"Big" SG or just "Bigger" SG: You Decide

[SensiBull]

From the time that we drafted Ben Gordon, there has been concern expressed by some that we were destined to field a small backcourt. Both players are, arguably, undersized SG's with some ability to play the point, as opposed to your traditional PG a la Steve Nash or Jason Kidd. This is the key point of the SG issue with out team. Either Kirk or Gordon needs to be paired, primarily for defensive reasons, with a player who, physically, presents like a SG.

Some have taken that to mean that we need a "big SG". What you'll find is that these posters inevitably propose trades, not just for SG's, but for actual 2/3's. Yet, others, particularly concerned about the Duhon (PG)/Kirk(SG) lineup, are satisfied with what Kirk brings at SG or PG, but prefer him at PG, where his size is less of an issue, rather than having him defend 6'5" and 6'6" players.

I am of the opinion that we have more than enough players who can play SF. I see no need to add yet another player to Deng, Nocioni, Tyrus, Thabo and Khryapa, although, admittedly, all three would bring a different type of SF to the role. For that reason, in my view, we need a pure SG. But, as much as I'd like to think it is, my opinion isn't the end of the matter.

This thread is your opportunity, before the trade deadline in February, to state whether you think we need a 2/3 or a 2, and to name ideal targets to play the kind of SG role, even naming names if you like, that you think the Bulls need.

I think we just need a strong defensive SG and a pure SG at that. Having some range on his shot, or, the ability to distribute from the perimeter/top of the key, is a plus, but not absolutely required. In fact, those three qualities, size, defensive ability, perimeter shooting and distribution ability, in that order, are my priorites. I'm thinking along the lines of a defensive, low-turnover SG, like Josh Howard or a younger Doug Christie, to a sharpshooter like Kyle Korver, young Dan Majerle or Jason Kapono, to a taller distributing PG/SG, like John Salmons, Roger Mason, Jr., Jamal Crawford, younger Larry Hughes.

In my opinion, the last thing we need is a 6'5" version of Ben Gordon, like Michael Redd.

What say you?

[p_s]

This is hard -- because I would trade either of our guards for a player that was more prototypical at their position.

If I had to make a choice, it would be for the tall distributor. He'd need to be able to break down a defense with his dribble and either create for himself or others once he got into the lane. Also, he would need to be a solid defender. I think Salmons is that kind of player. I think that's what we hope(d) Thabo will become.

[Rerisen]

I'm going to keep this simple. I don't believe you trade key assets for a pure SG when you need a post scorer so much more.

If you look at the list of desired attributes in the OP, Thabo Sefolosha actually fulfills the first 2, size and defense. If he can develop even moderately in the other area's he can do the job.

For players that already have size and defense but also scoring and distribution, they are just too hard to get. Even of those listed in the OP, many do not fit the roles. Korver, Crawford and Kapono, do not bring defense. Josh Howard is a All-Star, a young Larry Hughes is a borderline All-Star. I would agree Redd is not worth his contract or the upgrade from Ben Gordon if you have to give up any other contributing player. So how do you get guys like that without giving up a core member(s)?

Maybe you go after Ronnie Brewer, who Pax should have taken in the first place. I don't know. But as always I don't think this is our major concern. And to me, its not realistic Paxson would blow much talent on 'fixing' the backcourt compared to the frontcourt. Last year the Bulls had a statistically excellent backcourt, top 5 in the league in outplaying their opposition. So we saw that even with a 'fixed' backcourt the team still had major more important flaws.

[jump]

I'm not certain you can limit this idea to an either/or -- "pure" SG or "combo" SG/SF. To me, it all depends on what the player brings.

My favorite target at this point is Maggette. He can play both positions, but we would want him to play SG mostly. What does he bring that we need?
1. the ability to drive to the hoop and finish, or dish to a big man
2. the ability to draw fouls and make the free throws

I think he would dramatically improve this team by filling a huge hole in our offensive capabilities. Having him and Gordon on the floor in the fourth quarter would totally change the way other teams defend us.

[RyGuy24]

We really need a solid three guard rotation, minus Duhon. A guy like Maggette would be amazing. Minutes won't be a problem, just distribute them something like:

Kirk-32mpg/Gordon-16 mpg
Maggette-30 mpg/Gordon 18mpg

That alone would improve our team so much it's not even funny. We know Maggette would love to come because he's a big Chicago guy, and I remember how his parents said in an interview how he was a huge Bulls fan growing up and dreamed to play for us.

