KC: Bulls Would Have Pulled BG Offer Regardless of Deadline

[coldfish]

I guess we have to go there.

Let's forget Hinrich, Nocioni, Wallace and Deng and their contracts. Right now, Gordon is better than Derrick Rose overall and on offense, he obviously really helped him.

The defense was fine with Gordon at SG. Many people kept pointing this out over and over and over. There are 3 physical facets to defense, speed, height and strength. On two of those characteristics, Gordon was exemplary. He didn't get backed down and he didn't get beaten with speed. The problem with the Bulls defense is at PG, because Rose sucks and in the paint. That's why the Bulls defense is worse this year than last, despite changing the 2/3 to Salmons/Deng. The 2/3 defense wasn't the problem.

The Bulls could have given Gordon $9M to Gordon and forgot about the SG position for 6 years and dealt with more pressing problems.

The Bulls **** up. I really don't see how this can be debated. Right now, Hinrich isn't in Gordon's league as far as contribution and they are paying him the same amount and likely will for several more years.

This was one of the worst personnel evaluations I have ever seen in professional sports. I can't believe people still hang with the management line.

[Magilla_Gorilla]

Disrespectful to him. Never understood their stance with BG. As for the pulled offer, I've heard they decided they made a mistake even offering it to him so even if he said he wanted to sign it, the offer was going to be pulled.

[/quote]



Pretty much what many of us have been saying. The Bulls decided they didn't want Gordon. End of story.

[dougthonus]

Just when I wrote an article defending management, I have to take it all back.

[JOHN]

Doug I expected better from you.

[transplant]

IMO, the drafting of Derrick Rose made Gordon expendable, at least in the FO's minds:

- Gordon's most valuable (and outrageous) talent is crunch time scoring, particularly with time running down. Going forward, this role belongs to Rose.

- While with Hinrich at PG, we could have Ben guard PGs, avoiding mismatches. We can't (or don't want to) do this with Rose.

The drafting of Rose, also made Hinrich expendable, but for the more obvious reason. Hinrich's still here for several reasons, chief among them the ability to play both guard positions, defense and a shorter (remaining) contract length.

[Neusch23]

I have said for a long time that he doesn't fit what we are trying to do.

This isn't about favorites, or who was the best, it is about the plan for the future, and how we are going to get there.

Now, many of us wonder what that plan is, but it is a business, and while Gordon is a good basketball player I am very confident that they had major concerns on defense, especially once BG got older.

The orginal poster pointed out a few of the times he was pulled from the starting line up. This is done for a reason. If you break down the tape, you will see that while he isn't a horrible defender, having a player of that size, who isn't half as much agressive on D as he is on O, who is no where near the average for size causes a problem.

It did even before we had rose here. It is a double edged sword. He is far and away our best scorer. We needed him out there to make baskets. However, he is a nightmare for a defensive plan, because he is the weak link. However he creates a mismatch on the other side as well.

Most of us know we have generally always been more about D, than O. Which was a major factor behind trading Aldridge....Even though we KNEW we needed a post player who could score.

On BG, I have to say that I agree with the Bulls. I believe it was the right choice to let him walk. Looks crazy now, but in the long run I hope we can bring in the right mix of players, get a starting line up and bench crew that we don't have to constantly shuffle. It would be nice.

[DASMACKDOWN]

It goes all along with my theory that JR just was a Gordon hater.

I don't know exactly when this happened.

It couldn't have been his first season because Gordon was a Chicago darling at that point.

Maybe his second season when he didnt make a huge leap in production?

I doubt it was from his 3rd season when he was at his best and we made it to the second round.

That leads you to the 4th season where Gordon was still the best Bulls but the Bulls were horrible - and you kept hearing words like selfish. Im guessing directed at Gordon.

If you are hearing that the Bulls even regretted offering him the contract, that means sometime during his 4th season, Gordon was basically invisible to JR.

Kirk is and still is always held in high regard and Deng was a nice kid so they got the benefit of the doubt. When they played poorly that year.

Ben has never even come close to the horrible seasons both Deng and Kirk have shown but you would think he had the worst season ever.

Its sickening that this seems to always happen with the Bulls.

At this point right now I only pray that a miracle happens with us that its so good even JR and GarPax couldnt screw it up.

