PG: Coby show on ESPN but fall short

[Stratmaster]

He doesn’t do the things you really need from a non-star center. Carlos Boozer was double/double king too. Vuc is the center version of him. We love picking up bigs on the decline.

Not really a good analogy. Bulls were the best W/L team in the league for 2 seasons with Boozer starting at PF.

Prime Booz would be great with Demar, Zach, Coby and Drum. That's likely a top 4 starting lineup in the East


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Boozer was not in his prime here and got outplayed by Taj Gibson a lot during that time. We was similar like Vuc, but more like efficient. Averaged like 17/10, but generally left you frustrated and was considered a weak link.

And just like Vuc he never made another all-star team after joining the Bulls.

I was referring to his best years in Chicago. You know, when he was starting and playing 32 mpg on a 62 win team?

People can get in their feels about hard hat lunch pail all they want. Again. Started and played 32 minutes for 79 games on a 62 win team.

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[Dan Z]

On that last possession turnover, after rewatching it, I think that's not the best decision by Coby making that pass. Vuc clearly didn't expect it. To be fair, it's usually Demar in those situation, so everybody is still figuring out Coby in that situation. Coby still has a lot to work to as a closer, both IQ and mental wise.

Despite Vuc probably not the sole to blame on that turnover, he's mostly bad throughout the game. He's still a 20-10 guy, but his efficiency continue to decline with age. I think the right idea of high impact aging center is somebody like Marc Gasol. You can't rely on and don't really need a 33 year old Vuc putting up 20-10 in your team.

The way the Bulls use him he should be better at three point shooting because he gets a lot of open looks. His career is .342 and this year it's currently .277. I can't imagine that's age, but maybe it is?

[Stratmaster]

He doesn’t do the things you really need from a non-star center. Carlos Boozer was double/double king too. Vuc is the center version of him. We love picking up bigs on the decline.

Not really a good analogy. Bulls were the best W/L team in the league for 2 seasons with Boozer starting at PF.

Prime Booz would be great with Demar, Zach, Coby and Drum. That's likely a top 4 starting lineup in the East


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Boozer was not in his prime here and got outplayed by Taj Gibson a lot during that time. We was similar like Vuc, but more like efficient. Averaged like 17/10, but generally left you frustrated and was considered a weak link.

And just like Vuc he never made another all-star team after joining the Bulls.

Let me make my point more clearly.

Replace Vuc with THAT Boozer and this team would have contended for the ECF even without Lonzo. Put him alongside Drum instead of Vuc.

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[Stratmaster]

If one of AK's goals with building this roster was to find a 7 foot tall player who can shoot well from three...well...he already had one on the roster when he got the job.

Or was it Vucevics passing that intrigued him?

Billy can't stand players over 6'8"

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[Dan Z]

If one of AK's goals with building this roster was to find a 7 foot tall player who can shoot well from three...well...he already had one on the roster when he got the job.

Or was it Vucevics passing that intrigued him?

They definitely saw Vuc as their Jokic lite as the hub C.

During his last season in Orlando his assists were 3.6 per game and this year it's 3.5. That's not bad for a center, but not someone I think you should run the offense through.

[Dan Z]

If one of AK's goals with building this roster was to find a 7 foot tall player who can shoot well from three...well...he already had one on the roster when he got the job.

Or was it Vucevics passing that intrigued him?

Billy can't stand players over 6'8"

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He seems to like Vucevic. I guess he's the exception?

[Stratmaster]

The pass was Coby was clearly too hot but there would have been plenty of players that would have made a tough catch.

It's all semantics anyway. Vuc was the reason we lost. I mean 4-16 and 1-5 from a C is almost unforgivable. Dude is a negative player and costs us more games than not.

Well if you want to assess the blame, absolutely Vuc played a pitiful game.

No reason to blame him for Coby's turnovers on top of that.

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[Dan Z]

Vucevic is 11th on the team in TS% at 53%.
Alex/Ayo: 61%+
Drummond/Derozan/Lavine/Coby: 57%-58%
Patrick/Torrey/Taylor: 55%
Vuc: 53%

Vuc is 1st on the team in FGA/36 minutes.
Vucevic: 16.5
Derozan: 15.9
White: 15.0

Taking the (almost) worst scorer on your team and coaching your team to have him take the most shots per minute of play is a big reason why we're still a terrible offense despite all three of Coby, Ayo, and Caruso massively upgrading their offensive game.