Now for the problem: We need to still save enough players to go after Gasol at the deadline, unless we somehow could pry a Brand/Maggette packafe from the Clips which would be nothing short of perfect. So for Maggette, you basically have these players to offer in some combination:

-Chris Duhon (i'm sure the Clips could have use for him with the pg position unstable)

-Andres Nocioni or Joe smith

-Thabo Sefolosha

- Viktor Khryapa

-Aaron Gray

-1st round pick or future 1st

I'd like to think somrthing could be worked out.

Imagine something like this (works on trade checker)

Maggette
Powell (nothing special)
Aaron Williams (nothing special..36 years old)

for

Smith
Duhon
Sefolosha
Gray


Leaves us with

Kirk/Gordon
Maggette/Gordon/Griff
Deng/Nocioni/Khryapa
Tyrus/Nocioni/Powell
Wallace/Noah/Williams

I'd be ready to go to war with that team, and you still have flexibility to trade for Pau or someone.

[SuburbanOasis]

I wouldn't give up Gray in that deal. He has too much potential to be exactly what we need to give him up as a throw in.

The clippers probably won't trade him either way. But if they did they would be just as likely to go for a Noce/Du/Sef trade as they would to go for a similar trade with Gray added. They have Brand and Kaman remember? Size isn't an issue for them.

[nomorezorro]

you need a guy who can

-handle the ball some (to take the load off of gordon)
-guard sgs (next to gordon and i guess hinrich too if he "needs a break")
-slash (neither guard on the roster is particularly good at this while both of them are typically pretty good perimeter shooters)

basically you need what we all hoped thabo sefolosha would be if he was good

[RyGuy24]

I wouldn't give up Gray in that deal. He has too much potential to be exactly what we need to give him up as a throw in.

The clippers probably won't trade him either way. But if they did they would be just as likely to go for a Noce/Du/Sef trade as they would to go for a similar trade with Gray added. They have Brand and Kaman remember? Size isn't an issue for them.

I've been trying with Noc since he makes sense for them a little more (can fill the scoring void), but I can't seem to get anything working financially.

[JordansBulls]

This is what we need to do.

Bulls Trade: Ben Wallace, Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni, Tyrus Thomas, Chris Duhon
Bulls Get: Vince Carter, Jamal Magloire, Pau Gasol, Damon Stoudemire


Bulls/Nets/Grizzlies Deal - Trade Machine

Lineup
PG Hinrich/Stoudemire
SG V.Carter/Thabo
SF Deng/Viktor/Griffin
PF Smith/Noah
C Gasol/Magloire/Gray

That team would be in the title hunt for the next 3 years IMHO.

[RyGuy24]

Explain to me why you would want a 30 year old Vince Carter over a 24 year old Ben Gordon for the future of this team. The production they will give you is going to be very similiar considering a 6 year age difference where Carter figures to slowly decline. Carter will give you 4.9 inside points a game. I don't think that's going to save us.

[SuburbanOasis]

I was going to completely **** on that last deal... but it isn't as bad as my knee jerk thought would have it.

It's basically trading Gordon/Thomas for Gasol and Wallace/Noce/Duhon for Carter.

Not sure how the other teams would feel about it (or what they give up to each other) but it's not horrible.

Probably doesn't make us significantly better moving forward either though. We wouldn't have a very good bench, and our guard rotation would be horrible outside of Hinrich/Carter.

[NLK]

This is what we need to do.

Bulls Trade: Ben Wallace, Ben Gordon, Andres Nocioni, Tyrus Thomas, Chris Duhon
Bulls Get: Vince Carter, Jamal Magloire, Pau Gasol, Damon Stoudemire


Bulls/Nets/Grizzlies Deal - Trade Machine

Lineup
PG Hinrich/Stoudemire
SG V.Carter/Thabo
SF Deng/Viktor/Griffin
PF Smith/Noah
C Gasol/Magloire/Gray

That team would be in the title hunt for the next 3 years IMHO.

Where do I sign?

[SensiBull]

Okay. Agreed that Thabo would be a good fit if he had lived up to his billing, but, to be fair, this is his second season, and a turbulent one at that. So, I do, like a few well-respected posters on this board, believe that Thabo will get better. I also agree that this person would, ideally, replace Duhon in the guard rotation.

In the mean time, though, it might be good to have someone, a veteran, who can play the role that we want Thabo to grow into, sort of the way Antonio Davis did for our young bigs a few years back (and don't you dare say Adrian Griffin).