Because we all know its not going to come from them planning and developing it.

[JOHN]

The only thing that can hurt them is ticket sales and merchandise.Still though nothing will change with the Gar Paxdorf in charge.But it would be wise not to give them any more of your hard earned money.

They took the fans for granted and we can't allow any more sheeps at the UC.This is a fuqin disgrace.They've tarnished the legacy Jordan left which was winning,effort,playing tough with pride.

These traits cannot be seen on the Bulls floor.At least not from the Bulls teams.

[JOHN]

It goes all along with my theory that JR just was a Gordon hater.

I don't know exactly when this happened.

It couldn't have been his first season because Gordon was a Chicago darling at that point.

Maybe his second season when he didnt make a huge leap in production?

I doubt it was from his 3rd season when he was at his best and we made it to the second round.

That leads you to the 4th season where Gordon was still the best Bulls but the Bulls were horrible - and you kept hearing words like selfish. Im guessing directed at Gordon.

If you are hearing that the Bulls even regretted offering him the contract, that means sometime during his 4th season, Gordon was basically invisible to JR.

Kirk is and still is always held in high regard and Deng was a nice kid so they got the benefit of the doubt. When they played poorly that year.

Ben has never even come close to the horrible seasons both Deng and Kirk have shown but you would think he had the worst season ever.

Its sickening that this seems to always happen with the Bulls.

At this point right now I only pray that a miracle happens with us that its so good even JR and GarPax couldnt screw it up.

Because we all know its not going to come from them planning and developing it.

Switch Beasley's and Derrick's personality.Do you think they still select Rose?I doubt.be a good kid,be a yes man,do not cause trouble and you have a future with this team.

Just look at Pete Myers and Ivica Dukan...and then look at BJ Armstrong(who bashed Krause for trading Brand)

[BrooklynBulls]

How does one immediately make an offer they regret and would not offer? I suppose Paxson could have offered 54, and JR could have told Paxson that wouldn't do. But then why pretend that the offer existed in the first place? Because Gordon had already refused it, no need to cause waves.

Just thinking out loud here, sorry.

It passes the snuff test, because an irrational and arbitrary deadline never did seem to make much sense to me. I'm much more amicable to this theory.

Oh, and it completely sucks, but I knew it sucked about a year ago, too. What's there to do except disapprove? Doesn't bring the Ben back.

[DASMACKDOWN]

I just think in general Bulls mgmt have just over valued Defense.

Always have, always will.

That's why we wont ever get anywhere.

Bulls always prided themselves in defense and felt that it was the only thing that won them games.

But they are wrong...it was the fact that we had the greatest 2 way/2man combo of Jordan and Pippen the league had ever seen that was the reason why the defense was so good.

Bulls frown on a player who can score elite but defend bad.

Bulls rave on a player who defends well but cant score in an empty gym.

[coldfish]

I have said for a long time that he doesn't fit what we are trying to do.

This isn't about favorites, or who was the best, it is about the plan for the future, and how we are going to get there.

Now, many of us wonder what that plan is, but it is a business, and while Gordon is a good basketball player I am very confident that they had major concerns on defense, especially once BG got older.

The orginal poster pointed out a few of the times he was pulled from the starting line up. This is done for a reason. If you break down the tape, you will see that while he isn't a horrible defender, having a player of that size, who isn't half as much agressive on D as he is on O, who is no where near the average for size causes a problem.

It did even before we had rose here. It is a double edged sword. He is far and away our best scorer. We needed him out there to make baskets. However, he is a nightmare for a defensive plan, because he is the weak link. However he creates a mismatch on the other side as well.

Most of us know we have generally always been more about D, than O. Which was a major factor behind trading Aldridge....Even though we KNEW we needed a post player who could score.

On BG, I have to say that I agree with the Bulls. I believe it was the right choice to let him walk. Looks crazy now, but in the long run I hope we can bring in the right mix of players, get a starting line up and bench crew that we don't have to constantly shuffle. It would be nice.

Gordon is actually fine for a SG size wise because he was stronger than almost all the SG's out there. Teams would try to post him up and back him down and fail. Then throw up a fadeaway 15 footer and miss as some fans rail "LOOK THEY ARE POSTING UP GORDON!!!" while ignoring the fact that they weren't doing it successfully. A lot of people said this regarding the defense and it was ignored. Now that the Bulls defense is no better without Gordon, this has been validated beyond rational disagreement. Point blank, Gordon didn't hurt the defense. The Bulls were #1 in defense with Gordon at times and bad with him too. Now they are bad without him.

