Who isn't mad at Arturas?

[League Circles]

I randomly came across this clip. Didn't feel like starting a new thread for it, so I'll stick it in here:

Read on Twitter

Edit, this isn't me endorsing anything Ricky is saying. Just thought it was cool to see the behind the scenes stuff even if I strongly disagreed with both moves.

Good thing he points out of the problematic nature of their white skin, as opposed to his white skin. What a world.

[GoBlue72391]

I randomly came across this clip. Didn't feel like starting a new thread for it, so I'll stick it in here:

Read on Twitter

Edit, this isn't me endorsing anything Ricky is saying. Just thought it was cool to see the behind the scenes stuff even if I strongly disagreed with both moves.

I'm not a GarPax stan by any means, but that's a pretty dumb conclusion for Ricky O'Donnell to make. They're applauding the drafting of Markkannen. Big whoop. I would hope all GMs would applaud their own pick, at least for the player's sake (and the cameras that were in the room). The "white guys" part is just weird, as if there's an element of racism just under the surface or something.

Did he expect them to make a trade, draft a player, and then look sad about it or something? "Damn it, we drafted this bum?!?!"

And calling it one of the worst trades in recent memory is a gross exaggeration. Minnesota sure as hell didn't win that deal. We got back two all-star caliber/fringe all-NBA players plus an elite defensive guard. We just completely botched the handling of said players.

Just a weird Tweet, not that I'm ridiculing you for sharing it.

[GoBlue72391]

Patrick Williams is why Lauri isn't here. Lauri want going to play Center. He was a PF publicly saying he wanted to play the 3
Just like Williams.

The Bulls chose the wrong guy. But it wasn't (or at least shouldn't have been) because of Vuc.

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No not really. He was playing the 3 with Lauri before the Vuc trade. Pat still played the 3 after the Vuc with Theis playing the 4 because of his help defense. The reason why he got benched was because Vuc and Lauri didn’t fit well in the front court. This disproves your theory.

The fact that rookie Pat started and played the 3 while Lauri was asking to, and then Lauri was traded while Pat continued to be gifted the starting job, disproves my theory that the Bulls chose keeping Williams over keeping Lauri, and my opinion that it was the wrong choice? Sure.

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Vuc is clearly the main reason Lauri isn't here. Pat surely played a part in it, but until the Vuc trade Lauri was still starting and was still in the Bull's long-term plans. The Vuc trade changed all that.

The narrative from the FO before the trade was even made official was all that riff-raff about how they doubt Lauri and Vuc could play together, and that was echoed by the announcers too.

[PaKii94]

Patrick Williams is why Lauri isn't here. Lauri want going to play Center. He was a PF publicly saying he wanted to play the 3
Just like Williams.

The Bulls chose the wrong guy. But it wasn't (or at least shouldn't have been) because of Vuc.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

No not really. He was playing the 3 with Lauri before the Vuc trade. Pat still played the 3 after the Vuc with Theis playing the 4 because of his help defense. The reason why he got benched was because Vuc and Lauri didn’t fit well in the front court. This disproves your theory.

The fact that rookie Pat started and played the 3 while Lauri was asking to, and then Lauri was traded while Pat continued to be gifted the starting job, disproves my theory that the Bulls chose keeping Williams over keeping Lauri, and my opinion that it was the wrong choice? Sure.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

When did Lauri ever ask to play the 3? He asked for more touches. He probs asked to NOT play the 5 tbh

[Stratmaster]

No not really. He was playing the 3 with Lauri before the Vuc trade. Pat still played the 3 after the Vuc with Theis playing the 4 because of his help defense. The reason why he got benched was because Vuc and Lauri didn’t fit well in the front court. This disproves your theory.

The fact that rookie Pat started and played the 3 while Lauri was asking to, and then Lauri was traded while Pat continued to be gifted the starting job, disproves my theory that the Bulls chose keeping Williams over keeping Lauri, and my opinion that it was the wrong choice? Sure.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

Vuc is clearly the main reason Lauri isn't here. Pat surely played a part in it, but until the Vuc trade Lauri was still starting and was still in the Bull's long-term plans. The Vuc trade changed all that.

The narrative from the FO before the trade was even made official was all that riff-raff about how they doubt Lauri and Vuc could play together, and that was echoed by the announcers too.

Of course, you can speculate that without the Vuc trade, the Bulls don't trade a 7' floor spreader. But without Williams, they don't trade Lauri either. Billy played them together exactly 1 game before benching Lauri. The fact is, Billy didn't see anything in Lauri, Billy liked small ball and playing fast. It wasn't that they proved they couldn't play together. Billy didn't want them playing together.The guy who replaced Lauri was still rookie Patrick Williams. Funny thing is they were saying the EXACT same things about Williams back then that we are still saying today.

