You've got $24M to spend and there's no Big 3. Who ya got ?

[Red Larrivee]

They only are the second best team in the East and played in the finals. That's a horrible argument then. if JJ is a vital reason the Bulls are a 60 win team and win the conference even once, it would be tough for me to argue that it wouldn't be worth it.

For how long though? They're clearly not as good as last year, and they'll most likely get worse with 2 of their main pieces on the drop.

[DanTown8587]

They only are the second best team in the East and played in the finals. That's a horrible argument then. if JJ is a vital reason the Bulls are a 60 win team and win the conference even once, it would be tough for me to argue that it wouldn't be worth it.

For how long though? They're clearly not as good as last year, and they'll most likely get worse with 2 of their main pieces on the drop.

I don't know, but what I do know is they played in a finals and are contenders to play in another this year. If they fall, they still are a top 4 team in the conference. The Bulls aren't there.

[theanimal23]

Out of the remaining group, I would go for the following in this order:
1. Amare
2. Boozer
3. Joe Johnson

I would only offer Amare the max -- if thats what it took to get him. Boozer less than the Max, but more than I would for Joe Johnson.

[back_like_crack]

I'm dealing JJ and/or our 1st round pick in sign and trades for my free agent targets - or - future picks so that I've actually got say $24M to spend

So anyway ....

David Lee - $15M - 6 year $75M deal - Starting at $10M per with 10% increases - but with a $5M signing bonus in Year 1 ( this will screw the Knicks big time with their plan to pay 2 guys ( one of which is Lee no doubt a sa fall back to the Big 3 ) to fit around T Mac for lesser money )

Mike Miller - $3M - 5 year $18M deal ( TO 4th and 5th year )
Kyle Korver - $2.25M - 5 year $14M deal ( TO 4th and 5th year )
Brad Miller $1.5M - 2 year deal ( TO 2nd year )
Acie Law - $750K - 1 year deal
Cap Hold #1 ...ultimately Brian Skinner for a vet's minimum
Cap Hold #2 ...ultimately Anthony Johnson for a vet's minimum
Cap Hold #3....ultimately a D League / un drafted wing defender for the minimum



Noah
Lee
Deng
Hinrich
Rose

bench

B.Miller
Gibson
Korver
M.Miller
Law

Skinner
Johnson
Training Camp surprise



This only puts us in the market for a Pryzibilla or Collison type addition next year if we can snare them for MLE money ( in which case Brad Miller would be let go on the 2nd year of his deal via the TO )


But for better or worse this is our team at least for the next 3 to 5 years with the only prospect of improving via tradeable pieces to shake the mix / fits up better

Over a 5 year window I think this team can contend in the East but don't believe we can go all the way and win a title without a missing piece type consolidation trade that could come later that puts us in legit contention

But if its all we got for now I take it .

i didnt even get past the first sentence to realize how ignorant this was. y would we trade jj. they did all they trouble thinking about getting him and if the pacers or nets had agreed to switch tthere pick for both of ours then the bulls would still have tyrus and taj would be elsewhere. u dont trade jj yet for a free agent . u let him grow and progress. he doesnt hurt the team by staying. and chi is in line to get one of the free agents so just be happy with that. all this greed pisses me off. we have a ochance to get a allstar and all u can talk about is freeing up more space to get two, like the knicks nets and some others arent doing the same. ppl need to realize that deng jj along with noah and rose are the players that can change the team around plus the free agent. deng is that 3rd player we looking for. rose/whoever/ deng/ noah jj, we all know players need time to grow. im sure we can get someone like marrow for alot less then paying another top free agent and marrow prob is just as good as the player we paying to get.

[back_like_crack]

I'd pay Anhtony Morrow 7mil before I'd pay Ronnie Brewer.. This guy is a diamond in the rough. He's worked on his ballhandling scores at a very efficient rate. 45%FG and 46%3point percentage. Some how manages to average 13ppg with Curry,Monta,Watson and Maggette on his team. I don't see GSW bringing him back, after extending Watson and Monta's big contract..

