Bulls @ Magic 6pm CT

[Guru]

Nobody expected Coby to take the leap that he's done this year. Ask anyone here.

They weren't building with that in mind and if you think so that's revisionist history.

Going into next year they'll have to figure out contracts for DDR, PW and Drummond. They won't have any room to get anyone new and might lose Drummond.

The 2024 pick I hope is a good one, but any rookie they get will probably take some time. Zach will be showcased and eventually traded. For what....who knows?

Lots of foreclosed thinking when in fact we face a see of unknown.

Of course they assumed White would improve. And PAW for that matter.

I'm sure they were hoping both players would improve, but nobody thought Coby would improve as much as he did.

It's okay to be optimistic about the future of this team, but I don't see a bright future ahead.

It's very possible that it won't happen...but it is possible it will happen....and that's the more fun aspect of this.

[kodo]

Haven't seen the game yet. We are out of town. But from the looks of it, let me guess...

Bulls fall behind. Fight back to take the lead. Fall apart while being outcoached in q4 relying heavily on Demar ISO.

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Pretty much except we were up when the 4th started not behind. We went mostly Demar and they just put Isaac on him and he got nothing. Meanwhile, everyone else just watched except Coby who went cold.

4th Q:
Demar 1/6
Coby 0/4
Vuc 2/3

Nobody else took more than 1 shot. 15 points in the 4th quarter.
Bad way to lose a game when we were up by 6 in 3 quarters, and ORL wasn't hot either they only scored 21 in the 4th.

We still have some questionable decision making even when Demar isn't going iso. Coby got his shot blocked by charging into the entire ORL team instead of passing:

Spoiler:

I get not passing to Demar at the 3. I get not passing to Vuc at the 3, he was 1-7. But Ayo was 5-8 and begging for the ball.
But in general I do think it's tough for Coby to drive & kick when Demar/Vuc aren't valid kickout passes, and we aren't willing to bench either. Just too easy for teams to collapse on us. Yeah Coby had a tough game, but the team construction doesn't do him any favors.

We still pretend Vuc is a floor spacer when he clearly isn't. He should be positioned similar to Drummond, let him get layups, at least someone has to guard him.

[chitownsports4ever]

Haven't seen the game yet. We are out of town. But from the looks of it, let me guess...

Bulls fall behind. Fight back to take the lead. Fall apart while being outcoached in q4 relying heavily on Demar ISO.

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Pretty much except we were up when the 4th started not behind. We went mostly Demar and they just put Isaac on him and he got nothing. Meanwhile, everyone else just watched except Coby who went cold.

4th Q:
Demar 1/6
Coby 0/4
Vuc 2/3

Nobody else took more than 1 shot. 15 points in the 4th quarter.
Bad way to lose a game when we were up by 6 in 3 quarters, and ORL wasn't hot either they only scored 21 in the 4th.

We still have some questionable decision making even when Demar isn't going iso. Coby got his shot blocked by charging into the entire ORL team instead of passing:

Spoiler:

I get not passing to Demar at the 3. I get not passing to Vuc at the 3, he was 1-7. But Ayo was 5-8 and begging for the ball.
But in general I do think it's tough for Coby to drive & kick when Demar/Vuc aren't valid kickout passes, and we aren't willing to bench either. Just too easy for teams to collapse on us. Yeah Coby had a tough game, but the team construction doesn't do him any favors.

We still pretend Vuc is a floor spacer when he clearly isn't. He should be positioned similar to Drummond, let him get layups, at least someone has to guard him.

Vooch shouldn't of had to be the "floor spacer" he should've been inside and we shouldve been going to him every time because they never actually stopped him . Vooch was 1-7 from three but thats makes him 11-15 every place else so why is he outside while the guys are going 1-10 and why dont they realize this ?

Demar didnt get calls got mad and then started forcing the issue with one on one play but thats not how we got the lead. Coby he deferred to Demar I get it he was struggling but Demar consistently chose his matchup against Isaac over Voochs matchup against Bitadze and that to me is Billys fault not team construction.

