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Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson

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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#181 » by Ralphb07 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:33 am

boogydown wrote:
Posey H8er wrote:If we pick James Johnson isn't it much more likely Tyrus will be traded? I don't want to trade up for Henderson but if he falls to 16 I would be open to picking him.


No. Johnson is 6'8 235. I am not 100% sure he can even play the PF spot. I see him more as a combo forward, which is exactly what we don't need. Also Johnson is 22 years old already.

Here you guys go though

Dejuan Blair 6'6 288, Wingspan 7'2
Freshman - 11.6 PPG - 9.1 RPG - 54% FG - 26.0 MPG
Sophomore - 15.7 PPG - 12.3 RPG - 59% FG - 27.3 MPG

James Johnson 6'8 235 22 Years Old
Freshman - 14.6 PPG - 8.1 RPG - 49% FG - 29.1 MPG
Sophomore - 15.0 PPG - 8.5 RPG - 54% FG - 30.5 MPG

BJ Mullins
Freshman - 8.8 PPG - 4.7 RPG. Second half the season, he slightly improved putting 10.0 PPG - 5.5 RPG in 21 MPG.

I am still supporting drafting Dejuan Blair even though he seems a tad bit overweight. How far did Johnson take his team WITH Teague into March Madness? Same with BJ. They both did nothing.



Johnson is 257lbs
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#182 » by boogydown » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:34 am

23-7 wrote:
boogydown wrote:
Posey H8er wrote:If we pick James Johnson isn't it much more likely Tyrus will be traded? I don't want to trade up for Henderson but if he falls to 16 I would be open to picking him.


No. Johnson is 6'8 235. I am not 100% sure he can even play the PF spot. I see him more as a combo forward, which is exactly what we don't need. Also Johnson is 22 years old already.

Here you guys go though

Dejuan Blair 6'6 288, Wingspan 7'2
Freshman - 11.6 PPG - 9.1 RPG - 54% FG - 26.0 MPG
Sophomore - 15.7 PPG - 12.3 RPG - 59% FG - 27.3 MPG

James Johnson 6'8 235 22 Years Old
Freshman - 14.6 PPG - 8.1 RPG - 49% FG - 29.1 MPG
Sophomore - 15.0 PPG - 8.5 RPG - 54% FG - 30.5 MPG

BJ Mullins
Freshman - 8.8 PPG - 4.7 RPG. Second half the season, he slightly improved putting 10.0 PPG - 5.5 RPG in 21 MPG.

I am still supporting drafting Dejuan Blair even though he seems a tad bit overweight. How far did Johnson take his team WITH Teague into March Madness? Same with BJ. They both did nothing.



The dudes 257


CBS says 235. I can edit it, but can you give me a source?
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#183 » by BrooklynBulls » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:36 am

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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#184 » by Ralphb07 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 12:36 am

Yeah Draft Express has the official measurement listing on their site and it's ben talked about 20,000 times the past week, :lol:

I'm like Johnson agent I know everything u need to know about him
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#185 » by SensiBull » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:46 am

The role you'd be asking a James Johnson to come in and play is basically the role that Andres Nocioni played for us, and, not only do we have bigger weaknesses to address, but I just don't think losing Nocioni made so much of a difference to the way we play.

If there is a reason that we failed to win that 7-game series with Boston, I don't think it was the absence of a Nocioni-type player.

Now, if we could have had someone to defend Ray Allen better on the other hand.....
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#186 » by SensiBull » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:54 am

I think you make Derrick Rose the primary ball handler and just build a roster of cutters, rebounders and shooters around him.

I'm thinking at some point in the future, depending on his development

PG- Derrick Rose/Kirk Hinrich/Terrence Williams
SG -Terrence Williams/Kirk Hinrich/John Salmons
SF - Luol Deng/John Salmons/Tyrus Thomas/Terrence Williams
PF - Tyrus Thomas/Luol Deng/Brad Miller
C - Joakim Noah/Brad Miller

If you can keep Ben Gordon, that's gravy.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#187 » by dougthonus » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:58 am

SensiBull wrote:The role you'd be asking a James Johnson to come in and play is basically the role that Andres Nocioni played for us, and, not only do we have bigger weaknesses to address, but I just don't think losing Nocioni made so much of a difference to the way we play.

If there is a reason that we failed to win that 7-game series with Boston, I don't think it was the absence of a Nocioni-type player.

Now, if we could have had someone to defend Ray Allen better on the other hand.....


If we had someone to defend Ray Allen better and who scored as much as Gordon whom we would have taken off the court to play the guy who defended Ray Allen better we'd be all set. However, defending Ray Allen better while losing our best scorer for the series probably wouldn't have been all that useful.