This guy has one of the most purest strokes in the league.. Cheaper version of Ben Gordon, he can easily average 18ppg if given the opprotunity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijFqo0lH2Zk

not my style to say u correct but, u not the only 1 wanting him on chi. and he got the size for the sg so the fans here dont bitch all day. and can shoot

[League Circles]

i didnt even get past the first sentence to realize how ignorant this was. y would we trade jj. they did all they trouble thinking about getting him and if the pacers or nets had agreed to switch tthere pick for both of ours then the bulls would still have tyrus and taj would be elsewhere. u dont trade jj yet for a free agent . u let him grow and progress. he doesnt hurt the team by staying. and chi is in line to get one of the free agents so just be happy with that. all this greed pisses me off. we have a ochance to get a allstar and all u can talk about is freeing up more space to get two, like the knicks nets and some others arent doing the same. ppl need to realize that deng jj along with noah and rose are the players that can change the team around plus the free agent. deng is that 3rd player we looking for. rose/whoever/ deng/ noah jj, we all know players need time to grow. im sure we can get someone like marrow for alot less then paying another top free agent and marrow prob is just as good as the player we paying to get.

Wow. You might want to express yourself in complete sentences with decent spelling before you inaccurately throw around the world "ignorant" referring to someone else.

What is he being ignorant about? Do you understand what a S&T is? Do you realize that all of the players we want as FAs can make tens of millions more by staying with their own clubs, UNLESS we do a S&T, with James Johnson being the #1 most likely player to be moved?

Take Bosh, for example, what do you think he'll prefer - an extra $30 million or having James Johnson as a third string forward? It very well may be that we have to trade JJ to get the guy we want. Now what was that about ignorance?

[Legendary 33]

So the general consensus is that we'd pursue Morrow?

I like the idea.

[Susan]

It's impossible for me to convince you that playing that many minutes is bad long term for a career. JJ's not on Kobe's level, not anywhere near Drexler's and nothing like Reggie. His highest season win score is 7.6, his best PER is 19.8, he's got major red flags when it comes to minutes played and he's already turned down 4/60. He's bad news. He's not a good fit next to Derrick Rose on the court in his prime because he needs to be the number 1 option and he's 9 years older than Derrick to boot. Reggie Miller had 14 seasons with higher win scores than Joe Johnson's best. Drexler had 8, and his PER was in the 20s for the majority of his peak years. They both played on finals teams and played over 144 playoff games EACH. JJ's played in 33. I'm not even going to mention how much better MJ and Kobe are in this discussion.

There are trends and the only players who break those trends are the truely gifted players in this world. The D-Wades, the Lebrons, the MJs, the Kobes.

Really, what in your mind separates Joe Johnson from Michael Finley? What makes you ignore the 17 guys I listed who got really bad, really quickly after playing 25000 minutes in 9 seasons? Can you explain why their bodies wore down? Why Isiah retired? Why Pippen wasn't ever the same after his back injury? Why 7 out of the 70 total seasons these guys all had after their 9th season, were their PERs higher than their career average? What happened to Shawn Marion? Where'd his legs go? Larry Bird? Why'd they only average 7800 minutes played per player? Why'd Glen Rice fall apart? Mitch Richmond? Hersey Hawkins was pretty decent until he got old, no?

JJ's going to make any team that has Kirk Hinrich starting at the 2 guard slot, better. But it's not going to be for long and he's never going to play for us at the level he's played at for the past 4 seasons. That kind of stuff doesn't happen. He's at his peak now, he's going to fall down this hill and fast.

[EastBayFJ]

I agree that the Knicks troubles aren't on Lee.

my question is what does Lee do in the pick and roll to help Derrick? He doesn't put the ball on the deck. He doesn't pass that great. He is a good shooter, but teams still will trap Derrick.

