You've got $24M to spend and there's no Big 3. Who ya got ?

[JohnnyTapwater]

DanTown is on fire.

This board IS super crazy about salary...A bunch of cheap skates.

Perhaps the FO has made them this way. That's understandable, But the fact remains, I'm using the money I have on the talent. Period.

[MAQ]

Exactly! What Lee does is exactly what Amare does, except without the injuries and with better boarding!

The hell is wrong with THAT?

Seems to me Lee gets most of his points by using the "worst shot in basketball". At least in comparison to Amare. I definitely think Amare's 20 points are more intimidating and impactful than Lee's.

[BrooklynBulls]

Alright, I've had enough of going around in circles.

Sometimes, it's not the fault of the best guy on the team when he can't win. Sometimes it's everyone else's.

[MAQ]

Exactly! What Lee does is exactly what Amare does, except without the injuries and with better boarding!

The hell is wrong with THAT?

Except Amare isn't a god awful defender. I mean Amare might not shut people down, but he isn't as bad as Lee.

And David Lee doesn't get to the line (Amare does), Lee doesn't score in isolation at all, Lee can't put the ball on the floor (Amare can) and Lee doesn't take tough shots. End of game, you need guys who can create and David Lee cannot create. At least a Rose/Amare pick and roll, teams won't instantly trap Derrick and let him give it to Amare. Amare is top 3 in the league at finishing and making the right decision when they trap the ball handler. Only really LA runs it better with Gasol.

I should have just quoted your post...

[DanTown8587]

Alright, I've had enough of going around in circles.

Sometimes, it's not the fault of the best guy on the team when he can't win. Sometimes it's everyone else's.

I agree that the Knicks troubles aren't on Lee.

my question is what does Lee do in the pick and roll to help Derrick? He doesn't put the ball on the deck. He doesn't pass that great. He is a good shooter, but teams still will trap Derrick.

[Susan]

The argument is not what they're offering you TODAY, it's what they're going to offer you over the course of their contract.

I didn't post all of those stats saying oh look at Joe Johnson's PER, I looked at how much those guys similar to him absolutely broke down after playing in similar situations. He's played a SHITTON of minutes. That's good for the Suns and Hawks but that's not going to be good for whatever team he gets on next. He's on the hill down. You can say, oh my eyes say something different but it's happened to nearly everybody human who played that many minutes for that long. They break down. It's going to happen to him and it's going to happen to the next guy.

[BrooklynBulls]

I agree that the Knicks troubles aren't on Lee.

my question is what does Lee do in the pick and roll to help Derrick? He doesn't put the ball on the deck. He doesn't pass that great. He is a good shooter, but teams still will trap Derrick.

He passes about 40 times better than Amare. Amare is a crap-ass passer. David Lee is a REALLY good passer. David Lee WILL drive WITH the ball. I don't even know how you can watch him and say he can't. He did it against US.

He's not a big that will close out a game. The bigs that can close out a game are named Yao, Dirk, Duncan, Bosh, and sorta-kinda Pau Gasol.

If you think Amare is the closer in Phoenix, you're wrong. That's Nash.

In the clutch, Amare and Lee have VERY similar stats. Except that Lee's are better.

I do think Amare's a better player. I do. But I don't think Lee's the afterbirth of Black Jesus, either.

[RyGuy24]

Alright, I've had enough of going around in circles.

Sometimes, it's not the fault of the best guy on the team when he can't win. Sometimes it's everyone else's.

I agree that the Knicks troubles aren't on Lee.

my question is what does Lee do in the pick and roll to help Derrick? He doesn't put the ball on the deck. He doesn't pass that great. He is a good shooter, but teams still will trap Derrick.

P&R doesn't require some awesome dribbling skills though (although Lee doesn't have bad handles by any means). Usually just 2 or so dribbles before you go up. And Lee is a very good passer btw, not sure where you got the impression he wasn't. One of the best passing big men in the game IMO.

[Susan]

I think so many people on this board don't want to overpay for talent and then it's a situation where you better be prepared to not take that next step unless Rose becomes DWade/LeBron/Kobe good.

And I'll tell you right now, David Lee and Anthony Morrow might make you better on paper, but that team isn't winning squat in the playoffs. I really think that this board has become IN LOVE with efficiency stats and salary numbers and instead of actually watching basketball, they feel the stats tell the whole story.

Case in point: people talking about Joe Johnson. His PER might be low, he might not be a dynamite numbers guy, but you can't honestly watch the Hawks play and see what JJ does and tell me the Bulls wouldn't be closer to 38 wins now than 31 if JJ was here. The numbers say he wouldn't, but actually watching the games do.

Reggie Miller maintained his PER, Clyde Drexler played at a high level until he retired. So did Michael Jordan and Jerry West. But once again, who did and who didn't play at a high level after age 30 shouldn't predicate what to do with Joe Johnson. That's not fair to Joe. I mean Iverson, Marbury, Antoine, etc all had legit reasons why they became horrible players.