The Bulls studio crew knew we were never gonna continue to stay with what was working and give the ball to Vooch in the second half and the reason why is thats just what we do . ..again thats on Billy

As I said in aprevious post this game was lost when Billy sat Demar and Vooch midway through the 4th . He played Vooch like he was trying to save his energy but we were up 8 and instead going to the twin tower lineup with Demar out and try and stretch that lead he played to hold on and blew the lead and Vooch ended up playing 43 minutes anyway. Why not use those minutes to try and stretch the lead instead of waiting and reacting and trying to save it ? again thats Billy..

Billys gut calls have been just as bad as Demars game winners this year and Voochs three point shooting

[Ice Man]

The Bulls studio crew knew we were never gonna continue to stay with what was working and give the ball to Vooch in the second half and the reason why is thats just what we do . ..again thats on Billy

We have reached the 5th and Final Stage of NBA fandom. Stage #1 occurs when fans are giddy with excitement and then the stages progress until by Stage #5 the fans are 100% embittered. In each case, the team wins and loses about half of its very close games, but the fan reactions are wildly different.

Stage #1 - No worries, these things happen.
Stage #2 - That was frustrating, because we are better than them, but we'll beat them next time.
Stage #3 - Aaagh! Zach is a great player, but he's not good at finishing. We need to think about using a different closer.
Stage #4 - Those **** refs cheated us. We would have won with different refs.
Stage #5 - The coach lost the game for us. We would have won with a different coach.

We spent most of last year in Stage #4. But this year the referee complaints have largely disappeared, and we are entirely, thoroughly in Stage #5.

[Stratmaster]

The Bulls studio crew knew we were never gonna continue to stay with what was working and give the ball to Vooch in the second half and the reason why is thats just what we do . ..again thats on Billy

We have reached the 5th and Final Stage of NBA fandom. Stage #1 occurs when fans are giddy with excitement and then the stages progress until by Stage #5 the fans are 100% embittered. In each case, the team wins and loses about half of its very close games, but the fan reactions are wildly different.

Stage #1 - No worries, these things happen.
Stage #2 - That was frustrating, because we are better than them, but we'll beat them next time.
Stage #3 - Aaagh! Zach is a great player, but he's not good at finishing. We need to think about using a different closer.
Stage #4 - Those **** refs cheated us. We would have won with different refs.
Stage #5 - The coach lost the game for us. We would have won with a different coach.

We spent most of last year in Stage #4. But this year the referee complaints have largely disappeared, and we are entirely, thoroughly in Stage #5.

I've been in stage 5 since about 5 games into Billy's tenure.

You are right about the stages, though. Many on here reset to stage 1 when Zach went down and Coby came in hot. They currently are in stage 3, although I have been pointing out stage 3 has been happening all along. It was just covered up by insanely hot shooting.

Soon, they will be back to stage 5. Because the coach actually is a significant part of the problem.

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[FriedRise]

Just watched the game.

Orlando went Cole Anthony + 4X 6'10 dudes in the 4th quarter and we couldn't match up with our plethora of guards. Almost every position was a mismatch. Offensive rebound after offensive rebound and all we can do was foul.

Still, it was a very winnable game if we just got an average shooting night from Coby. Coby being cold allowed the Magic to just hone in on DeRozan, who really struggled to get anything going with Isaac on him. Ayo stepped up, Caruso was Caruso, and with Vooch 95% of the time you can afford leaving him alone at the 3pt line if you just get ready for that rebound.

Too bad we couldn't get much production from our bench guys. Craig should've played more but I guess he's still on a minutes restriction. Terry and Phillips were largely unproductive, and Drummond just couldn't pull himself out of the funk when he gets tagged with a couple early fouls. With Drummond, you either get a terrific 20/20 game or he fills up the statsheet with turnovers and fouls. Carter was another DNP, but probably made sense given Orlando's size.