He passes about 40 times better than Amare. Amare is a crap-ass passer. David Lee is a REALLY good passer. David Lee WILL drive WITH the ball. I don't even know how you can watch him and say he can't. He did it against US.

He's not a big that will close out a game. The bigs that can close out a game are named Yao, Dirk, Duncan, Bosh, and sorta-kinda Pau Gasol.

If you think Amare is the closer in Phoenix, you're wrong. That's Nash.

In the clutch, Amare and Lee have VERY similar stats. Except that Lee's are better.

I do think Amare's a better player. I do. But I don't think Lee's the afterbirth of Black Jesus, either.

This

No one has commented on Lee's passing abilities from the high post or as an interior passer. He almost has point forward capacity. Pretty handy to have in a high post pick and roll player


The other thing that no one has commented upon is the issue of deference which Lee fits better than Amare and/or Boozer where the risk is they become confused that its still all about them

And Danny Boy ...you better believe that salary is of the utmost importance and the reasonability of it in the aftermath of the next CBA

Lee...being younger and better value with his signning bonus out of the way is not forever and ever amen....but y'know he just may be a bloody good trade chip a couple of seasons down the road if we have the oportunity of an upgrade/consolidation trade

Better options with this IMO then with Amare or Boozer for the motherload and bitchy / whiny out of harness cancers because they aren't getting their touches, their respect or their love

Fcku em

[EastBayFJ]

im sure we can get someone like marrow for alot less then paying another top free agent and marrow prob is just as good as the player we paying to get.

Hey if we get marrow that will give me a boner

boner4marrow

Your thoughts transplant ?

[coldfish]

You don't give JJ a ridiculously huge contract because he's not worth it.

Giving him 15M a year is just locking this team into mediocrity for several years.

Here is the problem, either you view JJ as a guy who can help you or you don't. The Bulls have one shot at getting better, if you don't feel JJ is that then that's cool. I feel JJ, even at 15 million a year-as a last resort, would make the team better.

Also, someone has to tell me why David Lee is going to come on some cheap deal. He won't. There are more teams with holes at PF and cap space than there are guys you want to pay.

I think that if you agree with DanTown's premise here in bold, the case for JJ becomes stronger. I don't think its a done deal that JJ is better than a guy like Lee straight up over the next 5 years, but its reasonable to think its close enough to go for JJ and then pay any price to get him.

That being said, I disagree with the premise. Virtually every year, some quality player becomes available cheap in trade. Garnett, Gasol, etc. When those players come available, the team with the best contracts and most (channelling Gar) flexibility will get them. The summer of 2010 will not be Chicago's last chance to land a quality player.

When Gasol came available the second time, the Bulls were caught flat footed. They were chock full of bad contracts and right up against the luxury tax barrier. They simply couldn't make a reasonable bid for him without paying the tax. I hope the Bulls don't make that mistake again.

There are many, many different directions the Bulls could take this summer. If a guy like Lee is demanding $16M per year, well screw him. Go another route. The same goes for JJ. I know fans here will go ballistic if the Bulls don't land someone, but that's better than living through another 5 years with an albatross contract killing flexibility. IMO, you are better off trading with a team over the tax barrier to give them relieve while acquiring assets.

Here is an example: The Vince Carter thing isn't working out so well in Orlando and they are set to pay a huge LT next season. He has 1 year $17M left on his deal. You could trade for him almost straight up. Or Hinrich for Carter + future 1st. The Bulls would be able to offer another max contract in 2011, pick up Carter and a pick.

[League Circles]

Coldfish - a couple of things to point out:

Kevin Garnett was not acquired cheaply. It took an excellent young post player. It was an upgrade for the Celtics sure, but we not to add, not just upgrade.

I think it's untrue that there are always great players available for expiring contracts. Gasol was the exception, and I don't think he's any better than Amare or Boozer personally.

I agree JJ isn't the way to go.