Sam Smith on the Vuc trade: "I'm not for trading Markkanen, though more things could happen this summer based on the urgency and boldness Arturas Karnisovas has shown. I know who Markkanen is, and because the Bulls needed a seven footer to get in the post, rebound and out tough the tough big guys, Markkanen was disappointing. Now they have someone else to do that, which means Markkanen can do what he does and who he is, which is a seven footer who is an excellent three-point shooter and versatile enough to defend that second line big man or stretch four player. Suddenly the Bulls are huge with a pair of front court seven footers who can complement one another.......With Patrick Williams the Bulls have one who looks like he could be excellent. Perhaps he replaces Markkanen at some point because he looks more like a power forward with his body and more physical attitude. But now the Bulls don't have to rely on him, which he's shown they shouldn't as he's nowhere near ready to be a consistent producer."

That was followed by a discussion between Art Alenik and Smith on whether Williams would replace Lauri, with the 2 of them disagreeing.

Sean Carroll "Sir Charles" on Fansided, speculating at the time of the Vuc trade "The following season, the Bulls build on their playoff berth, re-signing key veterans, bringing back Lauri on a team-friendly deal"

Also fansided, in the first offseason just before the Lauri trade: "The Bulls’ new starting lineup, currently without barring any new roster moves, looks like — Lonzo Ball, Zach LaVine, DeMar DeRozan, Patrick Williams, and Nikola Vucevic.That means Coby White, Alex Caruso, and maybe Lauri Markkanen will head the second rotation. "

Forbes: The hope is Markkanen and the recently benched Coby White, two offensive-minded players with defensive limitations, will make a bigger impact in bench roles. However, it’s fair to wonder just what the long-term future holds for these two in Chicago given the commitment to building around LaVine and Vucevic, two offensive-minded stars with defensive limitations, plus a rookie in Patrick Williams who might just be better at the 4.

Hindsight from KC Johnson: "The Bulls gave up on Lauri Markkanen, who now on his third team is headed towards a potential first All-Star selection and is playing other worldly basketball." Did they give up on him, or was he a bad fit?

Just an aside. Found this quote about Billy from October 2021: "Donovan has expressed a desire to play faster this season, so it doesn’t appear he will turn to a traditional big man to step in for Williams at power forward". He is a broken record that never delivers.

[Stratmaster]

No not really. He was playing the 3 with Lauri before the Vuc trade. Pat still played the 3 after the Vuc with Theis playing the 4 because of his help defense. The reason why he got benched was because Vuc and Lauri didn’t fit well in the front court. This disproves your theory.

The fact that rookie Pat started and played the 3 while Lauri was asking to, and then Lauri was traded while Pat continued to be gifted the starting job, disproves my theory that the Bulls chose keeping Williams over keeping Lauri, and my opinion that it was the wrong choice? Sure.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

When did Lauri ever ask to play the 3? He asked for more touches. He probs asked to NOT play the 5 tbh

I don't have the best memory in the world, but I seem to remember that his trainer from Finland, or his agent, or a family member or someone like that was raising a stir in the press during his last season with the Bulls saying that his natural position was the 3 and he preferred to play there; and the reports were that Lauri agreed with this.

[PaKii94]

The fact that rookie Pat started and played the 3 while Lauri was asking to, and then Lauri was traded while Pat continued to be gifted the starting job, disproves my theory that the Bulls chose keeping Williams over keeping Lauri, and my opinion that it was the wrong choice? Sure.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

When did Lauri ever ask to play the 3? He asked for more touches. He probs asked to NOT play the 5 tbh

I don't have the best memory in the world, but I seem to remember that his trainer from Finland, or his agent, or a family member or someone like that was raising a stir in the press during his last season with the Bulls saying that his natural position was the 3 and he preferred to play there; and the reports were that Lauri agreed with this.

You're mixing up WCJ and Lauri. Lauri asked for more touches but there was never anything about position.

WCJ wanted to play the perimeter more and less big (since in the boylen offense the perimeter had the touches priority)

[HomoSapien]

I finally just watched the post-trade deadline presser. God lord, AK inspires little confidence. I often disagreed with Pax, but somehow I felt better after hearing him speak. AK just seems like he doesn't know what he's doing. He keeps saying the goal is to be competitive but keeps glossing over the fact that we've been a late play-in level team for two seasons. My conclusions are:

1.) He has an inflated opinion of this team, that almost no one outside of the FO shares.

or

2.) He's lying but he's depleted his assets so badly that he has no idea how to get himself out of this mess.

