Bulls vs Celtics 7pm CT

[MrSparkle]

Just watched highlights, but seeing Vuc stuffed by Derrick White in the post-up just kind of sums up my thoughts.

Coby/Ayo/Caruso/Demar are at the bare minimum, average playoff players (which for the record, means "very good" by NBA standards). Arguably very good playoff players. Perhaps great (TBD).

Vuc is consistently clowned. He's Euroleague caliber. Unbelievable how many better big men were let go.

[Ice Man]

Coby/Ayo/Caruso/Demar are at the bare minimum, average playoff players (which for the record, means "very good" by NBA standards). Arguably very good playoff players. Perhaps great (TBD).

Vuc is consistently clowned. He's Euroleague caliber. Unbelievable how many better big men were let go.

If the Bulls truly started four "very good, perhaps great" NBA players, the team would not be sub-500 no matter what the quality of its fifth starter. Plus, Vuc isn't *that* bad. As many have written, he's the next Boozer (Bulls version, not Jazz version). More along the lines of meh, empty calories than "oh my Lord is he awful."

[madvillian]

We have one good player (Demar), an average starter (White) a below average starter (Vuc), a good 6th man or spot starter (AC) and then a bunch of guys that on a 50 win team would be solid bench players and nothing more. Maybe in a couple years those guys evolve and improve, but right now we have a 35 win roster maybe 40 wins when fully healthy but as Doug pointed out in the offseason, we had pretty good injury luck last year. Obviously that has turned.

Like, it is what it is. We're still in that bottom 5 of NBA teams that really have no present and very little future. I'd put us above Detroit, Washington and Charlotte. That's about it. We might have a better record than those teams, but it doesn't matter, the 10 seed is closer to the lottery than a 3 seed talent and play wise. We're not even close to being as good as the Knicks, who have a bonafied star and a couple of other really good starters and then a bunch of great depth. And nobody would mistake the Knicks for a serious contender. Maybe a team that can make a ECF, but serious contender? Maybe if they somehow find another star.

The point is, we're going nowhere fast.

[drosestruts]

Coby/Ayo/Caruso/Demar are at the bare minimum, average playoff players (which for the record, means "very good" by NBA standards). Arguably very good playoff players. Perhaps great (TBD).

Vuc is consistently clowned. He's Euroleague caliber. Unbelievable how many better big men were let go.

If the Bulls truly started four "very good, perhaps great" NBA players, the team would not be sub-500 no matter what the quality of its fifth starter. Plus, Vuc isn't *that* bad. As many have written, he's the next Boozer (Bulls version, not Jazz version). More along the lines of meh, empty calories than "oh my Lord is he awful."

I think this might be an area a lot of NBA fans are slow to catch up on. I think parity and talent are at an all-time high across the league.

The #1 seed in the west will probably have around 55 wins. Boston will probably crack 60 but I imagine the 2-seed Cavs will have around 52 wins.

Nuggets last year were the #1 seed and won the championship and won 53 regular season games. Bucks were the 1-seed in the west with 58 wins.

2022 1-seed - miami heat with 53 wins

Low 50's can win you the #1 seed these days. We're still changing our perspectives on this. Teams aren't reaching 60 wins with any sort of regularity anymore, let alone someone winning 70 games like the Warriors (a year that 4 other teams had 55+ wins).

I do think you can start 4 good NBA players and still be below .500

You can start MVP caliber players and be below .500 (hello Mavs last year).

[Dan Z]

True, but it is also true that he is the Bulls' #1 future hope. That is a dangerous position to be in. Zach was there a few years back, as a guy who wasn't a #1 option being regarded as one by Bulls fans, and the backlash against Zach today for not meeting that expectation is something fierce. I would be unhappy if Coby suffered the same fate. Let's let him being who he is.

People are already pinning future hopes on Coby and Ayo. That will be a very underwhelming if those are our two best player. Coby White looks like a great 3rd option on a contender. Maybe a 2nd option if he takes another massive leap. He will never be a 1st option a legit great team. He would literally have to be Steph Curry level. Unrealistic.

This same conversation was said about Jimmy Butler.

So basically, don't write anyone off.

I agree with you, but would be surprised if Coby or Ayo reached Butler's level (6 time all-star who lead his team to the finals twice).

However, it doesn't matter either way because they don't need to reach that level. The Bulls just need them to continue to improve and then improve the roster around them.

[MrSparkle]

I feel like fan emotions swing too hard with guys like Coby.

He made a huge, successful jump this season. It's a victory 1 out of 3.

Still would have to take a big jump in overall consistency to be an all-star, but more-so a fringe star (prime Zach, Vuc, D'Lo, etc.). That would be step 2 out of 3. I think it's within realm, but obviously he needs to get at it next year.

