Trade Derrick Rose

[Three34]

and then said that Derrick's high usage creates tougher shots, which can negatively impact his TS to explain away why Melo and Kobe also don't rank well.

Is there something wrong with that?

Yes. Because you originally used TS in a vaccuum, and only then clarified why it must be used in conjunction with usage when someone illustrated that other excellent players also have questionable TS rankings. In other words, you knew how to paint the more accurate picture, but didn't while being "sarcastic as hell" as you put it.

Its misleading.

Hey, you misread it not me. You don't need to keep your foot on the aggressiveness just because you misinterpreted. I presented non-contradictory facts that told a story and supported each other. Rose takes a lot of shots but is only doing so pretty averagely.

And once again, I used a certain degree of usage from the start when I chose qualified players only. If I had a vendetta, Rose would have been behind Trey Gilder from the start.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

Get Derrick Rose some spacing. 2% TS% jump, immediately. He has very certain flaws, flaws which could use correction- but a main one is the roster he's working with. It could not compliment him LESS offensively. Taking the talent of the players as an absolute (I do not contend that he has no talent with which to work...just talent that doesn't fit him), then I can't envision worse roster-construction.

I don't blame management- there was no preparing for Rose, and the rebuild really commences this offseason when 2/3rds of this entire roster disappear in all likelihood.

But here's my question: How can Derrick Rose, armed with a better jumpshot (according to 82games), taking more FTs per minute, actually be scoring less efficiently? Because he's having trouble finishing inside, and getting inside in the first place, because of the bevy of defenders waiting for him.

The guy, on a fully spaced offense, is a 53% TS scorer, right now. There's no real doubt there to me.

His jumper is going in 2.3% more of the time, despite him taking 2 more of them than last year.

The difference is that he's shooting 52% instead of last year's 58% inside, and he's taking a shot less a game inside, as well. I am wholly unconcerned with this statistic because the regression is not due to anything that is Rose's fault except perhaps the early-season achilles injury.

Good stuff. All things considered, I, and others feel its fairly silly to point out Rose's TS% in a situation like this. Sarcasm or not, its fairly weak.

My other problem with the stat is there isnt much wiggle room. The league is fairly packed together in TS%. So ranking a player is also fairly silly. Rose is 272nd in TS% (OMG thats awful) but a measly 2% increase moves him up around 100 slots.

[DuckIII]

Hey, you misread it not me. You don't need to keep your foot on the aggressiveness just because you misinterpreted. I presented non-contradictory facts that told a story and supported each other.

I misread that his 16th ranking was a combined stat, when in fact it was just usage. But the point is the same. You did this:

Rejoice, Chicago. After last night's performance, Derrick Rose finally became a more efficient scorer than Damien Wilkins. Up to 158th in the league in true shooting percentage! Yeah boy!!!! How about that!!!! Go to the true shooting percentage for all qualified players, find Brandon Rush and Andres Nocioni, and look UP UP UP!!!! Yeahhhhhh, rub that all around our faces. We need to suffer for our sins.

Rooooooo-sey! Roooooooo-sey!!!

Dropping specific (and crappy) names in a vaccuum of raw TS to downgrade a postive fan response to Rose's play. Then when another fan rebutted with your own tactic of name dropping, with names like Kobe and Melo, to show that your use of the stat lacked context and disclosure, you back-peddled with "well you gotta use usage" to explain the Melo and Kobe rankings due to shot difficulty - which the 16th rank shows as a "defense" also applicable to Rose.

[BrooklynBulls]

In terms of how "difficult" it will be for Rose to take his game to the next level, I'm going to do a little thought experiment that people are free to tear apart immediately.

First, let's assume that Rose is really a 79% free throw shooter, that he showed himself to be last season. There's a sample of 275 FTs backing that up, it should be fairly accurate.

Let's also assume he's exactly as good a finisher as he was last year. 6.9 points on 57.7% inside.

Let's also assume he's exactly as good a jumpshooter as he is right now, this year- 10.0 points on 44.2%.

And assume that he'll draw FTs at the same rate.

What this basically takes into account is a return to the "normal" in FT%, combined with a return to the normal in terms of slashing...basically providing an analogue for spacing.

As a result, Rose would score 10+6.9+3.1 (fts)= 20 points a game exactly.

Efficiency? It would take him 3.9 fta, 11.3 jumpers, and 6 layups to get that 20 points. Translating into a TS% of 52.8%.

So...yeah, I guess you could say I'm bored.

[Three34]

Dropping specific (and crappy) names in a vaccuum of raw TS to downgrade a postive fan response to Rose's play.

To make a lame funny,

Then when another fan rebutted with your own tactic of name dropping, with names like Kobe and Melo, to show that your use of the stat lacked context and disclosure, you back-peddled with "well you gotta use usage" to explain the Melo and Kobe rankings due to shot difficulty

The usage was used to explain their low rankings due to the anomalous presence of players liek Bonner and Dampier, which Chicago Bull E thought (pretended) were relevant.

which the 16th rank shows as a "defense" also applicable to Rose.

It's not an especially strong defense, considering that they own Rose once usage is factored in. Rose is 16th and 272nd. Anthony is 3rd and 81st. James is 4th and 36th. Bryant is 5th and 157th. Those are far ahead.

If the issue here lies in the fact that the initial post was not completely totally and emphatically forthright enough, then, um, sorry.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

If the issue here lies in the fact that the initial post was not completely totally and emphatically forthright enough, then, um, sorry.

Well, that and theres the issue of you deciding to take a dump in everyones cereal with an isolated stat, called out on by Poohdini, issues addressed by BB and agreed upon by yourself. A stat which circumstantially doesnt mean much when assessing Rose.

