Ayo Dosunmu has leveled up

[FriedRise]

I'm trying to think of a player comparison for him for a similar archetype of player. The one that I have in my mind is jrue holiday lite BUT ayo doesn't have the opportunity to run the offense, ayos efficiency is better but much worse defense.

Caruso? But he's a much better defender and a much worse offensive player


Who is a rim driver, hits 3s, can move the ball but isn't a floor general, play defense but isn't game changing (caruso)? No names are popping up in my head.

Josh Richardson

[TheJordanRule]

I did. Where did you even come from? I did mention that FVV is a really good defender but that went over your head. Here’s some advice work on your reading comprehension skills.

**** hell you are tiresome.

You haven’t added anything relevant to the topic. Maybe you should look into the mirror. Anyways Ayo has been playing well this year.

No, you do come off as tiresome because you can't accept that Perkins acknowledged your random stat fun fact and has refocused on what this thread is supposed to be about: Ayo. Create your own OT: Fun Facts About Fred Van Vleet thread on here if you want people to talk about this stuff. Seeing how this is a board for Bulls fans, I don't know why you think the Fred fun facts would be a great topic. IDK how many people would care about that.

[PaKii94]

I'm trying to think of a player comparison for him for a similar archetype of player. The one that I have in my mind is jrue holiday lite BUT ayo doesn't have the opportunity to run the offense, ayos efficiency is better but much worse defense.

Caruso? But he's a much better defender and a much worse offensive player


Who is a rim driver, hits 3s, can move the ball but isn't a floor general, play defense but isn't game changing (caruso)? No names are popping up in my head.

I see some Dumars in his game, personally.

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

No doubt in my mind this guy is going to max out whatever his potential is. I think he has a good shot at becoming a consistent 15 and 5 guy.

Didn't watch dumars. Got any specific highlights that show Ayo like traits?

I'm trying to think of a player comparison for him for a similar archetype of player. The one that I have in my mind is jrue holiday lite BUT ayo doesn't have the opportunity to run the offense, ayos efficiency is better but much worse defense.

Caruso? But he's a much better defender and a much worse offensive player


Who is a rim driver, hits 3s, can move the ball but isn't a floor general, play defense but isn't game changing (caruso)? No names are popping up in my head.

I think Leandro Barbosa is the best comparison I've seen so far. Big, long point guard who's very athletic in a straight line but doesn't change speeds well in the half-court. Strong defensively and decent floor general but not spectacular in that area. Solid rotation player that can play in good 5 man lineups in the playoffs but not a core player.

He’s nothing like Barbosa. Barbosa was a mediocre defender and a streaky scorer. Also Ayo is bigger than Barbosa. He reminds me of Dejounte Murray/E’Twuan Moore hybrid.

Yeah Barbosa in my head was a smaller 6th man scorer type. I didn't watch him much but never associated him with defense.

Moore is close but that's the more generic 3/d guard player. I think Ayo is already surpassed that.

Murray is also close but Ayo's offense is more efficient and his shot is looking better. Also when I looked into Murray apparently his defense is overrated (like Kris dunn when he played for the bulls).

But a better shooting Murray seems like an apt comparison. That's a high level player then.

I think Ayo is not the same player as Jimmy Butler, but I see his career going on a similar trajectory as Butlers. I think Ayo has the same work ethic as Jimmy. In year 3 Jimmy got a massive boost in usage and then year 4 he exploded. I think Ayo may be on a similar path. I don't think he will be an all-star, though I do think it is possible (10% probability).

Just saw this after my post in response to Duck. Dude has that legendary work-ethic.

I agree on the work ethic part. That's what attracted me to Jimmy and also Ayo that rookie season. Thing is I don't think Jimmy is a good comparison because Ayo doesn't have a knack for drawing FT and he is also not ultra low turnover (Jimmy's two elite killer traits why he's always a positive). Also Jimmy's defense was another level while he was developing (one of the best at guarding prime LeBron for 48 mins straight)

The fact that we've got two young and upcoming guards in Coby and Ayo is one of the few bright spots of this season. I don't know what kind of ceiling I would put on Ayo, but I know at minimum he's a solid starter/great bench piece, but he'll almost certainly never be an all-star barring an unforeseen Coby-esque jump.

