How Bad are AKME?

[Dan Z]

He got his start as a scout with the Bullets.

Okay, that makes more sense.

It was there he met Phil Jackson. He wanted the Bullets to draft him but they didnt.

Phil was an okay player, so I'm not sure what that says about Krause's ability to scout talent. I doubt that in 1967 Jerry thought Phil would some day make a great coach (even though the connection ultimately worked out).

[prolific passer]

Okay, that makes more sense.

It was there he met Phil Jackson. He wanted the Bullets to draft him but they didnt.

Phil was an okay player, so I'm not sure what that says about Krause's ability to scout talent. I doubt that in 1967 Jerry thought Phil would some day make a great coach (even though the connection ultimately worked out).

I believe Krause was also part of the bulls during the 76 draft and suggested they should draft Parish. They didn't like that and fired him. I mean they had Gilmore coming in so it didn't make much sense. They drafted Scott May I think and passed up on Adrian Dantley or Alex English. Could have had both really but also could have went Dantley and Dennis Johnson or English and Dennis Johnson with their first 2 picks to team up with Gilmore.

[Dan Z]

It was there he met Phil Jackson. He wanted the Bullets to draft him but they didnt.

Phil was an okay player, so I'm not sure what that says about Krause's ability to scout talent. I doubt that in 1967 Jerry thought Phil would some day make a great coach (even though the connection ultimately worked out).

I believe Krause was also part of the bulls during the 76 draft and suggested they should draft Parish. They didn't like that and fired him. I mean they had Gilmore coming in so it didn't make much sense. They drafted Scott May I think and passed up on Adrian Dantley or Alex English. Could have had both really but also could have went Dantley and Dennis Johnson or English and Dennis Johnson with their first 2 picks to team up with Gilmore.

Reinsdorf bought the Bulls in 1985. Do you think he knew much about Krause in regards to the 1976 draft? Maybe someone on staff told him? Or Krause mentioned it in an interview?

Adrian Dantley, Artis Gilmore, Dennis Johnson, Bob Love and Norm Van Lier would've been an interesting team.

[prolific passer]

Phil was an okay player, so I'm not sure what that says about Krause's ability to scout talent. I doubt that in 1967 Jerry thought Phil would some day make a great coach (even though the connection ultimately worked out).

I believe Krause was also part of the bulls during the 76 draft and suggested they should draft Parish. They didn't like that and fired him. I mean they had Gilmore coming in so it didn't make much sense. They drafted Scott May I think and passed up on Adrian Dantley or Alex English. Could have had both really but also could have went Dantley and Dennis Johnson or English and Dennis Johnson with their first 2 picks to team up with Gilmore.

Reinsdorf bought the Bulls in 1985. Do you think he knew much about Krause in regards to the 1976 draft? Maybe someone on staff told him? Or Krause mentioned it in an interview?

Adrian Dantley, Artis Gilmore, Dennis Johnson, Bob Love and Norm Van Lier would've been an interesting team.

I think Reinsdorf knew Krause personally and put friendship above business and trusted Krause too much because of it.

[Jcool0]

Okay, that makes more sense.

It was there he met Phil Jackson. He wanted the Bullets to draft him but they didnt.

Phil was an okay player, so I'm not sure what that says about Krause's ability to scout talent. I doubt that in 1967 Jerry thought Phil would some day make a great coach (even though the connection ultimately worked out).

He played 10 years in NY was a key contributor to there '73 title team (sixth man award didn't exsist then) and was also on the all rookie first team. So probably better then the 2nd round pick the Bullets made.

[Dan Z]

I was thinking about the pick that Portland owes Chicago...how is is that AK didn't get less protections on it? I know that Markkanen's value wasn't what it is today, but at that time he was a young player who showed potential. Couldn't he at least get a mid to late first round pick for him?

I don't count DDJ because I never thought he was anything other than a role player.

[Muzbar]

I was thinking about the pick that Portland owes Chicago...how is is that AK didn't get less protections on it? I know that Markkanen's value wasn't what it is today, but at that time he was a young player who showed potential. Couldn't he at least get a mid to late first round pick for him?

I don't count DDJ because I never thought he was anything other than a role player.

Or at least have the protections get less over time, i.e., top 14 then top 12, top 10 etc, etc...

Chicago will never see that pick.

[Dan Z]

I was thinking about the pick that Portland owes Chicago...how is is that AK didn't get less protections on it? I know that Markkanen's value wasn't what it is today, but at that time he was a young player who showed potential. Couldn't he at least get a mid to late first round pick for him?

I don't count DDJ because I never thought he was anything other than a role player.

Or at least have the protections get less over time, i.e., top 14 then top 12, top 10 etc, etc...

Chicago will never see that pick.

