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Red8911 wrote:

ShouldaPaidBG wrote:

MrSparkle wrote:Zach had his moment, particularly after the Olympic run with Draymond and Durant. At his best, I don’t think he had this “four unprotected picks” value like Mitchell or Gobert (although I didn’t think those guys did either… but granted they had longer playoff records and accolades). His $20M salary was probably a lot more appealing than his on-court potential.

I don’t particularly think there was ever a great market for $45M Lavine. We kinda did the right thing by offering him the max, but I thought they could’ve atleast explored the S&T market. FA markets have been tight the past few years (usually tank jobs have cap).

Anyway, it is what it is. If Pistons wanted Zach a week ago, they might as well want him in November since it makes no sense winning more games this season, anyway. I just think AK refuses to dump him for zero assets. Odds are that Pistons deal would’ve fallen through, as they’d try to jam Killian Hayes and Wiseman on us, instead of any picks.

Otherwise, here we go with over $70M of cap going to surgeries and rehabs. 3 seasons in a row rocked by heavy injuries to starters.

The Olympics are what put him on the wrong path. It was quarantine with Draymond that caused him to sign with Klutch in the first place. The ego problems came along with it. The way Zach came back from his ACL tear was actually impressive/inspiring. He clearly had an extremely regimented offseason workout routine. The Olympics threw it off for the first time in years. I think with a repaired knee you have to take recovery seriously, and Zach's body basically couldn't afford to spend an offseason playing the Olympics vs. his normal routine. The little injuries started piling up right after that, and it led us to where we are now. I'm not saying he lost his work ethic, definitely not, it's just that his body couldn't handle it and it created this cascade/domino effect of small dings leading to compensation injuries, leading to frustration and everything else that's happened.......he was a different player before an after the Olympics and it can't all be chalked up to the roster overhaul.

Let’s not forget he’s getting a lil older too, 29 soon. He’s never going to be the Zach that we had once he came to Chicago. The high flying fast as a bullet athletic player he once was is a thing in the past. He obviously can still do some of those things but not like he used to.

He chooses to not do things. It’s not that. He is still as fast and explosive as any good SG outside probably Anthony Edwards. What I see from him is conscious effort to not make those explosive to dunks anymore. He is very careful about how he jumps and lands. He doesn’t want alley oops. Probably to avoid putting unnecessary stress on his legs.

HomoSapien wrote:

Read on Twitter

Keep dreaming, AK.

kulaz3000 wrote:

HomoSapien wrote:

Read on Twitter

Keep dreaming, AK.

In all fairness, Lavine playing injured is still a significantly better player than Jalen Green who is a young shooting guard who is not particularly good at, you know, shooting. Green certainly has potential to be good since he’s so young. But for Houston who could pair VanVleet with Lavine, Brooks and Sengun, it’s not actually a terrible idea.

greenwing wrote:

kulaz3000 wrote:

HomoSapien wrote:

Read on Twitter

Keep dreaming, AK.

In all fairness, Lavine playing injured is still a significantly better player than Jalen Green who is a young shooting guard who is not particularly good at, you know, shooting. Green certainly has potential to be good since he’s so young. But for Houston who could pair VanVleet with Lavine, Brooks and Sengun, it’s not actually a terrible idea.

Yes, Zach is the better player, but he is on a mammoth contract which is the reason why teams are not interested in trading for him, for players of value. And though Green is not the greatest, he is still young and has lots of potential and he is under a controllable contract for a little while longer. As a Bulls fan, I'd be all for it, despite him being still a up and down player, the same reason why I would have been happy with Ivey.

kulaz3000 wrote:

HomoSapien wrote:

Read on Twitter

Keep dreaming, AK.

Jalen Green is such a low-IQ player. His ceiling is probably something similar to what peak Lavine was.

JG isn't just a low IQ player, he is also an inefficient scorer. Zach is flawed but can score the basketball with great efficiency.

