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Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson

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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#121 » by ScottyKCMO » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:58 pm

Luke NOT Luc wrote:
jump wrote:I'm with Luke Not Luc. Re-sign Gordon. For all the reason Luke sez. I can't believe the cavalier logic (no pun intended) here about letting Gordon walk. Mind-boggling.


Thank you! I'm not saying he's worth a max contract but it kind of saddens me to see just how much he's taken for granted. If he goes, we're gonna miss him a hell of a lot more than people think, and if he goes to Detroit, watch out, cause he's gonna be a nightmare for years


I have always liked Gordon, and I don't take for granted that he is an excellent scorer, and our offense next year will suffer a little without him, even with Deng back. But that's ALL Gordon CAN DO, AND ALL HE'LL EVER DO. Not to mention, he's only like 6'3". In the NBA, you can't have a starting backcourt with two guys under 6'3" and expect to win titles. You just can't. Our defense would continue to be horrible, and teams with taller guards would absolutely murder us for years to come. Look what Ray Allen and Rajon Rondo did to us in the playoffs. The other factor is that Derrick Rose is supposed to be our franchise player, right? Well having a guy next to him who can't play defense, and dominates the ball every chance he gets is not going to work. If we could keep Gordon at $6 or $7 mil per year, and have him coming off the bench as a 6th man, then fine, but that's not going to happen unfortunately.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#122 » by jax98 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 8:59 pm

Oh man.. Still on the 'Gordon is a bad defender' train? That's so four years ago!
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#123 » by Cliff Levingston » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:00 pm

Morten Jensen wrote:Cliff:

Why? Hinrich still wouldn't have a place here. IMO, Hinrich will not, and should not, be a Bull after this summer.

In that scenario, he'd still be the back up point guard and defensive stopped even though Henderson was here. Cliff Levingston just can't see the Bulls getting rid of both Gordon and Hinrich in the same summer but could see them later trading Hinrich at the deadline.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#124 » by theanimal23 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:01 pm

Cliff Levingston wrote:
jump wrote:I'm with Luke Not Luc. Re-sign Gordon. For all the reason Luke sez. I can't believe the cavalier logic (no pun intended) here about letting Gordon walk. Mind-boggling.

Let's no get carried away. There's plenty of valid reasons for letting Gordon walk:

- He's giving up a lot of size at his position.
- He's average defensively when he tries while he doesn't always try.
- He'll likely cost about $10 mil per year. Add that to the max deal Rose will eventually get and Deng's big deal and you've got a sh*t ton of money invested in the back court before even coming close to having the kind of frontcourt you need to compete for a title. Having that difference between Gordon's $10 mil and a decent but lesser stand-in for $2 mil or so (rookie contract of Henderson for example) could be the difference in being able to bring in that elite front court talent you need.

If we already had Bosh or Amare on this team then keeping Gordon is an absolute no-brainer. But where we're at; still developing while re-tooling and a ways away from legitimate title contention... there's plenty reason to opt for the cheaper/younger 2 to try to keep your options open.


Then deal Deng.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#125 » by jax98 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:02 pm

Cliff Levingston wrote:In that scenario, he'd still be the back up point guard and defensive stopped even though Henderson was here. Cliff Levingston just can't see the Bulls getting rid of both Gordon and Hinrich in the same summer but could see them later trading Hinrich at the deadline.


I think we as fans are underselling Kirk's point of view. He was a starting point guard for five years. I would be extremely surprised if he were to be satisfied with a bench or two-guard role. Since he has value around the league (and the fact that we don't need a $9 million back-up PG) I'd say he's a goner.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#126 » by AirP. » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:04 pm

Morten Jensen wrote:Oh man.. Still on the 'Gordon is a bad defender' train? That's so four years ago!


Well... had our SG(and SF) been able to rebound which is a defensive ability.... the Bulls would have gotten past the 2nd round. Our bigs didn't get destroyed rebounding... it was the lack of rebounding from our parameter players even with Gordon only shooting under 40% from the field.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#127 » by LoveDaBoo » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:06 pm

Luke NOT Luc wrote:
LoveDaBoo wrote:What I'm saying is that this squad will not come close to winning a championship next year, regardless of whether Gordon is a member or not. Let me ask you directly: what's the big difference whether the Bulls win 38 or 48 games next year?

I'm not saying Ben Gordon is THE piece that we build around and call our superstar, but I have no doubt he can be a vital piece to a championship level team.

?? So what? There's tons of guys good enough to be a vital piece on a championship team. Why is it so important to sing a guy right now for $50M+, when you have no real idea what direction the franchise is headed? Other than you seemingly have your lips stitched to Gordon's junk, of course.

