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Your offseason plans for the Bulls

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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#81 » by Guru » Mon Apr 22, 2024 12:13 am

dougthonus wrote:
Guru wrote:You must not have read what I wrote. I specifically said not to pay him 40M. I also don't believe the Bulls offered him 40M. This seems like speculation.

"A source said the Bulls recently offered DeRozan’s representative a two-year deal at a high annual salary, perhaps as much as $40 million per season"


What you said is you doubt it will take 40M and shouldn't go above 30M. Well, we've already got a highly credible report saying that's what we offered. KC Johnson reported it as sourced from the Bulls organization. What credible reason do you have to think it will be less?

Thematically, I agree with you in that I wouldn't bid against myself on DeMar to open up negotiations. I'd probably have started at 2@27M per year, and see who is going to outbid that out there, but I'd say that option is now off the table based on this report.

Assuming that DDR is available at the reported cost, are you keeping him or letting him go?


Does anyone have the video...because this doesn't really sound like 40M. It sounds like someone said something that sounded shocking and the shocking part keeps being repeated as the fact and only takeaway. High annual salary=a very big breadth of options....Perhaps as high as 40M-Inherently means probably not.

"A source said the Bulls recently offered DeRozan’s representative a two-year deal at a high annual salary, perhaps as much as $40 million per season"
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#82 » by dougthonus » Mon Apr 22, 2024 12:54 am

Guru wrote:Does anyone have the video...because this doesn't really sound like 40M. It sounds like someone said something that sounded shocking and the shocking part keeps being repeated as the fact and only takeaway. High annual salary=a very big breadth of options....Perhaps as high as 40M-Inherently means probably not.

"A source said the Bulls recently offered DeRozan’s representative a two-year deal at a high annual salary, perhaps as much as $40 million per season"


:dontknow:

KC Johnson, long known as the reporter the organization leaks information to, has reported that the organization is offering this deal. It's certainly possible this will prove to be inaccurate later on down the road, but it's hard to imagine anyone more credible than KC reporting news from an organizational source. His errors are generally of omission not of reporting false rumors.

Also, an important follow up to the quote (imo anyway) is:

For now, DeRozan is seeking a longer-term deal, but that merely be part of negotiations.


So DeMar, at least according to the report is arguing for the 3rd year. My guess is the high AAV is to offset the 3rd year and tie his end date to Vuc.

Either way, as I said, I generally agree, I wouldn't make this offer (I gather neither would you), but if you had to make this to keep him are you doing it? I'm letting him walk vs this offer or S&Ting him if I can.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#83 » by Guru » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:08 am

dougthonus wrote:
Guru wrote:Does anyone have the video...because this doesn't really sound like 40M. It sounds like someone said something that sounded shocking and the shocking part keeps being repeated as the fact and only takeaway. High annual salary=a very big breadth of options....Perhaps as high as 40M-Inherently means probably not.

"A source said the Bulls recently offered DeRozan’s representative a two-year deal at a high annual salary, perhaps as much as $40 million per season"


:dontknow:

KC Johnson, long known as the reporter the organization leaks information to, has reported that the organization is offering this deal. It's certainly possible this will prove to be inaccurate later on down the road, but it's hard to imagine anyone more credible than KC reporting news from an organizational source. His errors are generally of omission not of reporting false rumors.

Also, an important follow up to the quote (imo anyway) is:

For now, DeRozan is seeking a longer-term deal, but that merely be part of negotiations.


So DeMar, at least according to the report is arguing for the 3rd year. My guess is the high AAV is to offset the 3rd year and tie his end date to Vuc.

Either way, as I said, I generally agree, I wouldn't make this offer (I gather neither would you), but if you had to make this to keep him are you doing it? I'm letting him walk vs this offer or S&Ting him if I can.


I wouldn't do 30M. And I assume you don't have to.