Maybe something like Kirk Hinrich as his ceiling. Though his defense isn't at Kirk's level and probably never will be, his offense will likely be a bit better. But numbers-wise Kirk was like a 15 and 6 guy in his prime and I can see that being a reasonable ceiling for Ayo, perhaps even a little higher.

Even after seeing this mini-upswing this season, I would be thrilled if Ayo became prime Kirk Hinrich. IIRC (which may be wrong) but isn't Kirk the Bulls 2nd all-time 3pt baskets maker (which I find more of a negative on the Bulls than a positive for Kirk).

From a team composition perspective, being able to have a good defender at the 2 spot next season if we are trotting DDR at the 3 next season is a great thing. Although I fully expect Zach back for at least half of next season.

Idk about Kirk comparison. Kirk was a more floor general, good shooter, and positioning defense. Ayo is more of a length defender.

I'm trying to think of a player comparison for him for a similar archetype of player. The one that I have in my mind is jrue holiday lite BUT ayo doesn't have the opportunity to run the offense, ayos efficiency is better but much worse defense.

Caruso? But he's a much better defender and a much worse offensive player


Who is a rim driver, hits 3s, can move the ball but isn't a floor general, play defense but isn't game changing (caruso)? No names are popping up in my head.

Bruce Brown? His 3pt percentage is down but he was 36% and 40% in the previous two seasons.

Does Bruce Brown have any playmaking chops? I think Ayo could be a PG but he doesn't have the opportunity right now.

I'm trying to think of a player comparison for him for a similar archetype of player. The one that I have in my mind is jrue holiday lite BUT ayo doesn't have the opportunity to run the offense, ayos efficiency is better but much worse defense.

Caruso? But he's a much better defender and a much worse offensive player


Who is a rim driver, hits 3s, can move the ball but isn't a floor general, play defense but isn't game changing (caruso)? No names are popping up in my head.

Gary Harris?

Eh he's a generic 3/d. Ayo is better already

I'm trying to think of a player comparison for him for a similar archetype of player. The one that I have in my mind is jrue holiday lite BUT ayo doesn't have the opportunity to run the offense, ayos efficiency is better but much worse defense.

Caruso? But he's a much better defender and a much worse offensive player


Who is a rim driver, hits 3s, can move the ball but isn't a floor general, play defense but isn't game changing (caruso)? No names are popping up in my head.

Josh Richardson

Generic 3/d. I think Ayo has more potential and is already more of a playmaker.


The comparison in my mind for Ayo is tough because I believe he is more than just a 3/d guy. I think he has good playmaking chops and I think once DDR is gone his midrange game should expand more.

I still think Jrue Holiday in my mind

Jrue with better shooting, better midrange, worse defense, less opportunity to run the offense. Like Jrue I think he can provide a bit of everything and just help the team WIN without needing heavy usage in a particular thing.

[sco]

I'm trying to think of a player comparison for him for a similar archetype of player. The one that I have in my mind is jrue holiday lite BUT ayo doesn't have the opportunity to run the offense, ayos efficiency is better but much worse defense.

Caruso? But he's a much better defender and a much worse offensive player


Who is a rim driver, hits 3s, can move the ball but isn't a floor general, play defense but isn't game changing (caruso)? No names are popping up in my head.

I see some Dumars in his game, personally.

Watch on YouTube

Read on Twitter

No doubt in my mind this guy is going to max out whatever his potential is. I think he has a good shot at becoming a consistent 15 and 5 guy.

Didn't watch dumars. Got any specific highlights that show Ayo like traits?

I think Leandro Barbosa is the best comparison I've seen so far. Big, long point guard who's very athletic in a straight line but doesn't change speeds well in the half-court. Strong defensively and decent floor general but not spectacular in that area. Solid rotation player that can play in good 5 man lineups in the playoffs but not a core player.

He’s nothing like Barbosa. Barbosa was a mediocre defender and a streaky scorer. Also Ayo is bigger than Barbosa. He reminds me of Dejounte Murray/E’Twuan Moore hybrid.