Resigning Ben, keeping Noah and Rose and trading for an elite PF and finding a defensive SF would give us all the necessary pieces to win a title.

It'd make you a borderline team like recent Suns/Maverick teams at best, IMO. Unless Rose turns out to be superior to Chris Paul or something.

Are you trying to tell me that if we had Rose, Noah, someone like Amare for example, and Gordon that we would never win a title because we have Ben Gordon? Because that's just ridiculous.

We'd be unlikely to, IMO. And not just because of Ben Gordon. You're focusing on 4 players: one of them is Noah, who's a nice but far from dominant C. You've not mentioned any specific SF, but mentioned that we could win with a good defensive SF, so I don't figure you mean any type of standout at that position. That leaves you with an Amare at PF and Rose at PG. I don't see how that team's any better than the Suns were when they were making their runs. I don't recall any championships for those teams.

You think Gordon's so expendable? Great. Good for you. I happen to disagree with you. He's an elite shooter and scorer and Johnny Fish is not going to replace that. Not now. Not ever.

He's an elite shooter, no doubt. But he's not some transcendent player who you just dare not re-sign. The Bulls may never find another guy that can make circus shots like Gordon does, but they may well find guys who can score around 20PPG while giving them better defense.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#128 » by Luke NOT Luc » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:09 pm

Has everyone that has ruthlessly argued with me ever seen Ben Gordon play in person, or are you only judging from what you see on TV? If you go to a game and watch Gordon, it's amazing how HARD he works for every shot and how little room he has. He's making HUGE shots with 3 guys in his face and is bodied up hard the entire time we're on the offensive side of the ball. If you can get ANYONE inside to take some of the attention away from Gordon, he could be a 25 ppg + player, no doubt
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#129 » by kulaz3000 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:09 pm

Ben B. wrote:OK, I may as well get this off my chest. I can't understand the huge love for Terrence Williams. I just don't see how he has the offensive tools necessary to make a big splash in the pros. He certainly wouldn't be anything like a Ben Gordon replacement. He's built kind of like Ronnie Brewer but has had lower shooting percentages throughout his collegiate career. Brewer not only shot better but was a lot better a drawing fouls and getting to the line, something that's VERY important for the NBA transition. Williams is a poor shooter (I don't even know whether he's averaged 40% from the field over his 4-year career!) TS% down around 50% or a bit lower (over 4 years), and he only averaged 3.7 FTA/ 40 minutes in his senior (best) year. Those are not impressive averages at all. Even Corey Brewer, who was also fancied b/c he was supposed to be a lock-down defender, shot a LOT better in college than Williams did, and Brewer has sucked offensively in the pros.

Again, I just don't see it.


I don't' understand why you keep looking for a player to replace Gordon, if we're looking for a guard. Under the assumption that Gordon is going to walk, there are NO guard that are going to replace Gordon's scoring so what's the point of even bringing that "I can't see him as replacing Gordon" argument up over and over again?

There are things about Williams that if he fulfills his potential can exceed Gordon, and that is his defense, ability to play multiple positions, he'll be a better rebounder, and possibily a better passer. The thing about WIlliams is that though he at times takes bad shots, he doesn't force too many shots, and he is a very willing passer.

He is also has the potentail to be an excellent defender, and can guard anywhere from the point guard, shooting guard and the small forward with his size and quickness. I think having someone that can do multiple things without the ball is a great fit next to Rose who will most likely be dominating the ball for the remainder of his stay with the Bulls.

Yes, he isn't a good shooter now, but if he can somehow learn how to shoot the corner three or just shoot a decent clip at the 3 point range like someone like Bowen, then he'd be an even more fantastic fit. I just like his versatility and potential to do many things good on the court, though he may not do one thing great. Remember also, once he's in the NBA he won't be the best player, and will be around players that are a lot better than him, so he'll have room to improve his shot whilst getting good looks, so he has room to grow as any other player in this league. If we consider Tyrus's baby step improvements in his jumpshots somewhat of an achievement, then I'm sure T-Will can make similar type of baby steps with his shot as well.

Again, unless we're looking to trade up for Blair, no one in this entire draft is going to come in and score 20 points like Gordon can, so why you keep using the argument is confusing, because you can say that for any player that we'll pick.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#130 » by AirP. » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:16 pm

Info for fans on JR...

Overpaid for Chandler
Overpaid for Wallace
Overpaid for Hinrich
Overpaid for Deng

Drafted Tyrus
Drafted Thabo
Drafted Noah

Might let Gordon go

Scared off a player's coach in D'Antoni who WANTED to come and coach Chicago's roster

If you haven't gotten the clue yet... it's all about JR's thinking the last half decade... HE WANTS DEFENSE.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#131 » by Luke NOT Luc » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:19 pm

AirP. wrote:Info for fans on JR...