Down the line, we predictably kept going with DeMar and Coby. Hindsight is 20/20, but the couple times they went to Ayo, we were able to score. It is what it is. Against a bad team, we probably would've been able to pull it off, but our lack of depth and size really get exposed going up against a fully healthy squad like Orlando (they have no injuries... it's crazy). It's gonna be tough to win a game against any good team with 70M on the bench.

[GoBlue72391]

You mean Coby? He's a key piece right now because he took a leap forward, but nobody saw that coming.

There's a big difference between a team rebuilding to look for foundational pieces to build with (which is what the Magic have done) and the Bulls who went in a "win now" direction (by trading future assets for vets).

The Bulls were never building around Coby and right now they're not even doing that. Next year the team will basically be the same and maybe even worse (will Drummond stay?).

They created the scaffolding for White to become what he is. That was absolutely the plan.....and they will have PAW, a top 15 pick and whatever we get for LaVine or LaVine....It will be much improved.

Nobody expected Coby to take the leap that he's done this year. Ask anyone here.

They weren't building with that in mind and if you think so that's revisionist history.

Going into next year they'll have to figure out contracts for DDR, PW and Drummond. They won't have any room to get anyone new and might lose Drummond.

The 2024 pick I hope is a good one, but any rookie they get will probably take some time. Zach will be showcased and eventually traded. For what....who knows?

Anyone who says they saw this coming from Coby before this season began is a bold-faced liar.

He was considered an afterthought and was constantly mentioned in trade talks by fans and the assumption was AKME would eventually move on from him. Last season the narrative was that he improved his handles and defense, but he was still a relatively minor bench piece and averaged the lowest PPG of his career at 9. Such a limited role and a very modest contract extension shows that AKME didn't think super highly of him either.

This breakout literally came out of nowhere, so to suggest the Bulls were building around him or orchestrating things behind the scenes to eventually build around him is absolute nonsense. If AKME ever did have a plan, and I'm not sure if they ever did, it was banking on Pat to become the next Kawhi.

To attempt to give AKME credit for having the foresight to see Coby's breakout coming is beyond delusional.

[GoBlue72391]

They created the scaffolding for White to become what he is. That was absolutely the plan.....and they will have PAW, a top 15 pick and whatever we get for LaVine or LaVine....It will be much improved.

Nobody expected Coby to take the leap that he's done this year. Ask anyone here.

They weren't building with that in mind and if you think so that's revisionist history.

Going into next year they'll have to figure out contracts for DDR, PW and Drummond. They won't have any room to get anyone new and might lose Drummond.

The 2024 pick I hope is a good one, but any rookie they get will probably take some time. Zach will be showcased and eventually traded. For what....who knows?

Lots of foreclosed thinking when in fact we face a see of unknown.

Of course they assumed White would improve. And PAW for that matter.

There's a huge difference between expecting a player to continue gradually improving and completely breaking out into a potential future star-caliber player.

And PAW, as you call him, has barely improved at all throughout his career, so great job AKME, right?

[kodo]

If AKME always saw Coby being this good, they would have started him when Lonzo went down for development. Coby hasn't started since around 2020. They started Ayo ahead of Coby for the last 2 seasons, and then Patrick Beverley. And all last 2 seasons they were hoping for Lonzo to recover instead of just getting off his contract and using that $20M for another position.

I think it's pretty clear they never expected Coby to be a starting PG until now.

[Stratmaster]

Haven't seen the game yet. We are out of town. But from the looks of it, let me guess...

Bulls fall behind. Fight back to take the lead. Fall apart while being outcoached in q4 relying heavily on Demar ISO.

Sent from my SM-S911U using RealGM mobile app

Pretty much except we were up when the 4th started not behind. We went mostly Demar and they just put Isaac on him and he got nothing. Meanwhile, everyone else just watched except Coby who went cold.

4th Q:
Demar 1/6
Coby 0/4
Vuc 2/3

Nobody else took more than 1 shot. 15 points in the 4th quarter.
Bad way to lose a game when we were up by 6 in 3 quarters, and ORL wasn't hot either they only scored 21 in the 4th.