Joe Johnson has one playoff series victory with the Hawks. It took him 7 games to beat D-Wade and 11 garbage men.

Of course the Bulls would be a better team with JJ today. No ****. But the dude is going to fall apart real quick. It's not going to be pretty either. Reggie Miller is completely different than JJ. His whole game predicated on drilling threes. He won more than JJ did. He was better at his peak than JJ and wasn't abused like a ten dollar donkey like JJ was. Playing 42 minutes a game is a bad thing. Not good. It takes years off of players careers.

Did oyu even read anything I wrote? The dudes who have played over 25000 minutes in their first 9 seasons broke down in the following seasons. He's in that group. He's about to get paid. He's not worth it here when our superstar is 21 years old. What good will Joe Johnson looking like Michael Finley was two years ago be to Derrick Rose in three years?

[Susan]

Amare's trending down and has lots of miles on him, Lee's trending up and has a whole lot less miles on his body. Lee's not going to be a top player on a championship team, but neither is Amare based on how he's declining.

[DanTown8587]

The argument is not what they're offering you TODAY, it's what they're going to offer you over the course of their contract.

I didn't post all of those stats saying oh look at Joe Johnson's PER, I looked at how much those guys similar to him absolutely broke down after playing in similar situations. He's played a **** of minutes. That's good for the Suns and Hawks but that's not going to be good for whatever team he gets on next. He's on the hill down. You can say, oh my eyes say something different but it's happened to nearly everybody human who played that many minutes for that long. They break down. It's going to happen to him and it's going to happen to the next guy.

Reggie Miller
Clyde Drexler
Michael Jordan
Kobe Bryant

Not comparing those guys to JJ, but saying all those guys played well into their 30s and didn't have a drop off.

My question is what aspect of his game does JJ drop off? He is athletic, but he isn't a guy who relies on being more athletic. He plays the game now like he already is in his 30s. I think that the level won't fall off that much.

[Fast Dont Fib]

I think Lee's defensive woes are getting in the way of people's judgment of his offensive game. To say Lee can't create his own shot, and that he is not a guy you can give the ball to when it matters is a little bit off. It seems really easy to say he's a stat padder and gets all his points off of missing his own shots and putbacks. Numerous times he took the ball off the dribble and worked us. His 15-18 footer is improving. And when it comes to crunch time, i know this is just one game. But he JUST had a game winner the other night creating his own shot. Which by the way would equal the number of game winners our beloved Derrick has hit.

I'm not gonna argue whether he's a better fit than amare, but the offensive comments about him seem a little off base.

[DanTown8587]

I think so many people on this board don't want to overpay for talent and then it's a situation where you better be prepared to not take that next step unless Rose becomes DWade/LeBron/Kobe good.

And I'll tell you right now, David Lee and Anthony Morrow might make you better on paper, but that team isn't winning squat in the playoffs. I really think that this board has become IN LOVE with efficiency stats and salary numbers and instead of actually watching basketball, they feel the stats tell the whole story.

Case in point: people talking about Joe Johnson. His PER might be low, he might not be a dynamite numbers guy, but you can't honestly watch the Hawks play and see what JJ does and tell me the Bulls wouldn't be closer to 38 wins now than 31 if JJ was here. The numbers say he wouldn't, but actually watching the games do.

Reggie Miller maintained his PER, Clyde Drexler played at a high level until he retired. So did Michael Jordan and Jerry West. But once again, who did and who didn't play at a high level after age 30 shouldn't predicate what to do with Joe Johnson. That's not fair to Joe. I mean Iverson, Marbury, Antoine, etc all had legit reasons why they became horrible players.

Joe Johnson has one playoff series victory with the Hawks. It took him 7 games to beat D-Wade and 11 garbage men.

Of course the Bulls would be a better team with JJ today. No ****. But the dude is going to fall apart real quick. It's not going to be pretty either. Reggie Miller is completely different than JJ. His whole game predicated on drilling threes. He won more than JJ did. He was better at his peak than JJ and wasn't abused like a ten dollar donkey like JJ was. Playing 42 minutes a game is a bad thing. Not good. It takes years off of players careers.

Did oyu even read anything I wrote? The dudes who have played over 25000 minutes in their first 9 seasons broke down in the following seasons. He's in that group. He's about to get paid. He's not worth it here when our superstar is 21 years old. What good will Joe Johnson looking like Michael Finley was two years ago be to Derrick Rose in three years?

I read what you wrote, did you read what I wrote? All of those players had legit concerns for reasons they became awful. Most of the guys you listed were not that good and then became worse. I get it, some players did break down and others didn't. My point is to not give Joe Johnson a contract based solely on the fact that "players that are 30 usually break down" is an argument that Joe Johnson has no control over.

Amare's trending down and has lots of miles on him, Lee's trending up and has a whole lot less miles on his body. Lee's not going to be a top player on a championship team, but neither is Amare based on how he's declining.