I, unfortunately, think it's more of number 1 as we could have recouped some draft capital for Caruso and probably Drummond and DeRozan. Right now it feels like the plan is to extend Derozan and run it back with this squad for two more seasons. I think too many FOs give up on their teams too quickly, and in that respect I agree there's value in continuity, but that's only true of a team shows enough promise. In AK's defense, we have looked significantly better over the last 30 games or so but boy this guy is giving a lot of rope to a team that hasn't earned it.

Props to Cowley for asking the hard questions.

[League Circles]

I think not trading our players is going to continue to build the right rep with players. Most players hate the thought of being traded most of the time especially quality vets and the Bulls are becoming one of the few if only teams that has credibility if they claim they're loyal to players.

[step]

When did Lauri ever ask to play the 3? He asked for more touches. He probs asked to NOT play the 5 tbh

I don't have the best memory in the world, but I seem to remember that his trainer from Finland, or his agent, or a family member or someone like that was raising a stir in the press during his last season with the Bulls saying that his natural position was the 3 and he preferred to play there; and the reports were that Lauri agreed with this.

You're mixing up WCJ and Lauri. Lauri asked for more touches but there was never anything about position.

WCJ wanted to play the perimeter more and less big (since in the boylen offense the perimeter had the touches priority)

Strat is somewhat right, position with Lauri was definitely a thing. Management tried to get him to bulk up more thinking he could be a mobile 5, while he did view himself more on the wing and there were from recollection a few puff pieces where he voiced that.

Adding to why he isn't here... well I think we all have opinions here.

[PaKii94]

I don't have the best memory in the world, but I seem to remember that his trainer from Finland, or his agent, or a family member or someone like that was raising a stir in the press during his last season with the Bulls saying that his natural position was the 3 and he preferred to play there; and the reports were that Lauri agreed with this.

You're mixing up WCJ and Lauri. Lauri asked for more touches but there was never anything about position.

WCJ wanted to play the perimeter more and less big (since in the boylen offense the perimeter had the touches priority)

Strat is somewhat right, position with Lauri was definitely a thing. Management tried to get him to bulk up more thinking he could be a mobile 5, while he did view himself more on the wing and there were from recollection a few puff pieces where he voiced that.

Adding to why he isn't here... well I think we all have opinions here.

Position was a thing with Lauri in the sense that he didn't see himself as a bruising 7ft bigman that the previous regime tried to turn him into. He didn't specifically ask to play the 3. He was already playing his ideal 4 position. He just wasn't getting touches as the #4.

The person who specifically talked about a position change was WCJ

https://pippenainteasy.com/2020/04/02/chicago-bulls-wendell-carter-jr-openly-requests-position-change-power-forward/

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bulls/2020/3/31/21201252/player-breakdowns-bulls-wendell-carter-jr-position-change

[step]

1.) He has an inflated opinion of this team, that almost no one outside of the FO shares.

He epitomises the definition of having rose coloured glasses. Or can't admit when he's wrong.

Every trade recap show or piece I've read has basically lambasted the Bulls position for standing pat. And as KC points out the longer we stand pat, the less value our pieces have.

Right now it feels like the plan is to extend Derozan and run it back with this squad for two more seasons.

Honestly, this will be Demar's last big deal ... I somewhat expect he'll be looking for another 3 years.

Props to Cowley for asking the hard questions.

Now I have to find it...

[PaKii94]

I do agree in the sense that after the Vuc trade AKME probs thought PWill could fit at the 4 next to Vuc making Lauri expendable. BUT the decision to move on from Lauri was because Vuc was brought in "as an upgrade" from soft ass bigman Lauri to a true heavy post center (who could theoretically hit the 3)

[madvillian]

I do agree in the sense that after the Vuc trade AKME probs thought PWill could fit at the 4 next to Vuc making Lauri expendable. BUT the decision to move on from Lauri was because Vuc was brought in "as an upgrade" from soft ass bigman Lauri to a true heavy post center (who could theoretically hit the 3)

I think AKME thought both WCJR and Lauri were soft. I mean, maybe they are but then what is Zach? And then what is Vuc? Vuc is certainly not an enforcer of anything, he's not Steven Adams. He's not even like Drummond.

It was in hindsight a terribly rushed move that produced one decent season and that's about it.