Here is the most important thing that the anti-Gordon people just don't get. Gordon at $9M per year is a value contract. You weren't married to him at 6/54. If it turns out that you can get Wade in 2010 or something, you could immediately trade Gordon. It wouldn't be just for expiring contracts either. You could actually get players that contribute for Gordon on that contract. This fact seems to be completely lost on people.

If the Bulls continue losing the way they are, they are going to blow 2010. No elite player is going to come to a team this bad. By handling the Gordon situation the way they did, the Bulls may not have just lost Gordon for nothing, they may blow a chance at a max contract guy too.

So yeah, Gordon may not have fit in the long term, but by creating such an unbalanced roster, the management destroyed the long term anyways.

[JOHN]

I have said for a long time that he doesn't fit what we are trying to do.

This isn't about favorites, or who was the best, it is about the plan for the future, and how we are going to get there.

Now, many of us wonder what that plan is, but it is a business, and while Gordon is a good basketball player I am very confident that they had major concerns on defense, especially once BG got older.

The orginal poster pointed out a few of the times he was pulled from the starting line up. This is done for a reason. If you break down the tape, you will see that while he isn't a horrible defender, having a player of that size, who isn't half as much agressive on D as he is on O, who is no where near the average for size causes a problem.

It did even before we had rose here. It is a double edged sword. He is far and away our best scorer. We needed him out there to make baskets. However, he is a nightmare for a defensive plan, because he is the weak link. However he creates a mismatch on the other side as well.

Most of us know we have generally always been more about D, than O. Which was a major factor behind trading Aldridge....Even though we KNEW we needed a post player who could score.

On BG, I have to say that I agree with the Bulls. I believe it was the right choice to let him walk. Looks crazy now, but in the long run I hope we can bring in the right mix of players, get a starting line up and bench crew that we don't have to constantly shuffle. It would be nice.

Gordon is actually fine for a SG size wise because he was stronger than almost all the SG's out there. Teams would try to post him up and back him down and fail. Then throw up a fadeaway 15 footer and miss as some fans rail "LOOK THEY ARE POSTING UP GORDON!!!" while ignoring the fact that they weren't doing it successfully. A lot of people said this regarding the defense and it was ignored. Now that the Bulls defense is no better without Gordon, this has been validated beyond rational disagreement. Point blank, Gordon didn't hurt the defense. The Bulls were #1 in defense with Gordon at times and bad with him too. Now they are bad without him.

Here is the most important thing that the anti-Gordon people just don't get. Gordon at $9M per year is a value contract. You weren't married to him at 6/54. If it turns out that you can get Wade in 2010 or something, you could immediately trade Gordon. It wouldn't be just for expiring contracts either. You could actually get players that contribute for Gordon on that contract. This fact seems to be completely lost on people.

If the Bulls continue losing the way they are, they are going to blow 2010. No elite player is going to come to a team this bad. By handling the Gordon situation the way they did, the Bulls may not have just lost Gordon for nothing, they may blow a chance at a max contract guy too.

So yeah, Gordon may not have fit in the long term, but by creating such an unbalanced roster, the management destroyed the long term anyways.

This probably is the post of the season.It's between the lines what most fans cannot see and the ramifications of such a dumb move.

[dougthonus]

I guess we have to go there.

Let's forget Hinrich, Nocioni, Wallace and Deng and their contracts. Right now, Gordon is better than Derrick Rose overall and on offense, he obviously really helped him.

The defense was fine with Gordon at SG. Many people kept pointing this out over and over and over. There are 3 physical facets to defense, speed, height and strength. On two of those characteristics, Gordon was exemplary. He didn't get backed down and he didn't get beaten with speed. The problem with the Bulls defense is at PG, because Rose sucks and in the paint. That's why the Bulls defense is worse this year than last, despite changing the 2/3 to Salmons/Deng. The 2/3 defense wasn't the problem.

The Bulls could have given Gordon $9M to Gordon and forgot about the SG position for 6 years and dealt with more pressing problems.