Vince Carter, for example - is he really much of an upgrade over Kirk Hinrich at the two, for this team, when it comes to wins and losses? He hasn't won anything in a very very long time, his numbers aren't that good. He's been injured a lot, and he's a little b!tch as well. There's a reason I lef thim off my list of guys with bad deals we might be able to get, and it's because I don't hink he's desireable. AK47 would help just as much if not more, is on the same 17 mil deal for one year, and could actually be had for free.

But bottom line is we have 4 dominant, elite players available IMO in LBJ, Wade, Bosh and Amare, and we should be able to get one.

[coldfish]

My comment about Carter was more about him as a 1 year stopgap than any real upgrade. AK47 is another good example. So is Troy Murphy.

Its more about a concept than a specific transaction.

[DanTown8587]

Here is all I will say about this Lee debate: for some unknown reason people view him to be around 10 million a year and I don't see how the market only bears that. If he has the worse agent in the world he should be able to get more than that. I would take Lee over JJ at 10 million a year, but I am not a fan of Lee v Amare if the money is similar.

I also want to know what the market rate is for a two guard that has played in four straight all-star games. I just think people here are getting caught up with "we won't have flexibility" and I laugh because with the extensions due Noah and Rose there is no longer term flexibility. JJ will be 34 in year 6 of his deal. I fail to see how JJ will all of the sudden start killing you. I also fail to see what player(s) better than JJ will all of the sudden become available.

And let me say this: 6/90 is still 30 million less than what the Magic signed Rashard for. If the Bulls did that deal, signed Asik and say Al Harrington for 3/12, I fail to see how that team wouldn't be a top team in the East.

Rose
Johnson
Deng
Gibson
Noah

Hinrich
Harrington
#1
Johnson
Asik

That's a nice rotation IMO

[DanTown8587]

My comment about Carter was more about him as a 1 year stopgap than any real upgrade. AK47 is another good example. So is Troy Murphy.

Its more about a concept than a specific transaction.

I get it. I just think Joe Johnson is better than those guys and his demise is sorely overrated. The guy will be the same age at the end of his contract than Ben Wallace was at the start of his. And if you want to protect yourself, give yourself a ETO after year 4 and a TO after year 5 so it basically is a 5 year deal for 73 million.

[coldfish]

I also want to know what the market rate is for a two guard that has played in four straight all-star games. I just think people here are getting caught up with "we won't have flexibility" and I laugh because with the extensions due Noah and Rose there is no longer term flexibility. JJ will be 34 in year 6 of his deal. I fail to see how JJ will all of the sudden start killing you. I also fail to see what player(s) better than JJ will all of the sudden become available.

Susan has done extensive work on this. JJ is most likely going to be an MLE or worse player by year 3 of his contract. He isn't going to be worth anywhere near his salary figure.

You are completely right about Noah and Rose getting extensions. With them and Deng, you really don't have much room under the tax barrier. You do though and that's enough to maintain some flexibility. Remember, the key number is the lux tax barrier, not the cap. Jerry basically vetoes any trade taking on salary once you get to that limit.

For most of JJ's deal, you will have a John Salmons level player making more than $16M per year. That's just a killer for a team that won't pay tax and already has Rose, Noah and Deng on the books.

And let me say this: 6/90 is still 30 million less than what the Magic signed Rashard for. If the Bulls did that deal, signed Asik and say Al Harrington for 3/12, I fail to see how that team wouldn't be a top team in the East.

Rose
Johnson
Deng
Gibson
Noah

Hinrich
Harrington
#1
Johnson
Asik

That's a nice rotation IMO

That frontcourt isn't very good. Its a better team than the Bulls have now, but when you get to the 2nd round, most frontcourts are going to abuse Taj / Noah / Asik. Its a dead team in the playoffs.

[sonny]

The other thing that no one has commented upon is the issue of deference which Lee fits better than Amare and/or Boozer where the risk is they become confused that its still all about them

Both Booz and Amare are much better players than Lee. I wouldn't pick Lee because he wouldn't mind deferring.