Yeah Barbosa in my head was a smaller 6th man scorer type. I didn't watch him much but never associated him with defense.

Moore is close but that's the more generic 3/d guard player. I think Ayo is already surpassed that.

Murray is also close but Ayo's offense is more efficient and his shot is looking better. Also when I looked into Murray apparently his defense is overrated (like Kris dunn when he played for the bulls).

But a better shooting Murray seems like an apt comparison. That's a high level player then.

I think Ayo is not the same player as Jimmy Butler, but I see his career going on a similar trajectory as Butlers. I think Ayo has the same work ethic as Jimmy. In year 3 Jimmy got a massive boost in usage and then year 4 he exploded. I think Ayo may be on a similar path. I don't think he will be an all-star, though I do think it is possible (10% probability).

Just saw this after my post in response to Duck. Dude has that legendary work-ethic.

I agree on the work ethic part. That's what attracted me to Jimmy and also Ayo that rookie season. Thing is I don't think Jimmy is a good comparison because Ayo doesn't have a knack for drawing FT and he is also not ultra low turnover (Jimmy's two elite killer traits why he's always a positive). Also Jimmy's defense was another level while he was developing (one of the best at guarding prime LeBron for 48 mins straight)

The fact that we've got two young and upcoming guards in Coby and Ayo is one of the few bright spots of this season. I don't know what kind of ceiling I would put on Ayo, but I know at minimum he's a solid starter/great bench piece, but he'll almost certainly never be an all-star barring an unforeseen Coby-esque jump.

Maybe something like Kirk Hinrich as his ceiling. Though his defense isn't at Kirk's level and probably never will be, his offense will likely be a bit better. But numbers-wise Kirk was like a 15 and 6 guy in his prime and I can see that being a reasonable ceiling for Ayo, perhaps even a little higher.

Even after seeing this mini-upswing this season, I would be thrilled if Ayo became prime Kirk Hinrich. IIRC (which may be wrong) but isn't Kirk the Bulls 2nd all-time 3pt baskets maker (which I find more of a negative on the Bulls than a positive for Kirk).

From a team composition perspective, being able to have a good defender at the 2 spot next season if we are trotting DDR at the 3 next season is a great thing. Although I fully expect Zach back for at least half of next season.

Idk about Kirk comparison. Kirk was a more floor general, good shooter, and positioning defense. Ayo is more of a length defender.

I'm trying to think of a player comparison for him for a similar archetype of player. The one that I have in my mind is jrue holiday lite BUT ayo doesn't have the opportunity to run the offense, ayos efficiency is better but much worse defense.

Caruso? But he's a much better defender and a much worse offensive player


Who is a rim driver, hits 3s, can move the ball but isn't a floor general, play defense but isn't game changing (caruso)? No names are popping up in my head.

Bruce Brown? His 3pt percentage is down but he was 36% and 40% in the previous two seasons.

Does Bruce Brown have any playmaking chops? I think Ayo could be a PG but he doesn't have the opportunity right now.

I'm trying to think of a player comparison for him for a similar archetype of player. The one that I have in my mind is jrue holiday lite BUT ayo doesn't have the opportunity to run the offense, ayos efficiency is better but much worse defense.

Caruso? But he's a much better defender and a much worse offensive player


Who is a rim driver, hits 3s, can move the ball but isn't a floor general, play defense but isn't game changing (caruso)? No names are popping up in my head.

Gary Harris?

Eh he's a generic 3/d. Ayo is better already

I'm trying to think of a player comparison for him for a similar archetype of player. The one that I have in my mind is jrue holiday lite BUT ayo doesn't have the opportunity to run the offense, ayos efficiency is better but much worse defense.

Caruso? But he's a much better defender and a much worse offensive player


Who is a rim driver, hits 3s, can move the ball but isn't a floor general, play defense but isn't game changing (caruso)? No names are popping up in my head.

Josh Richardson

Generic 3/d. I think Ayo has more potential and is already more of a playmaker.


The comparison in my mind for Ayo is tough because I believe he is more than just a 3/d guy. I think he has good playmaking chops and I think once DDR is gone his midrange game should expand more.