Exactly, but I'd even go one step further...if it's not going to convey for years then make sure that at some point it has to (meaning unprotected or very limited protection like top 2).

I'm sure they thought it might convey because Portland was an okay team with Lillard, but you can't make deals based on that. Make sure things are definite. Keep in mind all the possible outcomes.

Right now it's a pick that's basically meaningless for the Bulls.

[Muzbar]

Portland are somewhat in a bind themselves in that they can't trade any future pick until this pick either conveys or finishes its protection in 2028. Not that they are in a rush considering they are rebuilding.

But of they'd like to work out a deal to extinguish those protections this might be the draft for then to do it, they own the Warriors pick in this draft (14th), I'd try to work out a deal to acquire that pick for the return of their own pick.

Bulls then have 2 middling picks to either grab to prospects, or move up for someone they may like (Buzelis) or use one to trade back for some later picks.

[Benedict Miller]

John Paxson was a much better GM for the Bulls

[prolific passer]

John Paxson was a much better GM for the Bulls

True but Pax couldn't handle failure as the bulls GM. Messed up really 1 time and just refuses to try to correct it.

[dougthonus]

True but Pax couldn't handle failure as the bulls GM. Messed up really 1 time and just refuses to try to correct it.

I think Pax was above average as a GM, but my view of GMs may also be somewhat unusual. I think most team building is actually based on luck in the NBA, and then a lot of what a GM does or doesn't do is also based on ownership mandate / direction, and I judge a GM mainly based not on the team success as a whole, but in the quality of the moves they make relative to the moves available within the constraints provided.

That said:
1: Feels like he messed up a lot more than once
2: Had a pretty good history of addressing his mistakes

[MrSparkle]

Well we've had the Pax debate ad nauseum. On a bright note, the 04/05, 06/07 and post-deadline 08/09 teams were some of my favorite to watch. He did have some bad luck with Deng broken wrist. He was having a nice rookie season. Curry's heart was a bummer on the season, but the Isiah trade was a GM's dream. I think Pax was leaning towards moving on from Eddy regardless (just like Jamal, and eventually Tyson - not his type).

My hunch is that if he could take it back, he'd obviously pick Aldridge and keep Chandler over dumping him and signing Wallace - he did own up to those mistakes, rather quickly. The crazy thing, is that I'm not sure Arturas could admit how bad the Vuc trade was(/is). He doesn't seem to acknowledge how difficult his job is right now, due to that bad trade.

The hard thing about judging Pax is the line is blurred as to how much influence he had, once Gar took the GM position.

I thought hiring VDN was bizarre. The choke episode was sketchy. I actually didn't think that having a "hands-off" coach was a bad thing, as whatever happened, happened -- Rose developed into a superstar in his rookie season.

Anyway, Chicago Bulls really have had bad luck, regardless of who has been in charge. Yes, they hurt their odds in some critical drafts (particularly Lebron/Wade/Melo/Bosh, strange decision by Krause - and Luka year of course), but overall, odds are odds. Bulls keep missing the generational #1s, or getting season-ending injuries (with no recovery) to promising top-10 picks or prized FAs.

AK made his job much harder by sending so many twenty year olds out the door, and he's been increasingly reliant on washed veterans. The hit rate with the young players is looking abysmal. He had one "outside-the-box" summer, but otherwise, the moves seem like they're asking ChatGPT what to do (with some dated data).. incl. hiring Billy. Continuity is fine for developing prospects, but it's very costly running back a net-negative veteran group, as their values decline by the year.

[prolific passer]

True but Pax couldn't handle failure as the bulls GM. Messed up really 1 time and just refuses to try to correct it.

I think Pax was above average as a GM, but my view of GMs may also be somewhat unusual. I think most team building is actually based on luck in the NBA, and then a lot of what a GM does or doesn't do is also based on ownership mandate / direction, and I judge a GM mainly based not on the team success as a whole, but in the quality of the moves they make relative to the moves available within the constraints provided.

That said:
1: Feels like he messed up a lot more than once
2: Had a pretty good history of addressing his mistakes

I read that the reason he made the no headband rule was just because he hated Eddie Robinson. Thought that was pretty funny.

I get Pax made quite a few mistakes but the Aldridge and Chandler one really stands out. He probably could have fixed that if he really wanted to though.

Also you're right about needing some luck. He had good luck with most of his picks but bad luck with other moves it seems.

[MrSparkle]

AK’s checklist:

1. Shortest height in the league: check

2. Least athletic team in the league: check

3. Least 3P shooting in the league: check

4. Worst rim protector in the league: check

5. Least passing skills in the league: check

AK turned on NBA Live 2001, turned the difficulty up to Super Star and launched the team.

3y in a row of this was a masochistic choice. What lies ahead is unexciting. I’m very anti tank building, but we must essentially plan to tank the next 2 years.

