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Charlesareed wrote:

League Circles wrote:I don't know enough about any of these guys to know if these are insane ideas for either the Bulls or the other team in question, but what about this summer we trade, in principle Vuc and Caruso (plus possibly more or less such as Terry, Phillips, Carter etc for one of these guys:

Julius Randle
Brook Lopez
John Collins
Clint Capela
Draymond Green



I basically looked up salaries next year in the range that would save us payroll if we traded Caruso and Vuc, and checked which 4/5s next year are making in the 20-30 mil range. I realize these guys aren't all the same caliber so idk maybe for a guy like Randle it would mean adding our pick, whereas for a guy like Draymond we'd maybe be getting something more back like GS's pick or something.

You can get any those guys without add caurso also vuc suck will cost a 1st to move him probably

So how would we get any of those guys without Caruso? I'd rather trade Caruso than a first of ours. And I'm not sure I'd want any of those guys if we're not moving Vuc.

League Circles wrote:

Charlesareed wrote:

League Circles wrote:I don't know enough about any of these guys to know if these are insane ideas for either the Bulls or the other team in question, but what about this summer we trade, in principle Vuc and Caruso (plus possibly more or less such as Terry, Phillips, Carter etc for one of these guys:

Julius Randle
Brook Lopez
John Collins
Clint Capela
Draymond Green



I basically looked up salaries next year in the range that would save us payroll if we traded Caruso and Vuc, and checked which 4/5s next year are making in the 20-30 mil range. I realize these guys aren't all the same caliber so idk maybe for a guy like Randle it would mean adding our pick, whereas for a guy like Draymond we'd maybe be getting something more back like GS's pick or something.

You can get any those guys without add caurso also vuc suck will cost a 1st to move him probably

So how would we get any of those guys without Caruso? I'd rather trade Caruso than a first of ours. And I'm not sure I'd want any of those guys if we're not moving Vuc.

You shouldn't want any of them regardless.

I would have offered Caruso to the Thunder for some of their picks.

Some Bulls fans act like Vucevic is so much worse than he is, lmao! How many teams have centers that have averaged 17 pts and 11 rebounds for the last three years, and 20 or more the years before that? Maybe 4, 5? There are plenty of teams with better PF's where Vucevic would look much better, like the Grizzlies. His shooting is down this year, he has not forgotten how to shoot a basketball. Don't think there's a single center not on a rookie contract making less than Vucevic and putting up his numbers. He's making 18.5 mill this year, what's the market value for a 7 footer putting up 17 and 11, AND is a great guy and hard worker. How much lower could his contract be, $12 mill? In today's market? If anybody thinks no team thinks Vucevic is an upgrade over their current center, that's just wrong.

It's easy to use TS% and defensive metrics to belittle Vucevic, but his raw numbers are damn impressive. His character and composure are impressive in today's NBA. I can guarantee if we trade Vuc for a player instead of picks, that player won't come close to his numbers. We'd be lucky to get back a 6'9 10 pts, 8 rebounds, maybe a block/game guy. But we'd be younger. Not like we have 10 players under 26 right now, we need to keep getting younger.

If Vucevic was on the block, he'd be gone now. He's better than most of these deadline trade guys, PJ Washington, Bogdanovic and those guys got picks back. Curious, what do people honestly think he would have gotten in free agency last year? Significantly less than 18 mill first year? He was averaging 18 and 11, 35% from three, on a team with two 20+ scorers. On a lot of other teams, Vuc would have been a 22+ scorer the whole time.

Infinity2152 wrote:Some Bulls fans act like Vucevic is so much worse than he is, lmao! How many teams have centers that have averaged 17 pts and 11 rebounds for the last three years, and 20 or more the years before that? Maybe 4, 5? There are plenty of teams with better PF's where Vucevic would look much better, like the Grizzlies. His shooting is down this year, he has not forgotten how to shoot a basketball. Don't think there's a single center not on a rookie contract making less than Vucevic and putting up his numbers. He's making 18.5 mill this year, what's the market value for a 7 footer putting up 17 and 11, AND is a great guy and hard worker. How much lower could his contract be, $12 mill? In today's market? If anybody thinks no team thinks Vucevic is an upgrade over their current center, that's just wrong.