I don't get how Amare is trending down. He is 27 and played about 18,000 minutes at the end of the year. Lee played about 4000 less minutes (counting college) and is a year younger. I am not really buying an argument that Lee and Amare are at different levels in terms of where their bodies are going.


And in general response, two things:

One, JJ was on the best team in Phoenix (ditto Amare) and David Lee has yet to play on a team that has been in the playoffs. I don't get why we are having playoffs debates. All I said was David Lee and Anthony Morrow don't change the outcome of the games. Yeah they play on bad teams, I just don't see it in their games that they can win games.

[sonny]

You don't give JJ a ridiculously huge contract because he's not worth it.

Giving him 15M a year is just locking this team into mediocrity for several years.

[Ajosu]

I'm for Boozer, I don't believe Paxson will be, though.

Isn't it ridiculous that, while our position of biggest need is PF, we very well might not even consider going after 2 of the top 3 PF's available this summer in Boozer/Amare!

[DanTown8587]

You don't give JJ a ridiculously huge contract because he's not worth it.

Giving him 15M a year is just locking this team into mediocrity for several years.

Here is the problem, either you view JJ as a guy who can help you or you don't. The Bulls have one shot at getting better, if you don't feel JJ is that then that's cool. I feel JJ, even at 15 million a year-as a last resort, would make the team better.

Also, someone has to tell me why David Lee is going to come on some cheap deal. He won't. There are more teams with holes at PF and cap space than there are guys you want to pay.

[Red Larrivee]

Might wanna look at the Orlando Magic, and Rashard Lewis' contract for Susan's point. He's declined season by season since he got there (age. 28) and has 3 years left on the deal. He takes up 22% of their current cap, and makes more than their franchise player.

They're good right now, but with an aging and declining Vince, declining Shard, ceiling-reached Jameer, they're not going far unless Howard's offense becomes significantly better. They're locked into this group with no cap space for the next 4 seasons and Dwight is only 24.

I still wouldn't lock myself into Morrow/Lee as a counter-reaction, but I won't lie that Johnson has me scared more than any other top-tier 2010 FA. His skill level isn't worth the eventual decline.

[sonny]

You don't give JJ a ridiculously huge contract because he's not worth it.

Giving him 15M a year is just locking this team into mediocrity for several years.

Here is the problem, either you view JJ as a guy who can help you or you don't. The Bulls have one shot at getting better, if you don't feel JJ is that then that's cool. I feel JJ, even at 15 million a year-as a last resort, would make the team better.

Of course JJ would make us better, but not "contract starting at 15M" better, more like "getting paid 19M while playing like Mike Finley"

It seems like you just want to spend money regardless of if the guy is worth it, just because we have money to blow.

We've spent the last 4 years dealing with **** because we threw big cash at an aging player that declined and was never worth his contract

Outisde of the big 3, there are only 2 guys I feel could make us a very good team, Boozer and Amare, and even those two have problems that would make me pause for offering them a big deal.

[DanTown8587]

Might wanna look at the Orlando Magic, and Rashard Lewis' contract for Susan's point. He's declined season by season since he got there (age. 28) and has 3 years left on the deal. He takes up 22% of their current cap, and makes more than their franchise player.

They're good right now, but with an aging and declining Vince, declining Shard, ceiling-reached Jameer, they're not going far unless Howard's offense becomes significantly better. They're locked into this group with no cap space for the next 4 seasons and Dwight is only 24.

I still wouldn't lock myself into Morrow/Lee as a counter-reaction, but I won't lie that Johnson has me scared more than any other top-tier 2010 FA. His skill level isn't worth the eventual decline.

They only are the second best team in the East and played in the finals. That's a horrible argument then. if JJ is a vital reason the Bulls are a 60 win team and win the conference even once, it would be tough for me to argue that it wouldn't be worth it.

[DanTown8587]

You don't give JJ a ridiculously huge contract because he's not worth it.

Giving him 15M a year is just locking this team into mediocrity for several years.

Here is the problem, either you view JJ as a guy who can help you or you don't. The Bulls have one shot at getting better, if you don't feel JJ is that then that's cool. I feel JJ, even at 15 million a year-as a last resort, would make the team better.

Of course JJ would make us better, but not "contract starting at 15M" better, more like "getting paid 19M while playing like Mike Finley"

It seems like you just want to spend money regardless of if the guy is worth it, just because we have money to blow.

Outisde of the big 3, there are only 2 guys I feel could make us a very good team, Boozer and Amare, and even those two have problems that would make me pause for offering them a big deal.

So what do you do then? Pay JJ or get no one? People want to get Lee for cheap and I keep saying why will David Lee be had for cheap? Are we assuming the Nets, with absolutely no hope, will not throw money at him. Or the Knicks if there is no one left? Or Phoenix if Amare leaves?

I also believe JJ will be better than Michael Finley or Tracy McGrady were at the end of their deals.