Vuc can't help that he's aging and now a liability. All he can do is do the best that he can when thrown in there. Whoever is making to decision to play him 40 minutes deserves the blame on this more than Vuc.

Some people have said that they wonder if a real PF (someone with size) would help Vucevic. They can set screens, battle down low and help with rebounds.

Maybe...I can see how it'd help, but I also have my doubts that it would completely turn him around as a player. I don't think he's bad, but I do think he has his flaws.

[Stratmaster]

Vucevic is 11th on the team in TS% at 53%.
Alex/Ayo: 61%+
Drummond/Derozan/Lavine/Coby: 57%-58%
Patrick/Torrey/Taylor: 55%
Vuc: 53%

Vuc is 1st on the team in FGA/36 minutes.
Vucevic: 16.5
Derozan: 15.9
White: 15.0

Taking the (almost) worst scorer on your team and coaching your team to have him take the most shots per minute of play is a big reason why we're still a terrible offense despite all three of Coby, Ayo, and Caruso massively upgrading their offensive game.

Vuc can't help that he's aging and now a liability. All he can do is do the best that he can when thrown in there. Whoever is making to decision to play him 40 minutes deserves the blame on this more than Vuc.

Yep. I like Vuc and defend him because he is another guy who, whenever he has a bad game is suddenly
"worthless".

But he needs a coach to protect him. He started whining about needing more touches in the offense the end of last season. He never stopped. He threw a fit after 1 freaking game, which of course got blamed on DDR and Lavine.

He can be a valuable player but you can't let him run the offense and the team.

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[Dan Z]

Quoting you from the game thread since it is locked.

Vucevic seems like a good guy, but his confidence goes up and down, plus his three point shot is terrible this year.

Maybe he should look at footage of his shooting from previous years? In 2021 he shot .400 from three.

since then he shot,
21-22 .314
22-23 .349
23-24 .277

Not a great sign. Also he only had one other good season as a .364 shooter in Orlando but it was on 3 attempts a game. Basically the guy was hot for a season and Orlando sold high and AK bought while high.

There's another 7 foot tall player the Bulls had when AK took the job. He shoot .402 from three his last year here and has never shot below .344. This year he's at .406 for another team.

Sigh.

[Indomitable]

If one of AK's goals with building this roster was to find a 7 foot tall player who can shoot well from three...well...he already had one on the roster when he got the job.

Or was it Vucevics passing that intrigued him?

Billy can't stand players over 6'8"

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He seems to like Vucevic. I guess he's the exception?

Vucevic identifies as a 6'4 guard

[Stratmaster]

If one of AK's goals with building this roster was to find a 7 foot tall player who can shoot well from three...well...he already had one on the roster when he got the job.

Or was it Vucevics passing that intrigued him?

Billy can't stand players over 6'8"

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He seems to like Vucevic. I guess he's the exception?

Nah. Vuc tells him what to do and Billy gets skeered when tall guys yell at him.

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[2weekswithpay]

Of course we had a center on the floor the whole game. 5 minute mark q2. Bulls up 46-31. Billy subs and goes with Vuc, Ayo, Coby, Caruso, Demar. Bulls get outscored 12-3.

And Coby, Demar Vuc wouldn't normally be the focus of the defense on the last play?

Pay attention.

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Still don't see the issue. The Cavs didn't have both Allen and Mobley out there. Drummond came in with 9 minutes left in the 2nd. Do you expect Billy to play him the rest of the 2nd quarter and then start him in the 3rd? He can't play the double big lineup all game and without another backup 5, you can't throw out the lineup whenever you want.

The only player the defense should be worried about is Coby. Why would they pay attention to Vuc when they've been leaving him open all game? Demar is only good at 3s from the corners and Ayo only shoots spot-ups. Plus you only have 5 seconds left.

I didn't say anything about a double big lineup. But when you get done picking the reason you are debating my point let me know.

Craig? Terry? Billy is getting paid millions of dollars to be an NBA head coach. I would think the least he could do is actually manage minutes and rotations to avoid 3 guards, Demar and Vuc.

You just made my point for me on the last play. Thanks for agreeing.

