's willing to come off the bench, there's just no need for him anymore. Coby fills the scoring niche we needed DeMar for. The rumors of AKME trying to resign him are concerning. They would completely confirm AKME's utter incompetence.

He needs to go. We all know AKME wants to compete. Trade him for role players for all I care. I doubt he has much value as is. Maybe there's a trade that makes both teams better.

[GoBlue72391]

I have my Lavine and Vuc scapegoat threads on standby should they be needed. I'm joking, but we really do have a rotating cast of guys we blame that changes on a game-by-game basis. Last game Zach, today Demar, next one Vuc. Rinse and repeat.

I'm not saying the criticism isn't warranted, it's just funny how quickly the narratives change.

[2weekswithpay]

I think it's fair to criticize Demar's performance but he's still the best shot creator and the only one that gets to the line consistently. I'm fine with trading Demar but he does still have value to the team.

[NecessaryEvil]

Nobodies benching these 30 million dollar guys, it’s just not going to happen.

[RSP83]

What the hell was that tonight from Demar? He didn't have to run like that. And he would've been fine and the team would've secure the win in regulation. He almost singlehandedly cost this team the game.

But I'm more amazed with Billy not doing anything to save the game.

[WindyCityBorn]

He can be if he stops cosplaying as Jordan at the end of games even when he is off. He is great passer, he draws fouls and he is shooting respectably from 3. His age is the biggest issue. If he was 30 he would be a core piece. But he’s not.

[Hangtime84]

Demar just needs to surrounded by a higher pace and 3 point shooting teams. He is amazing in spots and draw fouls which helps teams stay consistent. But he is way less efficient from the mid range this year.

[dougthonus]

DeMar give-ith and DeMar take-ith away.

The same style of play that almost lost us the game is exactly what he's done to win us a ton of games. He's been an excellent floor raiser for us, but you also see why he's not a ceiling raiser, especially at his age.

We are boxed into a situation where this team is an absolute ton worse if you get rid of him, but we also are going to struggle to get past pedestrian with him since his primary value is slow, heavy, isolation oriented, ball-pounding play. In some fictional world, every player could see the whole picture and fit into it in the perfect way, but DeMar is 34. He's probably not going to change the way he sees the game at this point.

I just hope we don't extend him, and not because he's a bad guy, but this show is going to get worse at ages 35-37 where his game is the same, but his effectiveness at it is less.

[League Circles]

There's nothing wrong with Demar's style. The problem is that his efficiency is way down. He was inefficient for his entire career before the past 4 years (2 in SA, 2 with us) when he had a late blossoming into finally being a good player starting at age 30 (remember that - late primes aren't nearly as rare as many presume). Now he's way down in efficiency this year to the point where he's notably below league average I think. He's a low turnover, low foul player who gets plenty of assists.

The entire problem really is that he's devolved into a low efficiency, high volume guy, and sub par defense added to that means an unimportant player. At this point I almost think we have to let him walk, unless we can get positive trade return before the deadline, which I find unlikely. I would guess his return would be bad salary going at least through next year and a low value draft pick. That's a HARD pass for me.

[League Circles]

DeMar give-ith and DeMar take-ith away.

The same style of play that almost lost us the game is exactly what he's done to win us a ton of games. He's been an excellent floor raiser for us, but you also see why he's not a ceiling raiser, especially at his age.

We are boxed into a situation where this team is an absolute ton worse if you get rid of him, but we also are going to struggle to get past pedestrian with him since his primary value is slow, heavy, isolation oriented, ball-pounding play. In some fictional world, every player could see the whole picture and fit into it in the perfect way, but DeMar is 34. He's probably not going to change the way he sees the game at this point.

I just hope we don't extend him, and not because he's a bad guy, but this show is going to get worse at ages 35-37 where his game is the same, but his effectiveness at it is less.

Not sure why the bolded is necessarily true at all. He's the worst player on our team in +/- other than Torrey Craig who has played a lot worse. Zach is next worse lol. Obviously there are lots of reasons for that, but I don't find anything obvious about Demar's impact for us. I could EASILY see us playing better without him, and I'm among his biggest fans. Just like we played better when Zach went down.