It will be an expected quite dull ride if AK takes vets for Zach, keeps Vuc, Caruso and Demar.

I’m salivating to see what his idea of a radical change is, this summer. Julian Randle or McCollum here we go!

Team needs:
Playmaking
3D
Rim protection
Superstar (duh)

Everything, except a short defensive guard who can’t score at an elite level, or a big man who can’t defend or shoot well.

[Ugly Duckling]

I saw most the logic in their moves; seemed like mostly smart moves. Vuc in short hindsight was very bad.

The Vuc trade was a disaster in every related way. Amazing how 1 strike actually turned into 3 strikes (permanent defensive liability that the coach must plan around, decision to dump Lauri/Thad/Wendell/Gafford, giving up Franz and another) but if there’s one thing that bothers me… it’s that Vuc’s still the starting C, going into season #4. He’s woefully inadequate and should be a 6th man or traded for peanuts; move on from this colossal mistake. At this point, the only trade return you’re getting is a lucky break — aka, might as well be another great MLE signing like Caruso.

Little moves… I mean, I see the value in a P-Bev, Goran… didn’t want to see Jevon pursued, but even then, there’s value from a locker-room/mentorship angle. Whatever Coby took away from them was a plus, and they cost very little.

But it was mostly concerning that all these years into the mess, they actually thought Jevon was going to be the better version of P-Bev we needed to off-set Lonzo. OK- maybe they didn’t think that. But if not, then why in god’s name didn’t they pursue a forward who could shoot? Or a rim protector?

The athleticism and length of this team is bottom-5. It’s like worst of the GarPax builds, all over again. I’m actually stunned we’re here again. Undersized and/or a step slow to league average at every single position on the floor. And poor at shooting, too? Why are they tripling down on the exact type of lame roster we struggled to get out the 1st rd with, for 20 years? What happened to whatever AK was involved with in Denver?

It’s actually mind-boggling when you think about it. It’s like Arturas watched tape of the 2006 Bulls, and decided he wants to rebuild that.

Anyway, kinda getting to the end-game here. The chess board is down to a few pawns and bishops. I’m pretty down on what Zach will fetch. A cheap Pat resign at best means we secure an improving 10 PER single digit prospect to a short extension (like Coby), at worst, he never pans out into top-4 pick potential. Coby’s improvement is great and all, but he still has ways to go. Despite AK saying Phillips will contribute… surprise… Billy has him at under 99 minutes for the season, with a promising 34% TS and 3.2 PER (warning low sample size).

Sigh… I want my cake (Caruso and Demar help win games) and I want to eat it too (prospects develop), like Miami, but they just don’t seem to be connecting on any hits.

man this is so painful to relive. i mean after everything we had to go through to get lauri in terms giving up jimmy, taking on kriss dunn. i mean i admit i was losing faith in him as well, but you don't get rid of a player like that prematurely. he was outplaying tatum their rookie yr and hit the most 3's ever for a rookie before his mysterious decline. of course hindsight is 20/20 and i didn't expect him to become this good, but still.

i give them a d because they couldn't have predicted lonzo's injury. had he been healthy, we would've been a different team. not a contender, but at least a competitor.

the caruso signing was great and the derozan one wasn't terrible (could've been good if we had the right pieces around him).

but what about patrick williams? arturas reached for him with the 4th overall pick when he was projected to go at the end of the first. he could've traded down for him at the very least if he was so high on him. and he reached down for the wrong guy. he could've gotten hali or maxey with that pick. i feel like he def didn't mastermind the joker 2nd rd pick. either someone else in the nuggets fo was responsible or he fluked into it.

i hate to say this, but garpax was better

[dukeespn]

AK’s checklist:

1. Shortest height in the league: check

2. Least athletic team in the league: check

3. Least 3P shooting in the league: check

4. Worst rim protector in the league: check

5. Least passing skills in the league: check

AK turned on NBA Live 2001, turned the difficulty up to Super Star and launched the team.

3y in a row of this was a masochistic choice. What lies ahead is unexciting. I’m very anti tank building, but we must essentially plan to tank the next 2 years.

It will be an expected quite dull ride if AK takes vets for Zach, keeps Vuc, Caruso and Demar.

I’m salivating to see what his idea of a radical change is, this summer. Julian Randle or McCollum here we go!

Team needs:
Playmaking
3D
Rim protection
Superstar (duh)

Everything, except a short defensive guard who can’t score at an elite level, or a big man who can’t defend or shoot well.

The report that AK already offered Demar 2/80M recently is the very reason why the Bulls fans should believe he would do his things AGAIN this offseason.

To make the team the most mediocre in the league while you trade away future assets and miss the opportunity to sell vets high. His basketball mind is a total disaster and every single Bulls fan should know that at this point.