But again the language is tempered several times and it's not really a report. The report is the Bulls have offered a large contract and he hasn't accepted yet. The amount seems to really be not much more than a guess. Maybe even from the source.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#84 » by MrSparkle » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:16 am

Assuming the 80/2 offer (or within 10m salary) is legit, I imagine they’d want to secure the Demar/Coby/Ayo trio (maybe Caruso, although you need to consider a FORWARD if you’re starting those 3) and nuke/recast the rest.

Keeping Demar does elongate the inevitable. A short-window resign for the sake of a resign doesn’t necessarily pan out (Vuc). Difference being he’s actually been a very good player, whereas Vuc is very bad.

But overall, while I like that trio… short of having Jokic, Embiid or Giannis, that’s not a 1-3 that’ll do any damage against rising EC teams.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#85 » by DropStep » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:19 am

dougthonus wrote:
Chi town wrote:Why trade Coby and Ayo for a mid 1st in a bad draft? Why not keep them and let them see what they can become outside of the meh 3?


I didn't say trade them for a mid round 1st in this draft. I said a lottery pick or two mid round picks, and I didn't specify draft. Obviously, you'd need to evaluate any offer depending on what you think you'd get.

The reason I'd look to move one now is that I don't think their value will go above what I just listed there, and you only have two more years before they are very young UFAs that are highly skilled on the open market. It's unlikely that you will be able to afford both of them and still have a good team given that (like literally expect max offers for both guys, see FVV).

So given that I don't think you can justify both those guys on max deals because they'll both end up heavily overpaid, look to get assets for one of them and keep the other. My preference is to keep Ayo of the two because he's a two way guy, and I don't think Coby is good enough as a scorer to justify being a #1 option.

In general, I think this plan helps you build something in 26/27 and beyond which is what I would be aiming all my moves at.


Yep, this is a huge question regarding the long term roster construction. Coby has improved his PG skills, but these guys are both 6'5"-ish combo guards, imo, and they may be on each other's corner a bit long term. Questions AK has to answer are: Do these guys make up a contending backcourt? (Maybe?) Are they the best players on a contender? (No.) If we keep them both, do we have the assets to go get stars at other positions to build out a contender? (No.) I think if the answers in parentheses are correct, then you should see what you can get for one or the other in order to boost our asset pool. Having them both is a luxury for contenders like Boston, not teams trying to figure out how to eventually get into the playoffs. I think they are each too good to project forward as a sixth man for us, but not good enough to be the core of a contender together. And, their reasonable contracts with two years left on them increase the chances that we can get draft assets back in return instead players already on big, market-value contracts, which is what we need if we're trying to eventually develop a contending core.

If they don't know, the Bulls need to figure out what they want out of the PG position in general. It seems to be in flux a bit, league-wide. Many teams have been throwing multiple combo/scoring guards at it, but some of them seem to want clarity now on who is distributing and running the show (Atlanta, and Boston with the Smart/Jrue swap, pop to mind.) The Bulls, of course, were thrust into the combo-guard solution by the Lonzo situation, not by design. Are they ok with it (likely meaning Coby) going forward?
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#86 » by SirKaiser » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:23 am

Seems pretty unanimous around here they we are okay with letting Demar walk (which I think we should do). However I think the FO will try to make resigning him a priority. The only thing that makes me think they won't is because of the recent comment about wanting to be somewhere he can win before his career is over. Cause we all know this team won't be fixed by next season, the best we can hope is to be competitive the following season (assuming a lot of things go right).

For starters, we let Demar walk. Lavine won't be traded anytime soon, so maybe he'll actually thrive without Demar's ISO ball. If nothing else, it will give us a chance to sell high on him, but I'm actually hoping things work out with him because I'd like to keep Coby as his backup. With the cap space we then resign Drummond and hopefully PWill, the latter of which will try to fill Demar's shoes.

We retain the same front-court but hopefully hit on someone decent with our draft pick. Continue to experiment with Vooch at the 4, and then have Drummond and the rookie playing the 4/5.