At the same time, I don't think any player at #16 is the difference between being great and terrible for us. I think Johnson's a pretty lousy fit for the Bulls, but I think he's several tiers of talent ahead of the guys who are better fits.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#188 » by kyrv » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:59 am

SensiBull wrote:I think you make Derrick Rose the primary ball handler and just build a roster of cutters, rebounders and shooters around him.

I'm thinking at some point in the future, depending on his development

PG- Derrick Rose/Kirk Hinrich/Terrence Williams
SG -Terrence Williams/Kirk Hinrich/John Salmons
SF - Luol Deng/John Salmons/Tyrus Thomas/Terrence Williams
PF - Tyrus Thomas/Luol Deng/Brad Miller
C - Joakim Noah/Brad Miller

If you can keep Ben Gordon, that's gravy.


That's a horribly balanced starting five offensively. Expect defenses to pack it in, or just play a zone.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#189 » by kyrv » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:02 am

SensiBull wrote:The role you'd be asking a James Johnson to come in and play is basically the role that Andres Nocioni played for us, and, not only do we have bigger weaknesses to address, but I just don't think losing Nocioni made so much of a difference to the way we play.

If there is a reason that we failed to win that 7-game series with Boston, I don't think it was the absence of a Nocioni-type player.

Now, if we could have had someone to defend Ray Allen better on the other hand.....


What does the Boston series have to do with who you draft this year?

Was Ray Allen their MVP or something? Did you watch the series? (I'm asking, seriously, I don't know.)

I hope you are not implying that Johnson or Henderson or Blair, by themselves, is going to turn playoff defeat into victory. I if that is the case, they should be getting drafted much higher.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#190 » by SensiBull » Wed Jun 24, 2009 5:00 am

I think the notion that anybody has to be equal to Ben Gordon in total productivity in order to have the desired effect is definitely a straw man.

In fact, the entire notion that Ben Gordon could, in theory be replaced with a player of lesser value is precisely how the Bulls wound up getting into the current position of potenitally losing him. The idea was that we could get any number of people do be a one-dimensional three point threat.

The idea that his replacement had to be of equal total production to him didn't seem to spring up until I put Terrence Williams' name forward. That seems to be new twist in the plot. That suggests a gripe either with me or with Terrence Williams, but by no means has there been any popularly accepted notion that the player who takes over Ben Gordon's role has to be our top scorer....until now.

Otherwise, why not just pay BG his money and STFU?
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#191 » by DuckIII » Wed Jun 24, 2009 1:25 pm

kyrv wrote:
SensiBull wrote:The role you'd be asking a James Johnson to come in and play is basically the role that Andres Nocioni played for us, and, not only do we have bigger weaknesses to address, but I just don't think losing Nocioni made so much of a difference to the way we play.

If there is a reason that we failed to win that 7-game series with Boston, I don't think it was the absence of a Nocioni-type player.

Now, if we could have had someone to defend Ray Allen better on the other hand.....


What does the Boston series have to do with who you draft this year?



I understand your point, but let me take it in a new direction. It did matter to me and my draft preferences. The Boston series has had a big impact on how I view the Bulls' draft. I think even 15 minutes a game from a banger like Blair or Hansbrough could have made a legitimate difference in that series.

For me it was an eye opener into the poor rebounding and lack of good old fashioned physical strength in the interior in Chicago. Granted, these things were present (or absent, as it were) prior to the Boston series. But that series helped me see the light.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#192 » by RyGuy24 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 2:23 pm

Chad Ford's new mock today has us with Johnson at 16. No really interesting commentary.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#193 » by kyrv » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:12 pm

DuckIII wrote:
kyrv wrote:
SensiBull wrote:The role you'd be asking a James Johnson to come in and play is basically the role that Andres Nocioni played for us, and, not only do we have bigger weaknesses to address, but I just don't think losing Nocioni made so much of a difference to the way we play.

If there is a reason that we failed to win that 7-game series with Boston, I don't think it was the absence of a Nocioni-type player.

Now, if we could have had someone to defend Ray Allen better on the other hand.....


What does the Boston series have to do with who you draft this year?



I understand your point, but let me take it in a new direction. It did matter to me and my draft preferences. The Boston series has had a big impact on how I view the Bulls' draft. I think even 15 minutes a game from a banger like Blair or Hansbrough could have made a legitimate difference in that series.

For me it was an eye opener into the poor rebounding and lack of good old fashioned physical strength in the interior in Chicago. Granted, these things were present (or absent, as it were) prior to the Boston series. But that series helped me see the light.


Did it change your mind about Gordon though?