Who would that player be? I like the idea of Maggette, although he's a little more aggressive with the ball than I would prefer. It's certainly good that he CAN drive to the hoop, but if we build an offensive strategy that relies too heavily on that, spacing will become an issue. So, I'd rather someone who is, like Gordon, a threat from the outside, but who can also drive to the hoop if need be, only as a secondary ability.

Any ideas?

[SensiBull]

Besides Adrian Griffin?

[RyGuy24]

Okay. Agreed that Thabo would be a good fit if he had lived up to his billing, but, to be fair, this is his second season, and a turbulent one at that. So, I do, like a few well-respected posters on this board, believe that Thabo will get better. I also agree that this person would, ideally, replace Duhon in the guard rotation.

In the mean time, though, it might be good to have someone, a veteran, who can play the role that we want Thabo to grow into, sort of the way Antonio Davis did for our young bigs a few years back (and don't you dare say Adrian Griffin).

Who would that player be? I like the idea of Maggette, although he's a little more aggressive with the ball than I would prefer. It's certainly good that he CAN drive to the hoop, but if we build an offensive strategy that relies too heavily on that, spacing will become an issue. So, I'd rather someone who is, like Gordon, a threat from the outside, but who can also drive to the hoop if need be, only as a secondary ability.

Any ideas?

If you're looking for someone cheap to acquire, i've always thought Damien Wilkins from Seattle was pretty good whenever i've watched Seattle games. His FG% is a little down this year (40%), but last year when I was rooting for bottom feeders (for the Knicks pick) I saw alot of him and was pretty impressed. Obviously he didn't get a bunch of burn (though 25 minutes isn't garbage minutes by any means), but he's got a nice shot. I can't really remember about his D, though.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/playerStat ... yId=279675

And one more bit on that JordansBulls trade, if we can get Gasol for Tyrus/Nocioni/Duhon in the first place we should just pull that trigger and see how much better BG7 looks when a big man gets a constant double team.

[Sonny_D1]

Thinking a little bit outside the box here, I'd love it if the Bulls can somehow get theor hands on Javaris Crittenton. I'm not sure if they'd be interested in Noc since they have Walton & Ariza at the SF position, but if they are, the following deal gives us our PG of the future, allows us to shed salary, opens up minutes in our frontcourt, and gives us flexibility in the draft as well as trade options next year:

Noc, Duhon, Griffin
Kwame, Crittenton, Karl

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/t ... &te=&cash=

Kirk/Crittenton
BG/Sefolosha
Deng/TT
Smith/Noah/TT
Wallace/Kwame/Gray

[whodey]

As bad as Duhon as been, why not just start thabo? If i remember right, he played a helluva a lot better when starting. It's better for his confidence also. It can't be that much worse than hinrich, and he starts the game with a veteran team.

Kirk 36 Duhon 8 Gordon 4
Thabo 16 Gordon 32
Deng 38 Nocioni 10
Smith 26 Nocioni 12 Thomas 10
Wallace 34 Noah 10 Gray 4

I would love to see us start the 2nd and 4th with a lineup of duhon, gordon, nocioni, thomas, and noah. They have a set role and know when they will be playing. Give them 6 minutes in the 2nd and 4 in the 4th together.

[Puertorique]

For a tall 2 the Bulls could have signed Dhantay Jones in the offseason. That is not as primary of a issue since you have Thabo who can come in and play that role. If you can get another fine but I'm not going to go out a trade a good asset for one just yet.

Go after the low post scorer that you need first.

[Rerisen]

As bad as Duhon as been, why not just start thabo?

I would start Thabo as well (at least over Duhon, actually I would start Gordon if I had my choice).

What is the worst that could happen. Thabo misses his first 3 or 4 shots (just like Duhon!) and we get down. It's not like you have to play him 10 minutes if the team is going into a hole. Just sub BG then. But to not even try it seems silly, the way Duhon is playing. We have tried this for 2 straight years now with the same dreary results.

[SuburbanOasis]

Honestly, if the only thing we are looking for is a defensive 2 who can dribble some and has a small amount of offensive trickery then a combination of Thabo/Griffen is fine.


What more are we looking for? If you want a real good player at the 2 who is big and can defend 2's as well as score then you are looking for an all-star caliber guard. That's going to take more than backup pieces to acquire. If you are looking for a defensive 2 who has some offensive skill then Griffen is the current answer and Thabo is (hopefully) the future.

Guys like Dhantay Jones and Damien Wilkens aren't anything special either. There are no easy upgrades to this situation. Unfortunately barring a major upheaval in team makeup our team has the best answers we will be able to find.