What seems somewhat inevitable though is that we should probably try Caruso at the next trade deadline.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#87 » by DropStep » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:28 am

SirKaiser wrote: For starters, we let Demar walk.


I think there was only one sign and trade last year in Max Strus. But, I would love to get something in exchange for DeMar - either a sign and trade, or a trade at the deadline once it becomes clear we won't contend.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#88 » by dougthonus » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:28 am

Guru wrote:I wouldn't do 30M. And I assume you don't have to.


So if it's 30M or letting him go, you're letting him go? I would agree with that assessment. I'm probably actually just letting him go no matter what (well really trying to grab a TPE or some assets in a S&T though presumably if the price is out of your range, you are doing the same).

But again the language is tempered several times and it's not really a report. The report is the Bulls have offered a large contract and he hasn't accepted yet. The amount seems to really be not much more than a guess. Maybe even from the source.


:dontknow:

Agreed, it isn't super precise, but also unlikely that KC is reporting 40 and its 30. I read the language as that it has some incentives in it, ie, it could be worth as much as 40M if the incentives hit and less if they don't rather than KC pulling a number out of thin air.

FWIW, if you agree with the incentive angle, max incentives in a contract are 15% which means for incentives to hit 40M, the base would be a minimum of 34.7M. Again, unclear language and incentives aren't stated so just a guess.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#89 » by Red8911 » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:43 am

MrSparkle wrote:Assuming the 80/2 offer (or within 10m salary) is legit, I imagine they’d want to secure the Demar/Coby/Ayo trio (maybe Caruso, although you need to consider a FORWARD if you’re starting those 3) and nuke/recast the rest.

Keeping Demar does elongate the inevitable. A short-window resign for the sake of a resign doesn’t necessarily pan out (Vuc). Difference being he’s actually been a very good player, whereas Vuc is very bad.

But overall, while I like that trio… short of having Jokic, Embiid or Giannis, that’s not a 1-3 that’ll do any damage against rising EC teams.

Demar,Ayo,Coby, and Patrick are probably locks to return. Obviously Demar and Patrick are free agents and things could go south but as of now Bulls want them back and these 2 want to re sign.

Everyone else on the roster (except maybe Philips ?) including Zach, Vuc and Caruso could be moved.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#90 » by Benedict Miller » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:57 am

The front office really screwed the fans by signing Lavine to a max deal and re-signing Vuc. Now they're offering Derozan 40 milI? I would've let all 3 players go for assets years ago. Destroy and rebuild. This regime has no vision and I don't understand why Bulls fans still support this non sense.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#91 » by Guru » Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:49 am

dougthonus wrote:
Guru wrote:I wouldn't do 30M. And I assume you don't have to.


So if it's 30M or letting him go, you're letting him go? I would agree with that assessment. I'm probably actually just letting him go no matter what (well really trying to grab a TPE or some assets in a S&T though presumably if the price is out of your range, you are doing the same).

But again the language is tempered several times and it's not really a report. The report is the Bulls have offered a large contract and he hasn't accepted yet. The amount seems to really be not much more than a guess. Maybe even from the source.


:dontknow:

Agreed, it isn't super precise, but also unlikely that KC is reporting 40 and its 30. I read the language as that it has some incentives in it, ie, it could be worth as much as 40M if the incentives hit and less if they don't rather than KC pulling a number out of thin air.

FWIW, if you agree with the incentive angle, max incentives in a contract are 15% which means for incentives to hit 40M, the base would be a minimum of 34.7M. Again, unclear language and incentives aren't stated so just a guess.


How are incentives counted in the cap?

I like DDR's game but I moreso don't want to lose the asset.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#92 » by dougthonus » Mon Apr 22, 2024 12:31 pm

Guru wrote:How are incentives counted in the cap?


At the beginning of the year, they are counted in the cap if you hit them the previous year and not in the cap if you didn't hit them the previous year. This is for how you calculate space relative to FA.

At the end of the year, they are calculated based on whether you hit them in actuality (this is relevant for the luxury tax).