[dougthonus]

Not sure why the bolded is necessarily true at all. He's the worst player on our team in +/- other than Torrey Craig who has played a lot worse. Zach is next worse lol. Obviously there are lots of reasons for that, but I don't find anything obvious about Demar's impact for us. I could EASILY see us playing better without him, and I'm among his biggest fans. Just like we played better when Zach went down.

+/- over his career as a Bull would show him to be the most impactful, the numbers this year are too small in sample size and have a few insane runs that will just decimate the guys on the floor who were there when they happened (which is also why the stat sucks in small sample sizes).

If you don't know why losing DeMar would kill the team not sure what to tell you, but we're really, really short on guys who can create shots in a pinch. It's why Zach, Vuc, and DeMar all take turns being the villain, because we don't have an elite shot maker, and whoever takes on that role immediately gets beat up for being only mediocre at it.

It might be true that DeMar has just fallen apart this year, and maybe all that past is gone. I certainly am with you that we can't continue to ride DeMar in this role into the future, but I think the team is immediately worse today if you trade him without bringing back talent. I'm okay with that, we have 1st round fodder upside anyway.

[League Circles]

Not sure why the bolded is necessarily true at all. He's the worst player on our team in +/- other than Torrey Craig who has played a lot worse. Zach is next worse lol. Obviously there are lots of reasons for that, but I don't find anything obvious about Demar's impact for us. I could EASILY see us playing better without him, and I'm among his biggest fans. Just like we played better when Zach went down.

+/- over his career as a Bull would show him to be the most impactful, the numbers this year are too small in sample size and have a few insane runs that will just decimate the guys on the floor who were there when they happened (which is also why the stat sucks in small sample sizes).

If you don't know why losing DeMar would kill the team not sure what to tell you, but we're really, really short on guys who can create shots in a pinch. It's why Zach, Vuc, and DeMar all take turns being the villain, because we don't have an elite shot maker, and whoever takes on that role immediately gets beat up for being only average to good at it.

Run a team where you rely on Coby White as your #1 and see how fast and how much you hate him and complain about his game.

Demar wasn't the best in either of the two previous years either, so not sure what you're saying.

Demar now shoots well under league average efficiency, and I think it's WAY below average eFG%, so when he's not getting bailed out by the refs he's killing us, especially considering his defense. I definitely think Coby would do better with more of his shots, and Caruso with more of his minutes. Not sure how this is debatable. It's not written in stone that the guys who take the most shots need to be bad at it. Demar is currently good at creating his own miss. He's 11th on the team in eFG%, behind everyone including even Vuc.

The problem isn't that he's pounding the ball, not passing, turning it over, etc. The problem is that he is missing shots, possibly because he's crossed a threshold of aging decline. This is what guys look like right before they fall off a cliff performance wise.

[Wingy]

We’re trying to trade the wrong guy.

DeMar’s defense is worse, his shooting is worse.

He does this 4th quarter thing even though he’s losing a step in front of our eyes. Despite his high IQ, he doesn’t seem to recognize this as a negative and detrimental to the team and the development of his teammates since it’s also the “offense” with the 2nd unit.

He’s 5.5 years older at 34, and needs a new contract that you know will be for at least 3 years.

What are we doing here???

[MikeDC]

I mean, most folks here really want to lose more games, so I guess trading the guy who keeps us from dropping through the floor is a reasonable means to lose more.

As far as Zach... I started watching at the end and what I saw was, as usual, he was a disaster when the game got tight. 3 terrible TOs in the last 4 minutes.

[sco]

IMO 3 things are going on with Demar:

First, in Zach's absence, he's been playing a ton of minutes.

Couple that with natural age related decline (i.e. less lift on jumpers, etc) his end-of-game efficiency is down a lot this season.

Lastly, refs have changed the way they are calling those fouls where the offensive player initiates contact, which has been Demar's calling card.

[dougthonus]

Demar wasn't the best in either of the two previous years either, so not sure what you're saying.

That's a pretty wild statement to make, so I'll just say the league disagrees with you, given he was all-NBA two years ago, and was our only all-star last year.