The series did put a microscope on existing issues. Looking at a #16 and making the judgment on whether the Bulls make up whether he 'would have been the difference' is a ludicrous exercise.

Boston can also look at that series and say if we had 15 minutes of <x>, we would have swept the series.

I think the Bulls can use Blair because they can use Blair. Not because of some magical retroactive going back in time invention that I was responding to.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#194 » by kyrv » Wed Jun 24, 2009 6:14 pm

dougthonus wrote:
SensiBull wrote:The role you'd be asking a James Johnson to come in and play is basically the role that Andres Nocioni played for us, and, not only do we have bigger weaknesses to address, but I just don't think losing Nocioni made so much of a difference to the way we play.

If there is a reason that we failed to win that 7-game series with Boston, I don't think it was the absence of a Nocioni-type player.

Now, if we could have had someone to defend Ray Allen better on the other hand.....


If we had someone to defend Ray Allen better and who scored as much as Gordon whom we would have taken off the court to play the guy who defended Ray Allen better we'd be all set. However, defending Ray Allen better while losing our best scorer for the series probably wouldn't have been all that useful.

At the same time, I don't think any player at #16 is the difference between being great and terrible for us. I think Johnson's a pretty lousy fit for the Bulls, but I think he's several tiers of talent ahead of the guys who are better fits.


Well put. I don't think it's fair to ask a #16 pick to be a series difference maker. We have enough top ten picks who should be doing that.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#195 » by SensiBull » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:37 am

I want to address the idea that the outcome of the Boston series is my sole determining factor for who we draft, and the related point that the outcome of the Boston series should have nothing to do with who we draft.

I don't think that it should be the sole determining factor, but our ability to get into the playoffs with a late-season burst, and then to be able to make a real series of it, has effected everyone's notion of how successful this team can be, as well as the viability of the model that was employed to achieve that.

I dare say that, had we missed the playoffs, we'd probably all be talking about gutting the team save Rose. I also dare say that, if not for the fact that the series played out more like a four seed versus a five see (rather than the steam rolling that the two seed and seven seed seemed more inclined to be) we'd be talking more about cashing some of these players with expiring contracts in for draft picks, a la Jamal Crawford and Eddy Curry's now infamous sign-and-trade moves for cash, picks and fledgling players.

For some reason, this board is relatively void of any such discussion, and I think that's largely because we as a fan base have been convinced that something about this team we just witnessed largely works, and I think, whether admitted or not, the competitiveness of the Boston series is the source of that confidence.

Perhaps that's misguided. Perhaps the sole reason that the series was so competitive was the absence of Kevin Garnett, but, although somewhat less noteworthy, it's worth mentioning that Deng Was out too. Certainly those factors don't completely neutralize each other. Garnett is clearly the better, but we're not the chumps I suspect we would have made ourselves out to be had the Boston series been so competitive, and that's difference between drafting someone to address a specific need, versus re-modelling the team identity in some significant way.

So, to me, the outcome of the Boston series has everything to do with who we draft. I really don't think it's deniable. It is, however, not the sole determing factor in who we pick, and characterizing my views in this way misrepresents them.

Defending the three point threat is an interesting charateristic of team play, and the notion that Ray Allen would have had to be series MVP is just the second in what appears to be a forming pattern of stratospherically unrealistic standards that my proposals have to meet in order to justify simple consideration of what is really only a practical issues (like suggesting thata the #16 pick has to be equal in production to Ben Gordon to be the right pick).

Ray Allen doesn't have to have been the series MVP to merit additional defensive attention, and ignoring a 51-point performance from him in Game 6 to set such a standard is really splitting hairs. It really smacks of opposition for opposition's sake, to be honest.

That the nearly all of our floor time at both guard positions goes to players who are 6'3" or less is a well documented concern on the defensive end. I don't think I'm breaking new ground to make that observation. I fail to see the controversy.

The loss of Ben Gordon is a real possibility. Adding a player like DeJuan Blair might help if we had the opportunity to get a do-over next year, but there is a strong possibility that the team we bring back next year won't look anything like the one we brought last year if that happens.

The thing about the three point threat is exactly that, that is, that is's a threat. Splitting hairs about the total points produced is like some small unarmed nation calling America's nuclear arsenal more dangerous than Russias, simply because America has more. The reality is that either one could wipe you off the map, and it's the threat of destruction, not just the actual missile count itself, that poses the danger and alters the course of the plans of other nations.