I believe, though I am not 100% certain, that you cannot have any incentives that can potentially push you above the apron if they hit if you do something else that hard caps you at the apron (say you are below the 1st apron and use the full MLE which would hard cap you at the 1st apron, then you can't have an incentive that would push you beyond the 1st apron even if it is unlikely to hit).

I like DDR's game but I moreso don't want to lose the asset.


I dislike DDR's game (grifting free throws and mid range jumpers) as it doesn't really fit super neatly into the NBA and it's hard to build around perimeter players that can't space the floor due to lack of shooting. I love DDR as a person (great mentor for young players, great attitude, etc..).

You may agree or disagree, but generally speaking, when a guy signs a new contract as a free agent, unless they are in the category where any team in their right mind would max them, they are more often than not, not an asset after signing. The theory behind that is the no brainer max guys are constrained artificially in salary and thus mostly worth more than their contract. The other guys are priced at the price of the highest bidder and thus far less likely to be worth more than their contract.

In this sense, it is really unlikely to me that DDR is an asset that you will get anything back for if you resign him. You will get his on court value, but you shouldn't think that you will be able to parlay him into different assets for a retool or rebuild at a later period in time.

I don't put a lot of value in the on court value of players over the next two years as I see no path to move up the East standings, objectively, we will bring back less next year than we had last year, and our improvement will be based on the improvement of young players, potential addition by subtraction if we could remove negative players, and whomever we bring in at the min and in the draft, vs our depreciating assets which will be further decline of DeMar/Vuc as they continue to age out of the league and trimming of the roster to fit underneath the luxury tax.

I think the downward pressures will be greater than the upward pressures and we only won 39 games last year and 40 the year before. It's also worth noting that we were obscenely lucky in clutch games which is unlikely to repeat (we were extremely unlucky the year before and extremely lucky two years before, and lots of studies show clutch doesn't really exist and is luck that looks like skill with small enough sample sizes) that also can provide significant downward pressure, better healthy may provide an upswing if Pat and Lonzo are healthier, but the biggest injury is Zach and the press conference would indicate to me that he won't be on the roster at the start of the season anyway.

Anyway, there are always a lot of different factors that control how good you will be, and I've taken us down a tangent there, when adding them all up I expect the team to be a tiny bit worse but with a likely range of something like 35-43 wins barring any shockers over the summer.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#93 » by sco » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:14 pm

dougthonus wrote:So thinking about it:

My off-season plan:
1: Trade Alex Caruso for a mid 1st round pick
2: S&T DeMar to wherever he wants to go, look for either a large TPE or mid 1st round pick
- if I get the TPE, use it to take on salary and a mid 1st round pick
3: Shop Coby White and trade him for a lotto pick if available or two mid 1sts if available otherwise keep him (to the Spurs for our pick back and a future lotto protected 1st feels like an option to me)
4: If I can't trade Coby, shop Ayo for the same return and trade if it's available
5: Resign Pat if I can get him for 15M per year or less, aim for 3-4 years
6: Rehab Zach LaVine's value over the season and look to trade at the deadline (under the assumption nothing good is out there now otherwise just trade now)
7: If I can move Vuc for an expiring do it. If I can move him for 2/40M of dead salary and a pick do it (if something better obviously do that too)
8: If I'm still far enough under the tax to have room, see if I can use the MLE to take on dead money and get someone out of the tax for a pick.

Bring in whatever pieces you want that you think might have potential for the long term.

Doug, I was going to write essential this. I especially like the either/or notion of Coby/Ayo, I don't mind keeping both but I think our next squad will require a #1 option who can get his own shot, and that will likely come at the guard spot. And while both guys are minimally adequate PG's, I really don't see either best suited for that role. Now it's possible we get that out of the 3 or 4 spot, but it's tougher.

I'll also say, I know this is your plan, but as others have said, NFW AK goes for that plan because he'll wouldn't survive the rebuild and he's always known that.