We still have some questionable decision making even when Demar isn't going iso. Coby got his shot blocked by charging into the entire ORL team instead of passing:

Spoiler:

I get not passing to Demar at the 3. I get not passing to Vuc at the 3, he was 1-7. But Ayo was 5-8 and begging for the ball.
But in general I do think it's tough for Coby to drive & kick when Demar/Vuc aren't valid kickout passes, and we aren't willing to bench either. Just too easy for teams to collapse on us. Yeah Coby had a tough game, but the team construction doesn't do him any favors.

We still pretend Vuc is a floor spacer when he clearly isn't. He should be positioned similar to Drummond, let him get layups, at least someone has to guard him.

So the up to start Q4 was the "fighting back to get the lead part".

Not trying to nitpick; but, the Bulls formula hasn't changed since the start of the season. And that falls squarely on the coaching.

[FriedRise]

If AKME always saw Coby being this good, they would have started him when Lonzo went down for development. Coby hasn't started since around 2020. They started Ayo ahead of Coby for the last 2 seasons, and then Patrick Beverley. And all last 2 seasons they were hoping for Lonzo to recover instead of just getting off his contract and using that $20M for another position.

I think it's pretty clear they never expected Coby to be a starting PG until now.

Yeah I don't think they realized what they had in Coby until training camp. But Billy must've seen something, because he never even bothered starting Carter with the Mid 3 in preseason.

But this is in line with how these things happen when a player has been a bench guy for so long. You give him 15-20mpg and a quick hook. You pay him bench caliber money during extension with the expectation that he's gonna play those 15-20 mins. Reputation is hard to shake so you just can't help but see him as a microwave scorer off the bench, even though he's slowly added to his game over the years.

This is Year 1 and a breakout season for Coby, and he's seeing a LOT of different defensive attention he's never seen before. He leads the NBA in minutes played (#2 in total distance traveled), last year he was #155. I'm sure he can't wait for the AS break to get some rest. He's #35 in the league on total points scored and top 10 in 3PM so he's definitely on everyone's scouting report. He's #9 in terms of total touches, so he's up there with all your other first options.

Teams are putting their best perimeter defender on him, being physical with him. If we make the play-in/playoffs, he's gonna be gameplanned and possibly forced to give up the ball. Teams are gonna attack him and make him work on defense instead of letting him rest, possibly putting him in a foul trouble.

He's gonna have to learn, get stronger, get more physically conditioned, and keep adding to his bag. It's all a part of the process if he's gonna take another leap to become great.

[MrSparkle]

I’ve been holding hope for Coby for years. At times I gave up and was ready to sell for a FRP or bundle him… but the cheap extension was a no-brainer: real question is what would’ve happened if somebody came up with a $15-20m offer.

But it’s impossible to know. What I do know, is Coby’s the last remaining piece of the GarPax build, if you assume Zach’s not a core guy anymore… and they had lots of time to move away from him. I don’t think signing Jevon was an indication they want to move on; if anything, you usually sign a career bench vet when you want to put a little pressure on your prospect, but not too much as to permanently steal their job (classic GarPax move: Sato). It’s on the player to play to their potential to keep that starting position. Same thing with Craig.

But I’ve been hopeful for Coby, and saw some attractive ceiling the whole time. Like Lauri, he showed quite a bit his rookie year, and then struggled to follow up. He had some good (and terrible) stretches each season, and I was vocal about the over-the-top criticism (“he’ll never be a PG! 6th man ceiling”).

If I have to be honest, the offensive repertoire was never there, but as a quiet but effective defensive player, Patrick kind of showed what he needed to as well, in his rookie year. His slow development and tentative attitude has been really frustrating at times, but whoever tries to make some grand distinction between him and Coby is kidding themselves. Coby went througy som horrible stretches in his first 5 years, looking like a headless chicken bouncing around with no control and a terrible FG%.