It's easy to use TS% and defensive metrics to belittle Vucevic, but his raw numbers are damn impressive. His character and composure are impressive in today's NBA. I can guarantee if we trade Vuc for a player instead of picks, that player won't come close to his numbers. We'd be lucky to get back a 6'9 10 pts, 8 rebounds, maybe a block/game guy. But we'd be younger. Not like we have 10 players under 26 right now, we need to keep getting younger.

If Vucevic was on the block, he'd be gone now. He's better than most of these deadline trade guys, PJ Washington, Bogdanovic and those guys got picks back. Curious, what do people honestly think he would have gotten in free agency last year? Significantly less than 18 mill first year? He was averaging 18 and 11, 35% from three, on a team with two 20+ scorers. On a lot of other teams, Vuc would have been a 22+ scorer the whole time.

You have to look underneath the surface. He can’t post up any one his size. He doesn’t play physical at all and his shooting ability has diminished. Not to mention the whole team has to make up for his physical limitations on defense. He’s a below average starting center. There’s more to it than points and rebounds. Also he has very poor body language when things aren’t going his way.

I think there’d be a lot less complaining if we had a tall tough defensive PF on the team. Someone to complement Vuc’s skills and weaknesses. But we just don’t. I tend to agree that Vuc should be appreciated way more than he is on this board.

Seeing the Bleacher Report story that PHIL thought they had a deal for Drummond and that the Bulls were asking for 3 2nd round picks, which the 76ers have to trade, you've got to wonder what the hold up was.

More than likely it was the Bulls feeling stripped naked not having a backup center, made even worse by having Craig and Williams injured just before the deadline. They probably were looking at if there were centers available to trade for, or potentially being released. It appears someone like Nerlens Noel is one of the few centers out there as a FA, which makes you wonder what's up or down with him that nobody wants a guy who used to be pretty well thought of.

jump wrote:I think there’d be a lot less complaining if we had a tall tough defensive PF on the team. Someone to complement Vuc’s skills and weaknesses. But we just don’t. I tend to agree that Vuc should be appreciated way more than he is on this board.

I definitely think he'd look better with an ACTUAL defensive PF (kinda like Theis when we had him), but I still appreciate his aggravating ass nonetheless.

ChettheJet wrote:Seeing the Bleacher Report story that PHIL thought they had a deal for Drummond and that the Bulls were asking for 3 2nd round picks, which the 76ers have to trade, you've got to wonder what the hold up was.

More than likely it was the Bulls feeling stripped naked not having a backup center, made even worse by having Craig and Williams injured just before the deadline. They probably were looking at if there were centers available to trade for, or potentially being released. It appears someone like Nerlens Noel is one of the few centers out there as a FA, which makes you wonder what's up or down with him that nobody wants a guy who used to be pretty well thought of.

I fault AKME for building a roster with undersized 4s.

Infinity2152 wrote:Some Bulls fans act like Vucevic is so much worse than he is, lmao! How many teams have centers that have averaged 17 pts and 11 rebounds for the last three years, and 20 or more the years before that? Maybe 4, 5? There are plenty of teams with better PF's where Vucevic would look much better, like the Grizzlies. His shooting is down this year, he has not forgotten how to shoot a basketball. Don't think there's a single center not on a rookie contract making less than Vucevic and putting up his numbers. He's making 18.5 mill this year, what's the market value for a 7 footer putting up 17 and 11, AND is a great guy and hard worker. How much lower could his contract be, $12 mill? In today's market? If anybody thinks no team thinks Vucevic is an upgrade over their current center, that's just wrong.

It's easy to use TS% and defensive metrics to belittle Vucevic, but his raw numbers are damn impressive. His character and composure are impressive in today's NBA. I can guarantee if we trade Vuc for a player instead of picks, that player won't come close to his numbers. We'd be lucky to get back a 6'9 10 pts, 8 rebounds, maybe a block/game guy. But we'd be younger. Not like we have 10 players under 26 right now, we need to keep getting younger.