Overpaid for Chandler
Overpaid for Wallace
Overpaid for Hinrich
Overpaid for Deng

Drafted Tyrus
Drafted Thabo
Drafted Noah

Might let Gordon go

Scared off a player's coach in D'Antoni who WANTED to come and coach Chicago's roster

If you haven't gotten the clue yet... it's all about JR's thinking the last half decade... HE WANTS DEFENSE.


Oh, I get it. Too bad every single one of those moves except for drafting Noah was the wrong one
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#132 » by boogydown » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:24 pm

It will make me sick if we land Henderson. He is not going to resolve our problems in anyway.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#133 » by ScottyKCMO » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:25 pm

Luke NOT Luc wrote:Has everyone that has ruthlessly argued with me ever seen Ben Gordon play in person, or are you only judging from what you see on TV? If you go to a game and watch Gordon, it's amazing how HARD he works for every shot and how little room he has. He's making HUGE shots with 3 guys in his face and is bodied up hard the entire time we're on the offensive side of the ball. If you can get ANYONE inside to take some of the attention away from Gordon, he could be a 25 ppg + player, no doubt


You've got a point there....but it still ignores the fact that Gordon cannot play defense, cannot rebound, gets no assists, and doesn't handle the ball all that well. He is the definition of a really good role player/6th man. Early in his career, I wanted him to be the starter, but that was because the Bulls were in a complete rebuild and we didn't have any superstars to try and build a contending team around.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#134 » by AirP. » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:26 pm

Luke NOT Luc wrote:
AirP. wrote:Info for fans on JR...

Overpaid for Chandler
Overpaid for Wallace
Overpaid for Hinrich
Overpaid for Deng

Drafted Tyrus
Drafted Thabo
Drafted Noah

Might let Gordon go

Scared off a player's coach in D'Antoni who WANTED to come and coach Chicago's roster

If you haven't gotten the clue yet... it's all about JR's thinking the last half decade... HE WANTS DEFENSE.


Oh, I get it. Too bad every single one of those moves except for drafting Noah was the wrong one


Correct, but that doesn't mean the trend won't continue... in fact it probably means it will continue.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#135 » by Ben » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:28 pm

kulaz3000 wrote:I don't' understand why you keep looking for a player to replace Gordon, if we're looking for a guard. Under the assumption that Gordon is going to walk, there are NO guard that are going to replace Gordon's scoring so what's the point of even bringing that "I can't see him as replacing Gordon" argument up over and over again?

There are things about Williams that if he fulfills his potential can exceed Gordon, and that is his defense, ability to play multiple positions, he'll be a better rebounder, and possibily a better passer. The thing about Williams is that though he at times takes bad shots, he doesn't force too many shots, and he is a very willing passer.

He is also has the potentail to be an excellent defender, and can guard anywhere from the point guard, shooting guard and the small forward with his size and quickness. I think having someone that can do multiple things without the ball is a great fit next to Rose who will most likely be dominating the ball for the remainder of his stay with the Bulls.

Yes, he isn't a good shooter now, but if he can somehow learn how to shoot the corner three or just shoot a decent clip at the 3 point range like someone like Bowen, then he'd be an even more fantastic fit. I just like his versatility and potential to do many things good on the court, though he may not do one thing great. Remember also, once he's in the NBA he won't be the best player, and will be around players that are a lot better than him, so he'll have room to improve his shot whilst getting good looks, so he has room to grow as any other player in this league. If we consider Tyrus's baby step improvements in his jumpshots somewhat of an achievement, then I'm sure T-Will can make similar type of baby steps with his shot as well.

Again, unless we're looking to trade up for Blair, no one in this entire draft is going to come in and score 20 points like Gordon can, so why you keep using the argument is confusing, because you can say that for any player that we'll pick.


Are you perhaps confusing me with someone else? I just wrote a pretty long and, I thought, detailed breakdown of the red flags I see raised by Williams' offensive history. I had one clause-- a clause that, by the way, I edited and inserted after having written the original post-- saying that with all of his limitations Williams certainly couldn't be viewed as a Gordon replacement, and I inserted that clause after I realized that another poster had just referred to Williams as a potential replacement after Gordon walks. The rest of my post was all about Williams' offensive limitations. You write about "what if" Williams can just learn to shoot? Great! What if Blair just learns a mid-range jumper? He'll be unstoppable! What if Deng learns to shoot 3-pointers reliably? We'll be set! But my point was that players who shoot as badly as Williams did over FOUR YEARS of college rarely "learn" to shoot well magically AND learn how to draw fouls at a rate that'll boost his scoring average into the acceptable zone. Can you name someone who's done it? I can't, off-hand.