The NBA metrics are super tough to read and gauge. Especially with 3P shooters. Like, Pat has the skill to shoot lights out from the arc. He’s been low volume and hesitant. But the coordination and skill are there. If he even just becomes a high volume confident 3P spotup shooter, that’s not far from Mikal on the high side, OG on the low side. So when guys like Lauri, Coby and Pat make ONE more 3P bucket in their averages… they can go from 34% to 39% shooters over night. In fact, that’s exactly what keeps happening with these guys. So everyone writes off these guys when these good shooters are making 33% while being low usage 5th options, while developing their defense and getting coached hard on skills and awareness, but we’re literally talking about one 3P bucket being a huge difference on a low-volume/high-impact shot.

Ayo is trickier cause he does have a fairly broken shot, but… I also see a good ceiling, as a well-rounded player. More of the Mann/Rozier realm, but who knows. We liked him as an Illini.

These kids play well considering they are still green. I’m bummed about the state of the Bulls, but it’s a little nonsensical getting upset at AK for “accidentally” having Coby blossom, and drawing the distinction that the other prospects are longshots. Phillips also legitimately looks promising… and Terry has a LOOONG way to go, but I also see worthwhile talent at the end of the road (fair to say he wasn’t worth the 18th pick… but he’s here, cheap, and has zero trade value, so as a 5-year 3rd string project, I have no problem besides for hindsight draft regret).

[Stratmaster]

They created the scaffolding for White to become what he is. That was absolutely the plan.....and they will have PAW, a top 15 pick and whatever we get for LaVine or LaVine....It will be much improved.

Nobody expected Coby to take the leap that he's done this year. Ask anyone here.

They weren't building with that in mind and if you think so that's revisionist history.

Going into next year they'll have to figure out contracts for DDR, PW and Drummond. They won't have any room to get anyone new and might lose Drummond.

The 2024 pick I hope is a good one, but any rookie they get will probably take some time. Zach will be showcased and eventually traded. For what....who knows?

Anyone who says they saw this coming from Coby before this season began is a bold-faced liar.

He was considered an afterthought and was constantly mentioned in trade talks by fans and the assumption was AKME would eventually move on from him. Last season the narrative was that he improved his handles and defense, but he was still a relatively minor bench piece and averaged the lowest PPG of his career at 9. Such a limited role and a very modest contract extension shows that AKME didn't think super highly of him either.

This breakout literally came out of nowhere, so to suggest the Bulls were building around him or orchestrating things behind the scenes to eventually build around him is absolute nonsense. If AKME ever did have a plan, and I'm not sure if they ever did, it was banking on Pat to become the next Kawhi.

To attempt to give AKME credit for having the foresight to see Coby's breakout coming is beyond delusional.

agreed on any credit to AKME. But, what is this unforeseen breakout that everyone is talking about?

In 2020-2021, sophmore season, 20 years old. Coby, Per 36, averaged 17/5/6. 15.1 FGA and 22.5 usage. He played in 69 games and started 54. He averaged 32 mpg.

This season he averages 19/5/5. 14.8 FGA and 22.6 usg. The only difference is he is shooting better, thus the 2 points per game. He has played in 53 games, starting all of them. 36 mpg

Turnovers almost exactly the same; overall not very good in that category.

Billy decided last season that Ayo should start instead. But Billy isn't very good at what he does.

People forgot what a streaky shooter and scorer Coby is and how good he can be when he is hot.

[SfBull]

Saying guys like PW and Isaac are immensely talented is really an exaggeration.Just 2 role players struggling for making the starters,in PW's case it's easier as he'll likely start when returning of injury even with the two twins experiment working out well.AK apparently wants to play him no matter how he plays .

They're lottery pick for a reason, they're physical specimens. They do have high ceiling talent, whether they able to put it together is a different story. But I stand by my opinion that both are high ceiling type talent.

They've got good size, length, and athleticism (moreso Isaac than Pat), but they lack the necessary skills that high ceiling players need such as scoring, shooting, ball handling, finishing, shot creation, and playmaking.

It's Isaac's 7th year and he's averaging 6 PPG and has never averaged more than 11. I know he's had a ton of injuries, but even before all his injuries his offensive ceiling was clearly limited.