I still think Jrue Holiday in my mind

Jrue with better shooting, better midrange, worse defense, less opportunity to run the offense. Like Jrue I think he can provide a bit of everything and just help the team WIN without needing heavy usage in a particular thing.

I feel like this is a bit too rosy Pakii, but you fought me on the infamous Lauri debates and I was wrong there, so I hope you are right this time too.

[HomoSapien]

Didn't watch dumars. Got any specific highlights that show Ayo like traits?

To me, their similarities are:

- Both combo guards, similar sizes/weights.
- Both two-way players, though Dumars was better both defensively and offensively. Stylistically, they're both low-stance defenders and smart team defenders who position themselves well even off the ball.
- Similar temperaments. Dumars was very poised, and Ayo rarely gets rattled or overly emotional.
- Both are great at the catch-and-shoot three's.
- Both finish strong at the rim.
- Both were crafty offensive players which made up for their lack of hops. They both use a lot of herky-jerky movements, stop on a dime shots to catch their defender off-balance.

The biggest differences are:

- Dumars at his best was a top-2 level player on a contender. Ayo is nowhere near that.
- Ayo has shown a burst of speed this season that Dumars didn't really have.

Here's a highlight reel that I think shows similarities:

Watch on YouTube

[2weekswithpay]

I'm trying to think of a player comparison for him for a similar archetype of player. The one that I have in my mind is jrue holiday lite BUT ayo doesn't have the opportunity to run the offense, ayos efficiency is better but much worse defense.

Caruso? But he's a much better defender and a much worse offensive player


Who is a rim driver, hits 3s, can move the ball but isn't a floor general, play defense but isn't game changing (caruso)? No names are popping up in my head.

Bruce Brown? His 3pt percentage is down but he was 36% and 40% in the previous two seasons.

Does Bruce Brown have any playmaking chops? I think Ayo could be a PG but he doesn't have the opportunity right now.

I'd say he does. Brown was Murray's backup last season since Bones Hyland is a chucker and Reggie Jackson barely played in any games.

[sco]

https://www.nbcsportschicago.com/nba/chicago-bulls/bulls-news/bulls-ayo-dosunmu-consistently-flashing-two-way-talent/539699/

good read. says a lot of we've already noted, but a few interesting points:

On Peter Patton (who may be my new fave coach - seriously, how long have we been begging for a shooting coach!)

That said, both White and Dosunmu have openly talked about how much director of player development Peter Patton has helped them. Hired last offseason as a shooting coach to oversee the growing player development program, Patton, a local product like Dosunmu, is paying dividends.

“Coach P has been tremendous with me,” Dosunmu said. “Every day, in the morning, post-shootaround, I text him. He has done a great job of allowing me to understand my shot and find out what’s the best way I can be effective using my jump shot. And he’s very blunt with me. If I shoot a couple the wrong way, he always corrects me right away. And I thank him for that.

“He’s sending me film at nighttime saying, ‘This is a good shot. This is a bad shot.’ And we have a relationship where he can coach me hard.”

Dosunmu said Patton has most specifically aided him to hold his follow-through and position his shot similarly each time. Dosunmu is now shooting a career-high 41.1 percent on career-high volume of 3.2 attempts.

On Billy - I've been harping on this point too (although more with Pat)

Dosunmu credited Donovan, specifically citing a film session following the road loss to the New York Knicks as a turning point.

“Coach Billy in the film [session] he told me you should be a 40 percent 3-point shooter. But every time in the game against the Knicks, my knees were straight up. I wasn’t ready to shoot,” Dosunmu said. “He said if you just get shot ready, it will help your shot go in more often. I took that constructive criticism and since then, it’s felt much better.”

[PaKii94]

Didn't watch dumars. Got any specific highlights that show Ayo like traits?

To me, their similarities are:

- Both combo guards, similar sizes/weights.
- Both two-way players, though Dumars was better both defensively and offensively. Stylistically, they're both low-stance defenders and smart team defenders who position themselves well even off the ball.
- Similar temperaments. Dumars was very poised, and Ayo rarely gets rattled or overly emotional.
- Both are great at the catch-and-shoot three's.
- Both finish strong at the rim.
- Both were crafty offensive players which made up for their lack of hops. They both use a lot of herky-jerky movements, stop on a dime shots to catch their defender off-balance.