My "AK friendly" plan would be to amass enough assets via your plan to see if we could come up with a deal for NY to nab Randle and one of Hartenstein or Robinson. A roster of White, Ayo, Williams, Randle, NY C has top 4 potential and gets us younger.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#94 » by Guru » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:26 pm

dougthonus wrote:
Guru wrote:How are incentives counted in the cap?


At the beginning of the year, they are counted in the cap if you hit them the previous year and not in the cap if you hit them at the end of the year. This is for how you calculate space relative to FA.

At the end of the year, they are calculated based on whether you hit them in actuality (this is relevant for the luxury tax).

I believe, though I am not 100% certain, that you cannot have any incentives that can potentially push you above the apron if they hit if you do something else that hard caps you at the apron (say you are below the 1st apron and use the full MLE which would hard cap you at the 1st apron, then you can't have an incentive that would push you beyond the 1st apron even if it is unlikely to hit).

I like DDR's game but I moreso don't want to lose the asset.


I dislike DDR's game (grifting free throws and mid range jumpers) as it doesn't really fit super neatly into the NBA and it's hard to build around perimeter players that can't space the floor due to lack of shooting. I love DDR as a person (great mentor for young players, great attitude, etc..).

You may agree or disagree, but generally speaking, when a guy signs a new contract as a free agent, unless they are in the category where any team in their right mind would max them, they are more often than not, not an asset after signing. The theory behind that is the no brainer max guys are constrained artificially in salary and thus mostly worth more than their contract. The other guys are priced at the price of the highest bidder and thus far less likely to be worth more than their contract.

In this sense, it is really unlikely to me that DDR is an asset that you will get anything back for if you resign him. You will get his on court value, but you shouldn't think that you will be able to parlay him into different assets for a retool or rebuild at a later period in time.

I don't put a lot of value in the on court value of players over the next two years as I see no path to move up the East standings, objectively, we will bring back less next year than we had last year, and our improvement will be based on the improvement of young players, potential addition by subtraction if we could remove negative players, and whomever we bring in at the min and in the draft, vs our depreciating assets which will be further decline of DeMar/Vuc as they continue to age out of the league and trimming of the roster to fit underneath the luxury tax.

I think the downward pressures will be greater than the upward pressures and we only won 39 games last year and 40 the year before. It's also worth noting that we were obscenely lucky in clutch games which is unlikely to repeat (we were extremely unlucky the year before and extremely lucky two years before, and lots of studies show clutch doesn't really exist and is luck that looks like skill with small enough sample sizes) that also can provide significant downward pressure, better healthy may provide an upswing if Pat and Lonzo are healthier, but the biggest injury is Zach and the press conference would indicate to me that he won't be on the roster at the start of the season anyway.

Anyway, there are always a lot of different factors that control how good you will be, and I've taken us down a tangent there, when adding them all up I expect the team to be a tiny bit worse but with a likely range of something like 35-43 wins barring any shockers over the summer.


I only disagree because he is an asset if he is tradable. If 40M is the real number that is untradable. If 26 is the number that is tradeable. A veteran team competing for a championship might be willing to take that on and I think that DDR can help them win.

From my understanding of the cap, and this could be wrong, if they let him walk they don't get that money back because they are able to push past the cap because he is a returning player. So that money/space/place would essentially just disappear unless they gave it to a returning player.

I love the diversity he brings and the clutch play and the off court stuff. Definitley not worth 40M though. That's nuts.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#95 » by dougthonus » Mon Apr 22, 2024 1:44 pm

Guru wrote:I only disagree because he is an asset if he is tradable. If 40M is the real number that is untradable. If 26 is the number that is tradeable. A veteran team competing for a championship might be willing to take that on and I think that DDR can help them win.


I don't think being tradeable makes you an asset. Being tradeable for something you want makes you an asset. There is also the question of whether you can eventually trade him for something more than what you could have done with the space otherwise.