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Craig is coming off an injury and Philips/Terry are massive offensive liablites. Nobody guards them and they make it harder for the already bad offense to score.

The 3 guard lineup Coby/Ayo/Caruso/Derozan/Vuc has a net rating of +12. Why are you complaining about a lineup that's been extremely effective this season? Have you ever considered that Billy uses this lineup often because it works?

[2weekswithpay]

Vuc has had a double double in a ridiculous amount of games. Acting like he doesn't have values is just nonsense

This reminds me of when Westbrook was on the Lakers and he judged his play by how many triple-doubles he had.

Westbrook didn't have value?

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He didn't but Danny Ainge likes to blow up competitive Jazz teams midseason.

[Stratmaster]

Billy can't stand players over 6'8"

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He seems to like Vucevic. I guess he's the exception?

Vucevic identifies as a 6'4 guard

Pretty accurate.

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[Dan Z]

I'm thinking about the idea of AK looking for Vucevic to be "Jokic lite", which got me to look up Joakim Noah.

In his prime, when Noah became a bigger focus of the offense (in part because Rose got injured), he averaged 4, 5.7, 4.7 and then 3.8 assists (which was the year he got hurt. The following year the Knicks signed him).

That's the kind of passing I'd look for if I want to run my offense through a big (at least part of the time).

[Stratmaster]

Still don't see the issue. The Cavs didn't have both Allen and Mobley out there. Drummond came in with 9 minutes left in the 2nd. Do you expect Billy to play him the rest of the 2nd quarter and then start him in the 3rd? He can't play the double big lineup all game and without another backup 5, you can't throw out the lineup whenever you want.

The only player the defense should be worried about is Coby. Why would they pay attention to Vuc when they've been leaving him open all game? Demar is only good at 3s from the corners and Ayo only shoots spot-ups. Plus you only have 5 seconds left.

I didn't say anything about a double big lineup. But when you get done picking the reason you are debating my point let me know.

Craig? Terry? Billy is getting paid millions of dollars to be an NBA head coach. I would think the least he could do is actually manage minutes and rotations to avoid 3 guards, Demar and Vuc.

You just made my point for me on the last play. Thanks for agreeing.

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Craig is coming off an injury and Philips/Terry are massive offensive liablites. Nobody guards them and they make it harder for the already bad offense to score.

The 3 guard lineup Coby/Ayo/Caruso/Derozan/Vuc has a net rating of +12. Why are you complaining about a lineup that's been extremely effective this season? Have you ever considered that Billy uses this lineup often because it works?

+10.2 less after tonight. The +12 had Williams in it.

Context is everything. This isn't the team you go small against.

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[HomoSapien]

"Just slow down. I was sped up in the moment. I think if I slow down, I can make the right read," White said of the turnover. "I thought Vooch was going to pop to the 3. He made the right play by coming in because I had took on (Evan) Mobley. I knew he was going to be hard to finish over. So if I put the pass on the money, (Vucevic) got a layup or one of those little floaters that is automatic. My intention was right finding Vooch because he was open. I took DG (Darius Garland) and Mobley. I just gotta make that pass. I gotta slow down. I was too frantic."

As for the final shot, DeRozan, who finished with 24 points, had no issue with ceding responsibility.

"I love it. I wish it went in for him. Cob deserves those moments. He’s a big-time player, big-time shotmaker and creator," DeRozan said. "That was the shot. He asked me if he could’ve taken another dribble or pump fake. Man, I live with that shot 100 times a day."

We lost, but this loss feels different in a way. I felt like we were the better team tonight and got hosed by the refs. The intersection between Coby and DDR feels significant. I think these growing moments are often overstated, but this feels like a real one.

[Charlesareed]

Is it just me or has anyone else noticed as soon Mitchell got traded to the Cavs the refs has destroyed the bulls in all games played against them it’s insane how many calls they get against the bulls every game they play the Cavs it’s always pretty close til the refs change the whole game

[pipfan]

Looking forward to the ref report tomorrow how the call on Caruso was wrong. Yay

I can't believe we didn't challenge that. It was clear contact initiated by Mitchell (I think?).

Totally agree-why not challenge? It seemed clear to me
Vuc and the refs killed us, simple as that

I used to think Lavine and Mitchell were on the same tier-if they were we'd be a contender