Tyrus is a bad comparison, b/c he had only 1 year of college ball. He already showed the ability to hit jumpers well if one watched him play in that 1 year, as I did, and he's worked on it a lot but he's still not really a jump-shooter. But he's also a power-freakin'-forward, not a guard (or 2/3 tweener). And Williams has been shooting poorly for FOUR YEARS already.

My first choice has long been DeJuan Blair, who's obviously not a big-time scorer. I'm also OK with Mullens (only b/c of his long-shot talent) and James Johnson (b/c he seems to have some interesting skill sets), but neither of them are Gordon replacements.

So, maybe you're thinking of someone else who's always looking for a Gordon replacement?
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#136 » by Luke NOT Luc » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:29 pm

AirP. wrote:
Luke NOT Luc wrote:
AirP. wrote:Info for fans on JR...

Overpaid for Chandler
Overpaid for Wallace
Overpaid for Hinrich
Overpaid for Deng

Drafted Tyrus
Drafted Thabo
Drafted Noah

Might let Gordon go

Scared off a player's coach in D'Antoni who WANTED to come and coach Chicago's roster

If you haven't gotten the clue yet... it's all about JR's thinking the last half decade... HE WANTS DEFENSE.


Oh, I get it. Too bad every single one of those moves except for drafting Noah was the wrong one


Correct, but that doesn't mean the trend won't continue... in fact it probably means it will continue.


I know. It's been pretty clear that JR is not the biggest BG fan. Never has been and probably never will be. It's sad. I don't know what BG isn't doing that people expected him to do. He was drafted to be a scorer and score he has done his entire career
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#137 » by ScottyKCMO » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:30 pm

boogydown wrote:It will make me sick if we land Henderson. He is not going to resolve our problems in anyway.


Blake Griffin probably couldn't even fix all our problems. We need somebody who is going to come in and contribute. I do think Henderson would help our backcourt defense, and give us more flexibility with our roster going forward. I like James Johnson too, but I think we'd have a log jam at the SF spot, unless we traded Deng or Salmons. I just don't see Johnson being a PF in the NBA. I could be wrong. I kinda see him as a poor man's Beasley....and I think Beasley is better suited to be a SF than a PF.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#138 » by The ROY » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:31 pm

smokescreen....

mullens is the guy.....

athletic c's are scarce
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#139 » by kyrv » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:31 pm

ScottyKCMO wrote:
Luke NOT Luc wrote:Has everyone that has ruthlessly argued with me ever seen Ben Gordon play in person, or are you only judging from what you see on TV? If you go to a game and watch Gordon, it's amazing how HARD he works for every shot and how little room he has. He's making HUGE shots with 3 guys in his face and is bodied up hard the entire time we're on the offensive side of the ball. If you can get ANYONE inside to take some of the attention away from Gordon, he could be a 25 ppg + player, no doubt


You've got a point there....but it still ignores the fact that Gordon cannot play defense,


He does play defense.

cannot rebound,


He does get rebounds.

gets no assists,


He does get assists.

and doesn't handle the ball all that well.


He is a long way from playing the point. For a SG, I don't know. He's not great. He's better than he was.

He is the definition of a really good role player/6th man.


Isn't a really good role player a good player?

Early in his career, I wanted him to be the starter, but that was because the Bulls were in a complete rebuild and we didn't have any superstars to try and build a contending team around.


I would suggest that Gordon and Rose looked good together - well on offense. On defense, Rose needs to get better, a lot better.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#140 » by Luke NOT Luc » Tue Jun 23, 2009 9:34 pm

ScottyKCMO wrote:
boogydown wrote:It will make me sick if we land Henderson. He is not going to resolve our problems in anyway.


Blake Griffin probably couldn't even fix all our problems. We need somebody who is going to come in and contribute. I do think Henderson would help our backcourt defense, and give us more flexibility with our roster going forward. I like James Johnson too, but I think we'd have a log jam at the SF spot, unless we traded Deng or Salmons. I just don't see Johnson being a PF in the NBA. I could be wrong. I kinda see him as a poor man's Beasley....and I think Beasley is better suited to be a SF than a PF.


So I've heard you rip everyone's ideas and critique every player brought up without any specific ideas as to who or what YOU think would be good for this team. It's easy to come online and trash everyone's opinions and every player, but at least provide some suggestions or alternatives

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