WindyCityBorn wrote:

Red8911 wrote:

ShouldaPaidBG wrote:
The Olympics are what put him on the wrong path. It was quarantine with Draymond that caused him to sign with Klutch in the first place. The ego problems came along with it. The way Zach came back from his ACL tear was actually impressive/inspiring. He clearly had an extremely regimented offseason workout routine. The Olympics threw it off for the first time in years. I think with a repaired knee you have to take recovery seriously, and Zach's body basically couldn't afford to spend an offseason playing the Olympics vs. his normal routine. The little injuries started piling up right after that, and it led us to where we are now. I'm not saying he lost his work ethic, definitely not, it's just that his body couldn't handle it and it created this cascade/domino effect of small dings leading to compensation injuries, leading to frustration and everything else that's happened.......he was a different player before an after the Olympics and it can't all be chalked up to the roster overhaul.

Let’s not forget he’s getting a lil older too, 29 soon. He’s never going to be the Zach that we had once he came to Chicago. The high flying fast as a bullet athletic player he once was is a thing in the past. He obviously can still do some of those things but not like he used to.

He chooses to not do things. It’s not that. He is still as fast and explosive as any good SG outside probably Anthony Edwards. What I see from him is conscious effort to not make those explosive to dunks anymore. He is very careful about how he jumps and lands. He doesn’t want alley oops. Probably to avoid putting unnecessary stress on his legs.

BS. You have no idea what he's choosing or not choosing to do. There's enough things to criticize him for without having to make things up.

I don't know how we got to "we won the trade, because Zach is as good as Butler and younger plus we got other guys" to "this player is so bad that we will accept pretty much anybody half decent in response."

But we did. (And no, I am not exaggerating. Stacey was saying the former constantly back in Zach's All Star days, with plenty of support on this board.) And now we're hoping to swap Zach for a "shooting" guard who makes 41% from the field.

Gonna slap my head now.

Jalen Green basically is an irrational confidence player at this point. Think young Terry Rozier or Jordan Poole.

There is undeniably plenty of talent and athleticism. But he plays like he's in the rec league most of the time. He can go 11-15 on some games, then 5-18 the next.

Its the main reason last year people were saying they should run things through Sengun because he seemed a better more reliable player. That proved to be 100% correct this year.

He can prove to be an explosive scorer as he gets older but I think Houston would rather just Sengun everything and raise up Cam Whitmore as a replacement. Whitmore is a stud.

Gotta keep Zach at this point

GoBlue72391 wrote:

kulaz3000 wrote:

HomoSapien wrote:

Read on Twitter

Keep dreaming, AK.

Jalen Green is such a low-IQ player. His ceiling is probably something similar to what peak Lavine was.

So I’m not overpaying for the same package?

Ice Man wrote:I don't know how we got to "we won the trade, because Zach is as good as Butler and younger plus we got other guys" to "this player is so bad that we will accept pretty much anybody half decent in response."

But we did. (And no, I am not exaggerating. Stacey was saying the former constantly back in Zach's All Star days, with plenty of support on this board.) And now we're hoping to swap Zach for a "shooting" guard who makes 41% from the field.

Gonna slap my head now.

Contract numbers, length of time on contract, injury history - these three reasons are unfortunately playing huge factors against Zach. I think you can skate by if you only had to deal with 2 of 3, but all 3 of them together is why we are where we are.

I think there's something to be said too about the new CBA rules making teams having to be more cognizant in how they're allocating their money. The penalties are pretty severe if you're already in that second apron. And teams who aren't yet in the lux tax might also be needing to pay their players soon so they will go over that level also.

And like I said, if he's an expiring, teams can easily accommodate that to get off their longer term contracts. If he's not paid max money, he'll be easier to match without gutting their depth or affecting their cap. If he's healthy and playing, teams can talk themselves into adding a 60% TS athletic SG if they already have their #1 and/or #2 in place (like the Lakers were doing).

The injury complicates a LOT of things because it's a long road ahead and we can't know what Zach is gonna look like after recovery. Nobody wants to take on that risk on the contract he's on, so teams are now asking us to pay them a couple extra picks if we want them to shoulder that risk. We saw how debilitating having to carry $20M of dead contract with Lonzo - now to double that? Oh hey, we have both of them on our team! Lucky us!

We're not gonna be able to change the contract he signed, so the only thing left to do is for Zach to get healthy and get back on the court. Only then can we revisit the conversation again.

Yeah the tax thing will be real for most NBA teams. It certainly take a bit of luck to get someone on a value contract, but that is what is required or you will pay crazy lux tax.