The Bulls **** up. I really don't see how this can be debated. Right now, Hinrich isn't in Gordon's league as far as contribution and they are paying him the same amount and likely will for several more years.

This was one of the worst personnel evaluations I have ever seen in professional sports. I can't believe people still hang with the management line.

Gordon is actually fine for a SG size wise because he was stronger than almost all the SG's out there. Teams would try to post him up and back him down and fail. Then throw up a fadeaway 15 footer and miss as some fans rail "LOOK THEY ARE POSTING UP GORDON!!!" while ignoring the fact that they weren't doing it successfully. A lot of people said this regarding the defense and it was ignored. Now that the Bulls defense is no better without Gordon, this has been validated beyond rational disagreement. Point blank, Gordon didn't hurt the defense. The Bulls were #1 in defense with Gordon at times and bad with him too. Now they are bad without him.

Here is the most important thing that the anti-Gordon people just don't get. Gordon at $9M per year is a value contract. You weren't married to him at 6/54. If it turns out that you can get Wade in 2010 or something, you could immediately trade Gordon. It wouldn't be just for expiring contracts either. You could actually get players that contribute for Gordon on that contract. This fact seems to be completely lost on people.

If the Bulls continue losing the way they are, they are going to blow 2010. No elite player is going to come to a team this bad. By handling the Gordon situation the way they did, the Bulls may not have just lost Gordon for nothing, they may blow a chance at a max contract guy too.

So yeah, Gordon may not have fit in the long term, but by creating such an unbalanced roster, the management destroyed the long term anyways.

Are you trying to hurt me?

Can't you just let me enjoy my Friday?

*Goes back to running around screaming LALALALALALA with my hands over my head before realizing that he's reading this and not hearing it*

[AirP.]

I guess we have to go there.

Let's forget Hinrich, Nocioni, Wallace and Deng and their contracts. Right now, Gordon is better than Derrick Rose overall and on offense, he obviously really helped him.

The defense was fine with Gordon at SG. Many people kept pointing this out over and over and over. There are 3 physical facets to defense, speed, height and strength. On two of those characteristics, Gordon was exemplary. He didn't get backed down and he didn't get beaten with speed. The problem with the Bulls defense is at PG, because Rose sucks and in the paint. That's why the Bulls defense is worse this year than last, despite changing the 2/3 to Salmons/Deng. The 2/3 defense wasn't the problem.

The Bulls could have given Gordon $9M to Gordon and forgot about the SG position for 6 years and dealt with more pressing problems.

The Bulls **** up. I really don't see how this can be debated. Right now, Hinrich isn't in Gordon's league as far as contribution and they are paying him the same amount and likely will for several more years.

This was one of the worst personnel evaluations I have ever seen in professional sports. I can't believe people still hang with the management line.

JR had in his mind that Gordon wasn't good enough on defense. It's so simple to see in recent years... other then Rose we've been drafting heavily towards defensive players(Luckly Rose was a locally grown product to get the butts in the seats), we've been overpaying defensive players who are at best average offensively.

Just look at it, it's not hard to see...
Tyrus(shot blocker, no real offense), Thabo(defensive player no real offense), Noah(defensive player no real offense), Ben Wallace(no offense at all but we gave him 15 mil a year), Hinrich(defensive player, no real offense), Deng(defensive player, no real offense). Now toss in the comment of JR telling D'Antoini that he'd have a problem if the team didn't play good defense and it's as clear as day what's going on.

The only hope we can currently have is that JR is seeing that you have to have a balance of offense and defense to win. All of these defensive players we've drafted and signed are getting DESTROYED because without offense, there's a huge let down on the defensive end. Why play your ass off to get stops if you don't think you can get a score on the other end of the court?

Avery Johnson was a defensive minded coach, but recently when he was doing some commentating he surprised even his coworkers saying that you have to have offense to go with defense, something he really wasn't a big fan of while in Dallas. People change, lets hope JR changes.

I don't think Gordon was the answer at starting SG for Chicago to be a great team, but I still maintain he was the answer coming off the bench for Chicago to be a great team.

BTW.. Gordon had Great strength and quickness for a guard, he just didn't have the desire to play better defense then he did, because on the defensive end it's pretty much desire. The height would hurt by people shooting over him, but too many times he didn't fight through picks or work as much as he could on the defensive end. Gordon could have been a much better defender then he was. If you want to say he's average, so be it, but he could have been more.