From my understanding of the cap, and this could be wrong, if they let him walk they don't get that money back because they are able to push past the cap because he is a returning player. So that money/space/place would essentially just disappear unless they gave it to a returning player.


This is sort of true, but not entirely true. If you start with these assumption the Bulls are hard capped organizationally at the luxury tax (based on AK's comments in the press conference where he said he would only ask to go into the tax if he felt we were a top 4 seed, this seems like a reasonable assumption) then freeing up the money you would use on DeMar does allow other options.

You can now use the full MLE which you wouldn't have been able to do before, along with the BAE and other exceptions. You might not have to dump positive assets to save salary to avoid the tax which may be critical if you want to keep Pat Williams. You might also be able to S&T DeMar to another team and get something back in that trade or a TPE that you could use to then bring in another player free of cost later.

What you are describing is referred to as the bird rights trap though, and it is real. Generally speaking, it's far more straight forward to keep DeMar than it is to use his money in any other way. Especially if the contract is short. This is often a reason tons and tons of guys get overpaid, because the opportunity cost is often lower, but it does bite you in the ass because often while the opportunity cost is low for one season, it becomes very constraining down the line. With a 2 year deal that's less likely.

I love the diversity he brings and the clutch play and the off court stuff. Definitley not worth 40M though. That's nuts.


Maybe you are right and the deal will just be a lot less. If they can figure out the salary stuff for the next two years without major compromise then I'm a bigger fan of 2/80 than I am of 3/90 because I wouldn't want his deal hanging out a 3rd year.

My guess (as I noted) is that the high AAV is to get him to take a 2 year deal vs a 3 year deal.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#96 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Apr 22, 2024 3:53 pm

Derozan just doesn't make sense to retain.

It is universally agreed we don't have a team that can actually contend. AK said as much.

The only thing Demar does is cost us our 1st rounder next year by lifting us to the late lotto. That's it.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#97 » by dougthonus » Mon Apr 22, 2024 4:19 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Derozan just doesn't make sense to retain.

It is universally agreed we don't have a team that can actually contend. AK said as much.

The only thing Demar does is cost us our 1st rounder next year by lifting us to the late lotto. That's it.


Maybe their preference is to pay out that pick next year.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#98 » by drosestruts » Mon Apr 22, 2024 4:51 pm

if you wanted to see what the young guys could do:

trade 11 to the Pelicans for 18 and 21

Draft Tristan da Silva and Tyler Smith.

Re-sign Williams to a hopefully team-friendly deal

Explore what Vuc + PDX 1st can get you (trade to Washington for Richaun Holmes or something)

Offer the full MLE to Hartenstein and see if it's too much tax for New York

Explore sign and trades for Drummond and DeRozan (breaks my heart), at worst just let them walk

Trade Caruso and LaVine to Golden State for Kuminga, CP3, and Wiggins. GS turned down Caruso for Kuminga at the deadline, does a Lavine for CP3 and Wiggins swap tilt the scales?


CP3/Ball/Dosunmu/Carter
White/Dosumu/Terry/Bitim
Williams/Wiggins
Kuminga/da Silva/Phillips
Hartenstein/Smith/Holmes

We still have a vet leader around in CP3 (i do think there's value in veteran leadership that can still contribute on the court)

Young guys get all the opportunity they can handle. sink or swim.
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#99 » by TheSuzerain » Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:30 pm

We should just ride out Vuc.

Making him a featured offensive option next season is a perfect way to tank and end up 4th/5th worst (the sweet spot under new lotto odds).
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Re: Your offseason plans for the Bulls 

Post#100 » by Chi town » Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:47 pm

TheSuzerain wrote:Derozan just doesn't make sense to retain.

It is universally agreed we don't have a team that can actually contend. AK said as much.

The only thing Demar does is cost us our 1st rounder next year by lifting us to the late lotto. That's it.


We will see DDR take shots and money over wins.

I will be surprised if he goes. AK will massively overpay him. The only GM that will too.

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