Knicks are a good example where they actually have Randle on less than max. And of course Brunson is on a value contract. Its hard to believe their payroll is less than ours given all their moves.

DASMACKDOWN wrote:Jalen Green basically is an irrational confidence player at this point. Think young Terry Rozier or Jordan Poole.

There is undeniably plenty of talent and athleticism. But he plays like he's in the rec league most of the time. He can go 11-15 on some games, then 5-18 the next.

Its the main reason last year people were saying they should run things through Sengun because he seemed a better more reliable player. That proved to be 100% correct this year.

He can prove to be an explosive scorer as he gets older but I think Houston would rather just Sengun everything and raise up Cam Whitmore as a replacement. Whitmore is a stud.

Maybe that last part is a good thing, if it means Green is expendable for them. We need young talent and distressed assets, and he may be both. The Rockets getting Lavine also isn't all that different than taking on Steven Adams post-surgery, if you squint, which they did.

I still instinctively consider the Rockets a very young team, but they are somehow 10 mill over the cap since they have the grown man contracts of Van Vleet, Dillon Brooks and Steven Adams. They also don't have a lot of salary fluff for matching - Jeff Green 8 mill, Bullock and Boban 3 mill. They are 24 mill under the hard cap. To pull the trigger they would probably have to prefer Lavine to Adams and include Adams in the trade, which seems unlikely if not prohibited, since they just got him.

Do the Rockets bring Dillon Brooks off the bench, if you get Lavine? Put one of them at SF? They have other guys who need minutes, too.

I think Jalen Green may have regressed since this was written, but I found this detailed October column from Zach Lowe encouraging. Sorry if it's behind a paywall, Lowe's stuff usually is, but this one doesn't look like it from my end. https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/38568078/why-jalen-green-player-lead-houston-rockets-ascension

I don't see it happening, but I think I'd be happy if the Bulls could pull it off.

No one trading any plus value assets for a Lavine who is done for the year. Salary dump at the absolute most.

DuckIII wrote:No one trading any plus value assets for a Lavine who is done for the year. Salary dump at the absolute most.

If that were available, which I heavily doubt, we should probably take it. Meaning a true salary dump where we take back nothing beyond this year.

DuckIII wrote:No one trading any plus value assets for a Lavine who is done for the year. Salary dump at the absolute most.

Only hope to trade him now is to tanking teams. The ones who are actually competing will not even entertain an offer for a player who won’t play for the rest of the season.

If the Bulls can’t find a deal then they will revisit talks in the offseason. KC has said that the Bulls and Zach have an irreparable relationship that’s heading towards a divorce and both sides want to move on.

That’s why one way or another I expect the bulls to do whatever they can to get rid of him either now or the summer. I doubt he plays for the bulls again but obviously since he’s under contract it can happen.

_txchilibowl_ wrote:

WindyCityBorn wrote:

Red8911 wrote:Let’s not forget he’s getting a lil older too, 29 soon. He’s never going to be the Zach that we had once he came to Chicago. The high flying fast as a bullet athletic player he once was is a thing in the past. He obviously can still do some of those things but not like he used to.

He chooses to not do things. It’s not that. He is still as fast and explosive as any good SG outside probably Anthony Edwards. What I see from him is conscious effort to not make those explosive to dunks anymore. He is very careful about how he jumps and lands. He doesn’t want alley oops. Probably to avoid putting unnecessary stress on his legs.

BS. You have no idea what he's choosing or not choosing to do. There's enough things to criticize him for without having to make things up.

I’m not criticizing him. I don’t care if he does a regular two hand dunk instead of a windmill. The result is still two points.

WindyCityBorn wrote:

_txchilibowl_ wrote:

WindyCityBorn wrote:
He chooses to not do things. It’s not that. He is still as fast and explosive as any good SG outside probably Anthony Edwards. What I see from him is conscious effort to not make those explosive to dunks anymore. He is very careful about how he jumps and lands. He doesn’t want alley oops. Probably to avoid putting unnecessary stress on his legs.

BS. You have no idea what he's choosing or not choosing to do. There's enough things to criticize him for without having to make things up.

I’m not criticizing him. I don’t care if he does a regular two hand dunk instead of a windmill. The result is still two points.

Oh man this is totally my bad. I completely misread your post. My apologies. No more posting before coffee for me.