That's not my idea of high ceiling.

PW was a high lottery pickjust because AK's stubbornness.There were better players available.
It was a waste of a pick and worse,we have to read posters exalting his game .He wasn't a starter for Florida State .

[Stratmaster]

They're lottery pick for a reason, they're physical specimens. They do have high ceiling talent, whether they able to put it together is a different story. But I stand by my opinion that both are high ceiling type talent.

They've got good size, length, and athleticism (moreso Isaac than Pat), but they lack the necessary skills that high ceiling players need such as scoring, shooting, ball handling, finishing, shot creation, and playmaking.

It's Isaac's 7th year and he's averaging 6 PPG and has never averaged more than 11. I know he's had a ton of injuries, but even before all his injuries his offensive ceiling was clearly limited.

That's not my idea of high ceiling.

PW was a high lottery pickjust because AK's stubbornness.There were better players available.
It was a waste of a pick and worse,we have to read posters exalting his game .He wasn't a starter for Florida State .

We agree on something

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[Dan Z]

I’ve been holding hope for Coby for years. At times I gave up and was ready to sell for a FRP or bundle him… but the cheap extension was a no-brainer: real question is what would’ve happened if somebody came up with a $15-20m offer.

But it’s impossible to know. What I do know, is Coby’s the last remaining piece of the GarPax build, if you assume Zach’s not a core guy anymore… and they had lots of time to move away from him. I don’t think signing Jevon was an indication they want to move on; if anything, you usually sign a career bench vet when you want to put a little pressure on your prospect, but not too much as to permanently steal their job (classic GarPax move: Sato). It’s on the player to play to their potential to keep that starting position. Same thing with Craig.

But I’ve been hopeful for Coby, and saw some attractive ceiling the whole time. Like Lauri, he showed quite a bit his rookie year, and then struggled to follow up. He had some good (and terrible) stretches each season, and I was vocal about the over-the-top criticism (“he’ll never be a PG! 6th man ceiling”).

If I have to be honest, the offensive repertoire was never there, but as a quiet but effective defensive player, Patrick kind of showed what he needed to as well, in his rookie year. His slow development and tentative attitude has been really frustrating at times, but whoever tries to make some grand distinction between him and Coby is kidding themselves. Coby went througy som horrible stretches in his first 5 years, looking like a headless chicken bouncing around with no control and a terrible FG%.

The NBA metrics are super tough to read and gauge. Especially with 3P shooters. Like, Pat has the skill to shoot lights out from the arc. He’s been low volume and hesitant. But the coordination and skill are there. If he even just becomes a high volume confident 3P spotup shooter, that’s not far from Mikal on the high side, OG on the low side. So when guys like Lauri, Coby and Pat make ONE more 3P bucket in their averages… they can go from 34% to 39% shooters over night. In fact, that’s exactly what keeps happening with these guys. So everyone writes off these guys when these good shooters are making 33% while being low usage 5th options, while developing their defense and getting coached hard on skills and awareness, but we’re literally talking about one 3P bucket being a huge difference on a low-volume/high-impact shot.

Ayo is trickier cause he does have a fairly broken shot, but… I also see a good ceiling, as a well-rounded player. More of the Mann/Rozier realm, but who knows. We liked him as an Illini.

These kids play well considering they are still green. I’m bummed about the state of the Bulls, but it’s a little nonsensical getting upset at AK for “accidentally” having Coby blossom, and drawing the distinction that the other prospects are longshots. Phillips also legitimately looks promising… and Terry has a LOOONG way to go, but I also see worthwhile talent at the end of the road (fair to say he wasn’t worth the 18th pick… but he’s here, cheap, and has zero trade value, so as a 5-year 3rd string project, I have no problem besides for hindsight draft regret).

Coby and Lauri both show that some players take time to figure it out. Plus, it's better to take a chance that they will figure it out then get a veteran who is already maxed out on what he can do (unless said player is a superstar or is that one "missing piece").