After that, he needs to make an ENORMOUS jump to become a perennial all-star. This is the part that's really difficult actually, as defenses adjust their focus to you, pressure mounts. Some guys accept the challenge and keep getting better, surpassing expectations (Jimmy, Lauri, Brunson). Others make their 1-2 ASGs and hit a wall, decline (Zach, D'Lo, etc.). With guys like Zach and D'Lo, the star season numbers looked good, but I always had my reservations about their overall impact off the ball, shot selection and IQ. I actually like Coby's overall IQ and impact; he looks productive across the board.

Frankly, the difference between 3rd year Coby and 5th year Coby is night and day. Only other guy I can think of who went from total headless chicken to total NBA pro was Bobby Portis. That guy had handles and range for days, considering his position/size, but throwing him into games was like hazard waste. By the time he decked Niko, he actually looked like he was calming down a lot on the court (lucky for us, him and Niko found their best forms just in time for ultimatum trades). Obviously he's been a very good, improved version of himself on the Bucks. Long story short, if this is the beginning of Coby's success story, there's more (good) to come. Coby looked like a floppy pinball noodle, incapable of penetrating the paint, defending his position, and fouling 3P shooters on the pump fake like there was a reward.

Coby has made slow but steady improvement every single season. VORP, PER, TS, FG% up each year. Defense/off-ball/non-metric stuff is noticeably better, and he can handle high-minutes without slumping or losing the +/- game. This year his on-court stats are really high. So I think the sky is the limit, but it can still go both ways. It's really on him, good health, and continued development. Dumb to conclude whether he's a 6th man, average player, or superstar. He just turned 24, and I'd say his (young) prime officially starts next season, so at the very least, common sense suggests we're now going to get the 4-5 best years of his career. He is quite clearly a + starter right now, so I don't understand why anyone would suggest he's a 6th man. Not unless 2017's version of the Splash Bros was the starting backcourt, or backing up Shai/Haliburton.

[WindyCityBorn]

True, but it is also true that he is the Bulls' #1 future hope. That is a dangerous position to be in. Zach was there a few years back, as a guy who wasn't a #1 option being regarded as one by Bulls fans, and the backlash against Zach today for not meeting that expectation is something fierce. I would be unhappy if Coby suffered the same fate. Let's let him being who he is.

People are already pinning future hopes on Coby and Ayo. That will be a very underwhelming if those are our two best player. Coby White looks like a great 3rd option on a contender. Maybe a 2nd option if he takes another massive leap. He will never be a 1st option a legit great team. He would literally have to be Steph Curry level. Unrealistic.

This same conversation was said about Jimmy Butler.

So basically, don't write anyone off.

Jimmy Butler is not PG. PGs just don’t lead teams to championships. As good Rose was he was still inferior to Wade and Lebron.

[WindyCityBorn]

This same conversation was said about Jimmy Butler.

So basically, don't write anyone off.

Of course not. But you still have to play the odds.

Yes cf course. I only say this as I was of the guys that advocated that he could. Being a #1 option on a great team is so cliche anyway. It has no true defined meaning. That could be best scorer, best player. Not mutually exclusive.

Generally the best player on a team is also the leading scorer. High volume efficient scoring is basically a requirement to be superstar.

[WindyCityBorn]

People are already pinning future hopes on Coby and Ayo. That will be a very underwhelming if those are our two best player. Coby White looks like a great 3rd option on a contender. Maybe a 2nd option if he takes another massive leap. He will never be a 1st option a legit great team. He would literally have to be Steph Curry level. Unrealistic.

This same conversation was said about Jimmy Butler.

So basically, don't write anyone off.

I agree with you, but would be surprised if Coby or Ayo reached Butler's level (6 time all-star who lead his team to the finals twice).

However, it doesn't matter either way because they don't need to reach that level. The Bulls just need them to continue to improve and then improve the roster around them.

The problem is we need to get players better than them. How do we accomplish that by making the play-in every season. No high draft picks(unless we get super lucky in the lottery) andnot winning enough to convince any established stars to want to come here. Our current strategy provides no path to significant improvement in talent.

[Dan Z]

This same conversation was said about Jimmy Butler.

So basically, don't write anyone off.

I agree with you, but would be surprised if Coby or Ayo reached Butler's level (6 time all-star who lead his team to the finals twice).

However, it doesn't matter either way because they don't need to reach that level. The Bulls just need them to continue to improve and then improve the roster around them.

The problem is we need to get players better than them. How do we accomplish that by making the play-in every season. No high draft picks(unless we get super lucky in the lottery) andnot winning enough to convince any established stars to want to come here. Our current strategy provides no path to significant improvement in talent.

I agree with you. It's long overdue for this team to move in a new direction.

The current team will probably finish 9th or 10th for the 2nd year in a row.

Also, PW is now out for the season. He's one of the few players with potential to improve and I'm not sure how his current injury will effect that.