[HomoSapien]

I do agree in the sense that after the Vuc trade AKME probs thought PWill could fit at the 4 next to Vuc making Lauri expendable. BUT the decision to move on from Lauri was because Vuc was brought in "as an upgrade" from soft ass bigman Lauri to a true heavy post center (who could theoretically hit the 3)

I think AKME thought both WCJR and Lauri were soft. I mean, maybe they are but then what is Zach? And then what is Vuc? Vuc is certainly not an enforcer of anything, he's not Steven Adams. He's not even like Drummond.

It was in hindsight a terribly rushed move that produced one decent season and that's about it.

The Lauri trade stings, especially as we watch Vuc brick three-pointer after three-pointer. I wanted Lauri coming out of that draft and thought he looked like a franchise cornerstone after his first two seasons. But after that, he dropped the ball. He stopped progressing, looked passive, and oftentimes took steps backward. Maybe some blame goes to our coaching or even to Zach, but I think a large part of the blame is on Lauri. Sometimes guys just need a change of scenery, and Lauri seems to be an example of that.

The big lesson to learn from this is that we need to be more patient with our young guys. Most of the board wanted to trade Coby and let Ayo walk in free-agency. Can you imagine how suicidal this fanbase would be if that's what happened? I think Pat has been extremely disappointing, but at this point we might as well be patient with him and hope he's just a slow developer.

As for Carter, I still think he's awful. The guy is perpetually injured and though he's seen as a defender was regularly giving up season highs to the opposing center while he was here. The issue wasn't trading him. That was the right call. The issue was including such poorly protected picks.

[madvillian]

I do agree in the sense that after the Vuc trade AKME probs thought PWill could fit at the 4 next to Vuc making Lauri expendable. BUT the decision to move on from Lauri was because Vuc was brought in "as an upgrade" from soft ass bigman Lauri to a true heavy post center (who could theoretically hit the 3)

I think AKME thought both WCJR and Lauri were soft. I mean, maybe they are but then what is Zach? And then what is Vuc? Vuc is certainly not an enforcer of anything, he's not Steven Adams. He's not even like Drummond.

It was in hindsight a terribly rushed move that produced one decent season and that's about it.

The Lauri trade stings, especially as we watch Vuc brick three-pointer after three-pointer. I wanted Lauri coming out of that draft and thought he looked like a franchise cornerstone after his first two seasons. But after that, he dropped the ball. He stopped progressing, looked passive, and oftentimes took steps backward. Maybe some blame goes to our coaching or even to Zach, but I think a large part of the blame is on Lauri. Sometimes guys just need a change of scenery, and Lauri seems to be an example of that.

The big lesson to learn from this is that we need to be more patient with our young guys. Most of the board wanted to trade Coby and let Ayo walk in free-agency. Can you imagine how suicidal this fanbase would be if that's what happened? I think Pat has been extremely disappointing, but at this point we might as well be patient with him and hope he's just a slow developer.

As for Carter, I still think he's awful. The guy is perpetually injured and though he's seen as a defender was regularly giving up season highs to the opposing center while he was here. The issue wasn't trading him. That was the right call. The issue was including such poorly protected picks.

I'm a pretty similar mindset. Carter was no big loss, although as a decent young and cheapish player it was a lose nonetheless. The real crime was including the draft capital and then resigning Vuc when it was obvious (even at the time many fans saw it) he should have been dealt before his deal expired and we paid through the roof for a 40 win ceiling.

[step]

You're mixing up WCJ and Lauri. Lauri asked for more touches but there was never anything about position.

WCJ wanted to play the perimeter more and less big (since in the boylen offense the perimeter had the touches priority)

Strat is somewhat right, position with Lauri was definitely a thing. Management tried to get him to bulk up more thinking he could be a mobile 5, while he did view himself more on the wing and there were from recollection a few puff pieces where he voiced that.

Adding to why he isn't here... well I think we all have opinions here.

Position was a thing with Lauri in the sense that he didn't see himself as a bruising 7ft bigman that the previous regime tried to turn him into. He didn't specifically ask to play the 3. He was already playing his ideal 4 position. He just wasn't getting touches as the #4.

The person who specifically talked about a position change was WCJ

https://pippenainteasy.com/2020/04/02/chicago-bulls-wendell-carter-jr-openly-requests-position-change-power-forward/

https://chicago.suntimes.com/bulls/2020/3/31/21201252/player-breakdowns-bulls-wendell-carter-jr-position-change

Like I'm having the recollection or memory for a Finnish media article that Morten translated? I recall a small collective groan at it likening it to when Tyrus thought he was a wing too. I could be way off and you're right, Mandella effect. And yeah, I know you're right with WCJ too. Anyways, enough on this part.