[coldfish]

Are you trying to hurt me?

Can't you just let me enjoy my Friday?

*Goes back to running around screaming LALALALALALA with my hands over my head before realizing that he's reading this and not hearing it*

I want to just forget about the Gordon thing. I just don't get management's position on him and it really scares me going forward. Like I said, this is one of the dumber personnel moves I have seen. Teams make dumb personnel moves and its not the end of the world though. The problem comes if the Bulls don't learn from their mistakes and this was certainly a mistake.

It seems that the team has significant problem determining a player's value league wide. For a team that pays the lux tax, that won't hurt. For a team trying to create a flexible roster while staying under the tax limit, that's a killer. This is the point I'm going to reiterate. The Bulls wouldn't have been married to Gordon at 6/54. He would have been getting paid something like $8M this year, which would have been easily moveable this offseason for a 20 point scorer.

[dougthonus]

Tyrus(shot blocker, no real offense), Thabo(defensive player no real offense), Noah(defensive player no real offense), Ben Wallace(no offense at all but we gave him 15 mil a year), Hinrich(defensive player, no real offense), Deng(defensive player, no real offense). Now toss in the comment of JR telling D'Antoini that he'd have a problem if the team didn't play good defense and it's as clear as day what's going on.

I don't think that's an accurate depiction of either Hinrich or Deng. They may not be great offensive players, but they clearly aren't the "no offense" type like the other players you mentioned.

[coldfish]

JR had in his mind that Gordon wasn't good enough on defense. It's so simple to see in recent years... other then Rose we've been drafting heavily towards defensive players(Luckly Rose was a locally grown product to get the butts in the seats), we've been overpaying defensive players who are at best average offensively.

Just look at it, it's not hard to see...
Tyrus(shot blocker, no real offense), Thabo(defensive player no real offense), Noah(defensive player no real offense), Ben Wallace(no offense at all but we gave him 15 mil a year), Hinrich(defensive player, no real offense), Deng(defensive player, no real offense). Now toss in the comment of JR telling D'Antoini that he'd have a problem if the team didn't play good defense and it's as clear as day what's going on.

The only hope we can currently have is that JR is seeing that you have to have a balance of offense and defense to win. All of these defensive players we've drafted and signed are getting DESTROYED because without offense, there's a huge let down on the defensive end. Why play your ass off to get stops if you don't think you can get a score on the other end of the court?

Avery Johnson was a defensive minded coach, but recently when he was doing some commentating he surprised even his coworkers saying that you have to have offense to go with defense, something he really wasn't a big fan of while in Dallas. People change, lets hope JR changes.

I don't think Gordon was the answer at starting SG for Chicago to be a great team, but I still maintain he was the answer coming off the bench for Chicago to be a great team.

BTW.. Gordon had Great strength and quickness for a guard, he just didn't have the desire to play better defense then he did, because on the defensive end it's pretty much desire. The height would hurt by people shooting over him, but too many times he didn't fight through picks or work as much as he could on the defensive end. Gordon could have been a much better defender then he was. If you want to say he's average, so be it, but he could have been more.

I agree with all of that. i'm not trying to say that Gordon was a good defender, but when you look around the league, there are a lot worse ones. Pargo and Rose are. Dumars was a very good defender and physically, he didn't have Gordon's tools as far as quickness and strength. Gordon definitely could have been better.

I will say that when you look at Tyrus, Noah, Taj, etc. the Bulls seem to have a problem with regards to defense. Someone needs to body up. All these skinny help defenders are killing the team. Don't get me wrong, having a good help defender is critical, but having a big body is too. I don't mean Aaron Gray either. You need a big guy who can move his feet, like Antonio Davis.

I also agree with your comment about balance. I really think the team is folding because they know when they get down, they can't score enough to catch up. I think that was one of the benefits of Gordon, particularly off the bench. If you were down 15 in the second quarter, everyone knew that there was a chance Gordon could come in and drop 15 and make it a game again.

[HomoSapien]

What about Brad Miller and Drew Gooden?

[coldfish]

What about Brad Miller and Drew Gooden?

I don't know if that was in reference to me, but I specifically said you need strong guys who can move their feet. Miller can't and Gooden didn't.