The biggest differences are:

- Dumars at his best was a top-2 level player on a contender. Ayo is nowhere near that.
- Ayo has shown a burst of speed this season that Dumars didn't really have.

Here's a highlight reel that I think shows similarities:

Watch on YouTube

Let me check him out.

I think what separates Ayo from the regular two way 3/d guard wing players (that while crucial on any team are unfortunately limited ceiling role players) is the playmaking ball handling skills. I think he's a step above 3/d (which id rate at like 2-4/10), not really a floor general (8-10/10) but above average and solid (6-7/10).

We haven't really seen many of those players.

[PaKii94]

Bruce Brown? His 3pt percentage is down but he was 36% and 40% in the previous two seasons.

Does Bruce Brown have any playmaking chops? I think Ayo could be a PG but he doesn't have the opportunity right now.

I'd say he does. Brown was Murray's backup last season since Bones Hyland is a chucker and Reggie Jackson barely played in any games.

Ok let me look into his highlights too then. Bruce Brown is sounding like a median baseline for him.

[GoBlue72391]

Didn't watch dumars. Got any specific highlights that show Ayo like traits?

To me, their similarities are:

- Both combo guards, similar sizes/weights.
- Both two-way players, though Dumars was better both defensively and offensively. Stylistically, they're both low-stance defenders and smart team defenders who position themselves well even off the ball.
- Similar temperaments. Dumars was very poised, and Ayo rarely gets rattled or overly emotional.
- Both are great at the catch-and-shoot three's.
- Both finish strong at the rim.
- Both were crafty offensive players which made up for their lack of hops. They both use a lot of herky-jerky movements, stop on a dime shots to catch their defender off-balance.

The biggest differences are:

- Dumars at his best was a top-2 level player on a contender. Ayo is nowhere near that.
- Ayo has shown a burst of speed this season that Dumars didn't really have.

Here's a highlight reel that I think shows similarities:

Watch on YouTube

Good comp, unfortunately the Dumars footage looks as if it was filmed in the midst of a brush fire

[League Circles]

Ayo should REALLY make oft-injured, aging, high value Caruso expendable this offseason in a trade, ideally a package deal for a more substantial player.

[dougthonus]

Ayo should REALLY make oft-injured, aging, high value Caruso expendable this offseason in a trade, ideally a package deal for a more substantial player.

Sad that he didn't do this over the previous deadline, when Caruso would have helped a team for multiple playoff runs and had even more value than he will in the off-season. That said, better in the off-season than not at all or extending Caruso to what has a high probability of being a bad contract later on.

[kodo]

I think Ayo has higher upside than just 3&D...that would be Robert Covington who can't do anything other than those 2 things. Ayo as a rook already had great playmaking instincts.

Watch on YouTube

You can't see it in assist #s because that's just volume. He makes passes I don't think too many other Bulls can or would even try.

[League Circles]

Ayo should REALLY make oft-injured, aging, high value Caruso expendable this offseason in a trade, ideally a package deal for a more substantial player.

Sad that he didn't do this over the previous deadline, when Caruso would have helped a team for multiple playoff runs and had even more value than he will in the off-season. That said, better in the off-season than not at all or extending Caruso to what has a high probability of being a bad contract later on.

Yeah and he's literally our ONLY positive value asset besides Coby and maybe Ayo this summer. Everybody else is either a free agent or a bad contract I think. If we fail to succeed this season (win or at least have a 7 game first round series), we have absolutely no other choice but to think about these guys plus all the flexibility we have going into the draft:

Vuc
Phillips
Terry
Zach
Ayo
Caruso
Coby
Carter

Those 8 guys are the only ones we can trade before free agency and with the draft. Only once we have that draft/trade period done before FA should we really even bother considering what to offer guys like Patrick, Demar and Drummond. Ideally looking at that group, realistically the best trade in that then desperate situation will be using Caruso packaged with Vuc and/or Carter to move their deals and reduce some salary by taking back less in the trade than is outgoing at least by as much as possible. Ideally getting back a quality versatile big 4/5 of some sort.