[Dan Z]

I think not trading our players is going to continue to build the right rep with players. Most players hate the thought of being traded most of the time especially quality vets and the Bulls are becoming one of the few if only teams that has credibility if they claim they're loyal to players.

"...build the right rep with players". What's the goal with that? Getting a star to demand a trade to Chicago? I don't see that happening.

If the Bulls moved in a new direction I don't think it means players will refuse to come here.

[Dan Z]

I think AKME thought both WCJR and Lauri were soft. I mean, maybe they are but then what is Zach? And then what is Vuc? Vuc is certainly not an enforcer of anything, he's not Steven Adams. He's not even like Drummond.

It was in hindsight a terribly rushed move that produced one decent season and that's about it.

The Lauri trade stings, especially as we watch Vuc brick three-pointer after three-pointer. I wanted Lauri coming out of that draft and thought he looked like a franchise cornerstone after his first two seasons. But after that, he dropped the ball. He stopped progressing, looked passive, and oftentimes took steps backward. Maybe some blame goes to our coaching or even to Zach, but I think a large part of the blame is on Lauri. Sometimes guys just need a change of scenery, and Lauri seems to be an example of that.

The big lesson to learn from this is that we need to be more patient with our young guys. Most of the board wanted to trade Coby and let Ayo walk in free-agency. Can you imagine how suicidal this fanbase would be if that's what happened? I think Pat has been extremely disappointing, but at this point we might as well be patient with him and hope he's just a slow developer.

As for Carter, I still think he's awful. The guy is perpetually injured and though he's seen as a defender was regularly giving up season highs to the opposing center while he was here. The issue wasn't trading him. That was the right call. The issue was including such poorly protected picks.

I'm a pretty similar mindset. Carter was no big loss, although as a decent young and cheapish player it was a lose nonetheless. The real crime was including the draft capital and then resigning Vuc when it was obvious (even at the time many fans saw it) he should have been dealt before his deal expired and we paid through the roof for a 40 win ceiling.

My issues with the Vucevic trade are two things:

The protections on the picks. I bet that both the Bulls and Magic made that trade thinking that the Bulls would make the playoffs that season. With that in mind why not protect the first pick just in case things go badly? I bet the Magic still make the deal.

And two...AK chose Vuc over Lauri. I know this is hindsight, but he gave up on a young big, with potential, for a vet who is (or was) a good player but not a star. On top of that he cost assets to acquire. The better bet, IMO, is try to figure out how to maximize what Lauri can do (as he's already on your team and had moments where he played well).

[madvillian]

The Lauri trade stings, especially as we watch Vuc brick three-pointer after three-pointer. I wanted Lauri coming out of that draft and thought he looked like a franchise cornerstone after his first two seasons. But after that, he dropped the ball. He stopped progressing, looked passive, and oftentimes took steps backward. Maybe some blame goes to our coaching or even to Zach, but I think a large part of the blame is on Lauri. Sometimes guys just need a change of scenery, and Lauri seems to be an example of that.

The big lesson to learn from this is that we need to be more patient with our young guys. Most of the board wanted to trade Coby and let Ayo walk in free-agency. Can you imagine how suicidal this fanbase would be if that's what happened? I think Pat has been extremely disappointing, but at this point we might as well be patient with him and hope he's just a slow developer.

As for Carter, I still think he's awful. The guy is perpetually injured and though he's seen as a defender was regularly giving up season highs to the opposing center while he was here. The issue wasn't trading him. That was the right call. The issue was including such poorly protected picks.

I'm a pretty similar mindset. Carter was no big loss, although as a decent young and cheapish player it was a lose nonetheless. The real crime was including the draft capital and then resigning Vuc when it was obvious (even at the time many fans saw it) he should have been dealt before his deal expired and we paid through the roof for a 40 win ceiling.

My issues with the Vucevic trade are two things:

The protections on the picks. I bet that both the Bulls and Magic made that trade thinking that the Bulls would make the playoffs that season. With that in mind why not protect the first pick just in case things go badly? I bet the Magic still make the deal.

And two...AK chose Vuc over Lauri. I know this is hindsight, but he gave up on a young big, with potential, for a vet who is (or was) a good player but not a star. On top of that he cost assets to acquire. The better bet, IMO, is try to figure out how to maximize what Lauri can do (as he's already on your team and had moments where he played well).

It was make a move to make a move logic that has now led into continuity as logic. I mean, as an employee defending a job for an owner that just wants mediocrity as the baseline I get it, but as a fan it makes no sense and is hard to defend.