[Three34]

How can it not mean a lot? It needs context in the same way that every stat does. But we all know those contexts, the roster makeup, the poor outside shooting, his hurty leg, impeccably bouffanted incompetent Italian head coaches, roster made up of players who can't and won't throw outlets passes, the starting centre being the best player at running ont he break, etc. But the stat's still right, and it's a pity.

The stat states that Rose has not scored efficiently. The stat is right. How long the stat's half-life is, we'll wait and see. Hopefully it's not long, and he is trending upwards.

[BrooklynBulls]

A tidbit of what is frequently looked over when deciding a player's efficiency is his turnovers. Derrick Rose has a very good 12.9% turnover rate, which is 11th of 43 qualifying guards (I used 4 assists as my barrier...you're not a distributing guard unless you get at least that). He rivals Chris Paul in this aspect. That lends more to his efficiency, tells a little bit more of the story. Which is not to say he's an efficient scorer. But it adds a little shadow to the somewhat bleak TS% picture.

[Chicago-Bull-E]

How can it not mean a lot? It needs context in the same way that every stat does. But we all know those contexts, the roster makeup, the poor outside shooting, his hurty leg, impeccably bouffanted incompetent Italian head coaches, roster made up of players who can't and won't throw outlets passes, the starting centre being the best player at running ont he break, etc. But the stat's still right, and it's a pity.

The stat states that Rose has not scored efficiently. The stat is right. How long the stat's half-life is, we'll wait and see. Hopefully it's not long, and he is trending upwards.

In the context of Rose's play and production on the year, it does mean something. In the assessment of Rose as a player, I think it means very little. Those 2 are very different, arent they?

[Chicago-Bull-E]

So...yeah, I guess you could say I'm bored.

Im at work and incredibly bored on this saturday morning. Made a Deng assessment thread, hope you guys dont mind. Hasnt really been talked about in a while.

[jax98]

the starting centre being the best player at running ont he break, etc.

This doesn't get enough press around here. This is a major problem. Noah is essentially playing like a small forward these days, in terms of being the first front-court player participating in fast breaks, and filling the lanes.

Derrick desperately needs a legitimate running mate who is more offensive capable than Noah. We thought Tyrus would be it, but.. well, you know.

[Kyben36]

Derrick is the only player on this team worth keeping, so Hell no, he is on a low salary, which realy helps us, he is a killer player, the players that should be moved are everyone but him and Noah, and build around him.

[Jvaughn]

This thread fails with ruthlessness.

+1 Good Bump. Sorry guys - you need your faces rubbed in this.

Oh god thank you guys. I was looking for this thread but couldn't find it. Feel so good doesn't it Rose supporters. Lets just bask in it for a while.

[Joel Embust]

the starting centre being the best player at running ont he break, etc.

This doesn't get enough press around here. This is a major problem. Noah is essentially playing like a small forward these days, in terms of being the first front-court player participating in fast breaks, and filling the lanes.

Derrick desperately needs a legitimate running mate who is more offensive capable than Noah. We thought Tyrus would be it, but.. well, you know.

Rudy Gay is available.

[sdeezy]

I won't speak on the other posters who do want Rose gone. For myself, the reason why I don't like Rose as a 1st, 2nd or maybe even 3rd option, a leader, or a player is because he's frustrating to watch. Much more frustrating than Tyrus Thomas. I have stated why I want him gone, and little of it has to do with his production, but more to do with the way he plays the game, his personality, his BBall IQ, etc.

I've said it since he was drafted. I suggest some people stop insulting those who want the hometown kid gone before we pay him a trillion dollars to be the face of the franchise in which he doesn't have the goods to do that. I rather get ballplayers.

wow..lol

[Rerisen]

Is one good game really the time to go waging a war on behalf of Derrick Rose's greatness? Or against his weaknesses? When just the very last game before the one being praised, it took him 24 shots to score only 23 points?

If anything it shows a bit of insecurity and lack of faith in Derrick's ability. Can we let the guy develop?

Some ridiculous overwhelming number like 99% of the people on this forum would not want to trade Derrick Rose short of very extreme circumstances. Might as well bump 2 year old "draft Michael Beasley" posts for all the relevance this thread has.

[Jvaughn]

I won't speak on the other posters who do want Rose gone. For myself, the reason why I don't like Rose as a 1st, 2nd or maybe even 3rd option, a leader, or a player is because he's frustrating to watch. Much more frustrating than Tyrus Thomas. I have stated why I want him gone, and little of it has to do with his production, but more to do with the way he plays the game, his personality, his BBall IQ, etc.

I've said it since he was drafted. I suggest some people stop insulting those who want the hometown kid gone before we pay him a trillion dollars to be the face of the franchise in which he doesn't have the goods to do that. I rather get ballplayers.

wow..lol

ummm.........huh? Did i miss something. Since when is Rose less talented than a 3rd option? Wow some people just don't get it I guess.

[nitric0]

I can't believe people wanted him traded when he was injured, lmao shows who the fake fans are

[Shill]

But he does not have superstar potential because there's too much he can't do.

I disagree with this.

Rose may not develop into a superstar (considering how rare they are, the odds are against him), but he has the potential. But I suppose it depends on how you define superstar.

[Shill]

Is one good game really the time to go waging a war on behalf of Derrick Rose's greatness? Or against his weaknesses? When just the very last game before the one being praised, it took him 24 shots to score only 23 points?

If anything it shows a bit of insecurity and lack of faith in Derrick's ability. Can we let the guy develop?

Some ridiculous overwhelming number like 99% of the people on this forum would not want to trade Derrick Rose short of very extreme circumstances. Might as well bump 2 year old "draft Michael Beasley" posts for all the relevance this thread has.

DO IT!