If Vucevic was on the block, he'd be gone now. He's better than most of these deadline trade guys, PJ Washington, Bogdanovic and those guys got picks back. Curious, what do people honestly think he would have gotten in free agency last year? Significantly less than 18 mill first year? He was averaging 18 and 11, 35% from three, on a team with two 20+ scorers. On a lot of other teams, Vuc would have been a 22+ scorer the whole time.

I hope there is some GM out there that feels the same as you and makes a decent offer. Vuc is improving this season but it ain’t by much.

Hangtime84 wrote:

Infinity2152 wrote:Some Bulls fans act like Vucevic is so much worse than he is, lmao! How many teams have centers that have averaged 17 pts and 11 rebounds for the last three years, and 20 or more the years before that? Maybe 4, 5? There are plenty of teams with better PF's where Vucevic would look much better, like the Grizzlies. His shooting is down this year, he has not forgotten how to shoot a basketball. Don't think there's a single center not on a rookie contract making less than Vucevic and putting up his numbers. He's making 18.5 mill this year, what's the market value for a 7 footer putting up 17 and 11, AND is a great guy and hard worker. How much lower could his contract be, $12 mill? In today's market? If anybody thinks no team thinks Vucevic is an upgrade over their current center, that's just wrong.

It's easy to use TS% and defensive metrics to belittle Vucevic, but his raw numbers are damn impressive. His character and composure are impressive in today's NBA. I can guarantee if we trade Vuc for a player instead of picks, that player won't come close to his numbers. We'd be lucky to get back a 6'9 10 pts, 8 rebounds, maybe a block/game guy. But we'd be younger. Not like we have 10 players under 26 right now, we need to keep getting younger.

If Vucevic was on the block, he'd be gone now. He's better than most of these deadline trade guys, PJ Washington, Bogdanovic and those guys got picks back. Curious, what do people honestly think he would have gotten in free agency last year? Significantly less than 18 mill first year? He was averaging 18 and 11, 35% from three, on a team with two 20+ scorers. On a lot of other teams, Vuc would have been a 22+ scorer the whole time.

I hope there is some GM out there that feels the same as you and makes a decent offer. Vuc is improving this season but it ain’t by much.

I get both POV's. Where I come down is that regardless of his offensive ability (more on that in a second), IMO the NBA has largely moved to structure whereby the C position has, with a few exceptions, transitioned to place where most teams choose to put their best defender/5th option offensive player. IMO, the main reasons for this is that the good rim protectors are impactful enough on shots in the paint, that guards can do a better job of guarding 3's (we can't do this with Vuc and our 3pt defense suffers for it), coupled with the NBA salary constrained math, where good rim protectors can be had in the MLE range. Back to Vuc's offense, his numbers can be bifurcated (not by me because I couldn't find the data, but by someone smarter and more capable) into his ability to score against subpar defenders and against above average defenders, and by my eye test the difference is pretty big. When adequately defended, Vuc stops looking at the basket before shooting and rushing his shots resulting in a high % of missed bunnies. When he has time and isn't worried about being blocked, he's very good.

So what to do about him? If we have the ability to rid ourselves of enough salary, such that using an asset to dump Vuc such that we could bring back a MAX guy and be under the cap, then I'm in favor. Otherwise, I would do what I could to keep AD and just swap Vuc's minutes to be mainly against bench guys and bad defender starters.

ChiefILL53 wrote:

jump wrote:I think there’d be a lot less complaining if we had a tall tough defensive PF on the team. Someone to complement Vuc’s skills and weaknesses. But we just don’t. I tend to agree that Vuc should be appreciated way more than he is on this board.

I definitely think he'd look better with an ACTUAL defensive PF (kinda like Theis when we had him), but I still appreciate his aggravating ass nonetheless.

ChettheJet wrote:Seeing the Bleacher Report story that PHIL thought they had a deal for Drummond and that the Bulls were asking for 3 2nd round picks, which the 76ers have to trade, you've got to wonder what the hold up was.

More than likely it was the Bulls feeling stripped naked not having a backup center, made even worse by having Craig and Williams injured just before the deadline. They probably were looking at if there were centers available to trade for, or potentially being released. It appears someone like Nerlens Noel is one of the few centers out there as a FA, which makes you wonder what's up or down with him that nobody wants a guy who used to be pretty well thought of.