Demar now shoots well under league average efficiency, and I think it's WAY below average eFG%, so when he's not getting bailed out by the refs he's killing us, especially considering his defense. I definitely think Coby would do better with more of his shots, and Caruso with more of his minutes. Not sure how this is debatable. It's not written in stone that the guys who take the most shots need to be bad at it. Demar is currently good at creating his own miss. He's 11th on the team in eFG%, behind everyone including even Vuc.

DeMar is about equal to league average efficiency. eFG% is a completely worthless stat, so who cares. There are lots of better ways to measure efficiency, and he's about average this year, while taking the hardest shots. The last two years, he was well above that, in the same scenario. So agree that this year is bad, but I think the sample size is small enough and the history is good enough that I'm not necessarily throwing it out.

The problem isn't that he's pounding the ball, not passing, turning it over, etc. The problem is that he is missing shots, possibly because he's crossed a threshold of aging decline. This is what guys look like right before they fall off a cliff performance wise.

Definitely this year, that's a problem, but those other things are problems too. No one else is making shots on this team. DeRozan, Coby, and Zach have all been around the same range in TS%(a much better measure of efficiency than eFG%) all season. DeMar is currently 3rd in that group, but those are the only three guys who can create a shot against defensive pressure, and DeMar faces the most defensive pressure of those guys so has the hardest job and at other points in the season he was #1 there. They've still all jockeyed back and forth on who is best there this year.

I don't think the sample size is so large for me to hammer DeMar too hard on the efficiency thing, but it's definitely a poor year for him, and at his age, you're absolutely right that he may have fallen off the cliff already or teetering over it about to fall off tomorrow. I agree that I don't want him back for the future on a big contract (thrilled to have him on a small deal where he comes off the bench if that's an option though but doubt it is).

[dabig3]

This very reactionary board should be careful of what they wish for. Move DeMar and those defensive assignments put on Coby, Zach, and the rest of our wings will change as well. And not to our advantage.

Guys are going to be a lot less open on the average possession, with fewer bailouts. Coby is going to be targeted and we better hope Zach is on his like last night, and not off his like quite a few many nights.

If you're OK with that then cool. I'm OK with it cause it'll help the younger players grow without their crutch. And there will be growing pains.

But I don't see the point in being extra and saying DeMar can't play in a modern offense or that he's mostly a hinderance instead of an asset on the floor. Put down the 2K.

[RSP83]

Agree with the take that, the issue with Demar is aging/decline. He's doing the same thing he's been doing. It's just that he's clearly a step slower. Defenders beat him to his spot. His closing game is not as tight as it was. His handles get stripped a lot more these days. He's also been missing more free throws.

My bigger concern is with Billy for still leaning too much on Demar playing that role, especially in the 4th. It's now, to me, almost look like going to Demar has been Billy's way of cheating to win games. He just let Demar do his thing and it usually worked. But the wheels are starting to fall off this year, and Billy needs to cut down this approach.

Despite that I thought Demar made some positive changes to his game this year that's helping this team too. He shot more 3, and he took mostly good shots. I think he's been making them at a solid clip. He does try to find his open teammates more, try to move the ball more. Defensively I think he's been showing good effort.

Things go wrong more when he starts going full iso for long stretches. Problem is Billy trust him and never intervene.

[The Explorer]

I mentioned back in November that Derozan should be the point guard. He's a good facilitator and ball handler and is the best candidate to run play sets on the roster. Donovan needs to change his role from primary scorer to lead facilitator and you'll see the efficiency go up for Vucevic, Lavine, and White. There is no good reason why this shouldn't happen, other than Donovan not wanting to ruffle any feathers.

[drosestruts]

So you're telling me one of the most efficient small forwards in the league over the past two years isn't conducive to.... checks notes... an efficient offense?

The goal of offense is to score efficiently, DeMar does that, while commanding a lot of attention from opposing teams defenses.

LaVine also the past two years has posted elite efficiency.

Are other starts during this time - Ayo, Patrick Williams, and Vucevic did not have good efficiency and/or volume.

Maybe the problem wasn't DeMar, despite the timing of making this post after two bad games. Unfortunately 2 years of data suggests otherwrise.