By proposing the drafting of a Terrence Williams, I am simply suggesting that having a starting guard who, like Gordon, has a three point threat, we keep a dimension to our offense that might otherwise be lost. Terrence Williams doesn't have to be equal in total production, and Ray Allen doesn't have to be series MVP, and Israel and Palestine don't have to first settle their differences, and the world doesn't have to replant lost South American rain forest territory first, or whatever other lofty, fictitious pre-requisite standards might further be suggested, before this becomes a legitimate concerns.

But if Terrence Williams isn't the right player, that could be true. I'm open to hearing some valid arguments as to why that's the case.

Everbody doesn't have to agree with me.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#196 » by BrooklynBulls » Thu Jun 25, 2009 1:55 am

Frankly, I agree with you in that grabbing a guy like Williams would be great if Williams turns out to be the player he hopes to be. But my idea of drafting Blair isn't specifically to fill a void I saw in the Boston series. Or even that same void, that I observed the entire season. It's simply because I think he's good, and will be good, on the next level. I think he has a shot of being a force other teams have to account for. Not simply because he can rebound, but because his hands are as soft as marshmallows, and he's cleverer than clever about how to get his shot off over tall guys. And he's doing this at a very young age, and out of ideal shape (though he's largely corrected that this offseason). I do have to admit, his knees scare me.

Conversely, I don't think Terrence Williams will be that good. My theory is that 4-year players in college, have to absolutely dominate their peers, in order to be considered good prospects. Williams did not. I don't believe Williams will be much of a 3-point threat. Some point out he shot a solid 38.5% on 4 attempts a game from 3 point land. I point out that Dahntay Jones shot 39.8% from 3 on 3.6 attempts a game HIS senior year. And today, 6 years later, he can't shoot the 3 worth a damn. A shot can ALWAYS develop. It's a skill that does not scale with size and athleticism, like so many others do. But in terms of a statistical z-score, Williams will be on the very tail end in terms of likelihood of it occurring. He's an atrocious free throw shooter, an atrocious off-the-bounce shooter, and he's good, but not great, at that 3-ball. So I don't think you can pencil him in for legit 3-point range at a productive percentage, so much as you can players like Ellington, or Curry.

This is the root of my advocacy for Henderson over Williams. Williams is by far the better passer, but I don't think his passing will be of any utility. If one is not a threat to score, passing becomes far less effective. Williams was a decent threat to score at the college level, but in terms of his draft peers, he is one of the lowest efficiency, lowest volume scorers of the SG class this year. And he's older than the vast majority of the class. Henderson, however, scores at better, if still unimpressive efficiency. He has improved his free throw stroke where Williams has not. He has the same athletic ability and defensive mindset, that Williams possesses, but at a year younger, I feel that his shot is more likely to advance than Williams'. Henderson is a better midrange shooter. A better FT shooter, as mentioned. A better off-the-dribble shooter. And that's why I'd prefer him to Williams.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#197 » by Ralphb07 » Thu Jun 25, 2009 2:26 am

Latest from DX

Toronto takes Holiday at 9 because he's rated higher on their board than Johnson


He think the Nets will take Johnson at 11 which makes sense as why they won't deal with us

If we can't trade to 11th I think we should just stand pat and use both picks

Take Henderson or Blair at 16 and use 26 on Ellington, Thornton or someone like that. maybe Gibson if we go guard at 16
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#198 » by mcmaximus » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:07 am

I've changed my mind about 10 x's on who the bulls should draft since March Madness.
I guess I'm a big flip flopper about that, but Gerald Henderson was the man I wanted to see in a bulls uniform after watching him play in the tournament...the only thing about him is that he's from Duke...I don't like Duke players in the NBA. Most are avg at best. Fundementally sound, but nothing spectacular about watching JJ Redick, Carlos Boozer, Luol Deng, Chris Duhon, and others.
I still like Henderson, but I wouldn't trade up to get him...Henderson could possibly fall to 16. If he doesn't Oh well; it's not like the Bulls don't already have John Salmons.
The Bulls should keep both picks, and draft the 2 best players available.
I'm starting to love Jeff Teague WF. His ability to attack the basket and score is off the charts good. Teague and Rose in the backcourt could be a dangerous combo...I'm fine w/ James Johnson WF, Tyler Hansbough UNC, or Wayne Ellington UNC. The Bulls could use the help off the bench from 2 first rd picks.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#199 » by Chi town » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:39 am

I can't find anything about Holiday being above Johnson on the Raps big board.

I don't think we will be able to trade up tomorrow though.
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Re: Bulls want to trade up for Henderson or Johnson 

Post#200 » by pa7290 » Thu Jun 25, 2009 5:49 am

i hate henderson so no, johnson isnt that good to me either.
i like budinger, tony douglas, jermaine taylor, marcus thorton.

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