I fault AKME for building a roster with undersized 4s.

He played with actual bigger 4s in Orlando and it wasn’t a huge difference. He’s just not impactful as a player.

PJSteven22 wrote:

ChiefILL53 wrote:

jump wrote:I think there’d be a lot less complaining if we had a tall tough defensive PF on the team. Someone to complement Vuc’s skills and weaknesses. But we just don’t. I tend to agree that Vuc should be appreciated way more than he is on this board.

I definitely think he'd look better with an ACTUAL defensive PF (kinda like Theis when we had him), but I still appreciate his aggravating ass nonetheless.

ChettheJet wrote:Seeing the Bleacher Report story that PHIL thought they had a deal for Drummond and that the Bulls were asking for 3 2nd round picks, which the 76ers have to trade, you've got to wonder what the hold up was.

More than likely it was the Bulls feeling stripped naked not having a backup center, made even worse by having Craig and Williams injured just before the deadline. They probably were looking at if there were centers available to trade for, or potentially being released. It appears someone like Nerlens Noel is one of the few centers out there as a FA, which makes you wonder what's up or down with him that nobody wants a guy who used to be pretty well thought of.

I fault AKME for building a roster with undersized 4s.

He played with actual bigger 4s in Orlando and it wasn’t a huge difference. He’s just not impactful as a player.

What did AK see in him?

I just looked his stats up. Was AK impressed that Orlando finished in 8th place the year before the Bulls traded for him? Then 7th the year before that.

He put up good stats against Milwaukee in the playoffs in 2019-20, but I have no idea what kind of impact he really had (they lost the series 4-1).

ChettheJet wrote:Seeing the Bleacher Report story that PHIL thought they had a deal for Drummond and that the Bulls were asking for 3 2nd round picks, which the 76ers have to trade, you've got to wonder what the hold up was.

More than likely it was the Bulls feeling stripped naked not having a backup center, made even worse by having Craig and Williams injured just before the deadline. They probably were looking at if there were centers available to trade for, or potentially being released. It appears someone like Nerlens Noel is one of the few centers out there as a FA, which makes you wonder what's up or down with him that nobody wants a guy who used to be pretty well thought of.

Have you looked at the 2nd round picks the 76ers have?

2024 NYK 2nd - likely to be late 50's at this point. Basically the same as an undrafted player.

2027 2nd

2028 2nd

multiple 2029 2nds

Wow PAW getting season ending foot surgery

Anybody think we could pull off these trades in the summer for youth and strength? I think this would be an excellent new big three!

erlim wrote:Anybody think we could pull off these trades in the summer for youth and strength? I think this would be an excellent new big three!

Those may actually be possible, and the reason they may be possible is that those may be the a few of the only guys/contracts that could make this team worse. I came into this year feeling good about all 3 of those guys, but Simmons is less durable than Zach, which is saying something. Poole is living proof of the GS halo effect. I'm a UofM fan, but this guy is just a chucker. Ayton is offensively capable, but is another Vuc on defense. Paying C's who don't defend should be illegal.

I would do the POR deal to get off Ayton, move Caruso for draft assets and keep Vooch. He could start until we draft his replacement.

JRoy wrote:I would do the POR deal to get off Ayton, move Caruso for draft assets and keep Vooch. He could start until we draft his replacement.

Good thing the Bulls won't do that trade.

Dan Z wrote:

JRoy wrote:I would do the POR deal to get off Ayton, move Caruso for draft assets and keep Vooch. He could start until we draft his replacement.

Good thing the Bulls won't do that trade.

Fair enough.

Ayton is talented but awful in spite of that talent.

JRoy wrote:

Dan Z wrote:

JRoy wrote:I would do the POR deal to get off Ayton, move Caruso for draft assets and keep Vooch. He could start until we draft his replacement.

Good thing the Bulls won't do that trade.

Fair enough.

Ayton is talented but awful in spite of that talent.

It's also the money. Right now the Bulls can't afford to spend 14-15 million more per year for a center.