[Muzbar]

I think Ayo has higher upside than just 3&D...that would be Robert Covington who can't do anything other than those 2 things. Ayo as a rook already had great playmaking instincts.

Watch on YouTube

You can't see it in assist #s because that's just volume. He makes passes I don't think too many other Bulls can or would even try.

I agree, Ayo is actually a good playmaker but ATM that isn't his role. His rookie year had had a few 7-9 asts games, he had a good pick and roll/pop game with Vucevic also.

[ShouldaPaidBG]

Didn't watch dumars. Got any specific highlights that show Ayo like traits?

To me, their similarities are:

- Both combo guards, similar sizes/weights.
- Both two-way players, though Dumars was better both defensively and offensively. Stylistically, they're both low-stance defenders and smart team defenders who position themselves well even off the ball.
- Similar temperaments. Dumars was very poised, and Ayo rarely gets rattled or overly emotional.
- Both are great at the catch-and-shoot three's.
- Both finish strong at the rim.
- Both were crafty offensive players which made up for their lack of hops. They both use a lot of herky-jerky movements, stop on a dime shots to catch their defender off-balance.

The biggest differences are:

- Dumars at his best was a top-2 level player on a contender. Ayo is nowhere near that.
- Ayo has shown a burst of speed this season that Dumars didn't really have.

Here's a highlight reel that I think shows similarities:

Watch on YouTube

Let me check him out.

I think what separates Ayo from the regular two way 3/d guard wing players (that while crucial on any team are unfortunately limited ceiling role players) is the playmaking ball handling skills. I think he's a step above 3/d (which id rate at like 2-4/10), not really a floor general (8-10/10) but above average and solid (6-7/10).

We haven't really seen many of those players.

Exactly, he's unique.

[coldfish]

General kind of funny comment: AKME fell into success. By giving the 3 year to Simonovic and the 2 year to Ayo, they were forced to negotiate with Ayo early. Had they given Ayo the 3 year deal right off, they would be looking at a much bigger contract after this season.

[madvillian]

General kind of funny comment: AKME fell into success. By giving the 3 year to Simonovic and the 2 year to Ayo, they were forced to negotiate with Ayo early. Had they given Ayo the 3 year deal right off, they would be looking at a much bigger contract after this season.

And this offseason, all it would have taken is some team offering 4/40 (which now looks low given league wide inflation for even a middling young backup) and he'd have been lost.

Like yea, it's great it happened, but that's not good process.

[MGB8]

I think Ayo has higher upside than just 3&D...that would be Robert Covington who can't do anything other than those 2 things. Ayo as a rook already had great playmaking instincts.

Watch on YouTube

You can't see it in assist #s because that's just volume. He makes passes I don't think too many other Bulls can or would even try.

I do, too, but I also think that:
(1) the question is more about median upside (rather than absolute ceiling);
(2) whether Ayo can become impactful enough at any one thing that median upside isn’t a low level starter, high level reserve on a contending team; and
(3) if it’s the latter - and it might be - the similarly-sized Bruce Brown, Josh Richardson and Gary Harris are all more than pure 3&D players - all having some PG skills on top of being multi level scorers (Derrick White, too) - but just aren’t quite consistent and/or gifted enough (lacking eliteness in size as well as one of power, speed, shooting skills, etc.) to make the, top tier players. Pure 3&D guys in the Bogans, younger RoCo, younger Reggie Bullock mold don’t have that level of handle or passing).

If Ayo becomes a touch more consistent, he is up there with the 4 mentioned. And that is sort of a base hit on a mid-first round pick, a home run on a 2nd rounder (if not a grand slam like Jokic, Brunson, etc.).

[jnrjr79]

Ayo should REALLY make oft-injured, aging, high value Caruso expendable this offseason in a trade, ideally a package deal for a more substantial player.

If you're a team willing to pay up for Caruso, you're probably a contender, so it seems unlikely a "more substantial player" would be coming back, as opposed to primarily draft compensation, unless the player is disgruntled or overpaid. Also, given Caruso's modest salary, it'd be fairly difficult to trade him for a more substantial player absent throwing other guys in the deal.