Booz doesn't seem to have a problem with Deron.

And check the NY board where they've been complaining about Lee apparently playing for his stats and contract, forcing shots, not passing

[dougthonus]

Can I ask why people think completely low balling what the market is willing to bear is a good idea? I don't get it? I think you first get the players who are best, then work on contract. As long as it isn't something insane, then you sign the best player(s). You want to make a move to win a title? Then you have to risk something. That risk is the contract you give. You can't get Amare for 12 million a year. That is insane and not likely.

With the extension due Noah next year, this is the year you have cap space. Next year, the Bulls will likely be around 42 million in committed salary (Deng, Kirk, Rose, Noah's cap hold/extension, JJ, Gibson, two #1, Asik, cap holds). And the good FA in 2011 look something like this:

David West
Carmelo Anthony (ETO)
Tony Parker
Zach Randolph
Paul Pierce
Yao Ming
Michael Redd
Richard Jefferson
Caron Butler
Tayshaun Prince
Nene (ETO)

Besides Carmelo, who is this guy worth waiting for? Zach Randolph possibly?

I think so many people on this board don't want to overpay for talent and then it's a situation where you better be prepared to not take that next step unless Rose becomes DWade/LeBron/Kobe good.

And I'll tell you right now, David Lee and Anthony Morrow might make you better on paper, but that team isn't winning squat in the playoffs. I really think that this board has become IN LOVE with efficiency stats and salary numbers and instead of actually watching basketball, they feel the stats tell the whole story.

Case in point: people talking about Joe Johnson. His PER might be low, he might not be a dynamite numbers guy, but you can't honestly watch the Hawks play and see what JJ does and tell me the Bulls wouldn't be closer to 38 wins now than 31 if JJ was here. The numbers say he wouldn't, but actually watching the games do.

Reggie Miller maintained his PER, Clyde Drexler played at a high level until he retired. So did Michael Jordan and Jerry West. But once again, who did and who didn't play at a high level after age 30 shouldn't predicate what to do with Joe Johnson. That's not fair to Joe. I mean Iverson, Marbury, Antoine, etc all had legit reasons why they became horrible players.

The fear is that Joe Johnson is not going to help you in two years, there is a world of evidence to support that fear. Joe Johnson's not a top 10 player in the league now, and he's highly likely to be declining rapidly over the next 5 seasons. If you bid on Joe Johnson then I expect the Bulls will be much improved in 2010/11, and they might improve upon that in 2011/12, but then they'll likely be declining every year after that unless they find some other player to cause the rise in talent again.

Joe Johnson is highly likely to be considerably worse than he is today after two more seasons. Joe Johnson might cost 18 million a year on average, I don't think his performance today is worth that much, but in two years it has extraordinarily little hope of being worth that much.

Your philosophy is the same one that had teams sign Shaq, Antawn Jamison, Vince Carter, Hedo Turkoglu, Ray Allen, Baron Davis, Elton Brand, Gilbert Arenas, etc.. They looked at what a guy did rather than what he's likely to do and completely screwed themselves over in the process. There are probably another million examples though those are the ones that immediately leaped to mind.

Not all of those signings necessarily ended terribly for everyone involved. Seattle traded Ray Allen for a good return [and the Celtics won a title with him], Shaq helped the Heat win a title and they were able to move him afterwards, the Wizards got something back for Jamison. However, and some of those teams got really screwed with those decisions.

[sonny]

I now feel that the Bulls will sign JJ to that huge contract.

We're ****

[Madison]

I agree that Joe Johnson is likely to decline, but I don't understand why everyone thinks Johnson will decline, but doesn't say he same things about Wade? Johnson is only 6 months older than Wade and, in my opinion, will age considerably better. First of all, Wade's game is predicated on athleticism, and that is what players lose first. Johnson's game is more predicated on outside shooting and creating space and than flying to the hoop and slashing.

I am not saying that Johnson is a better FA to go after than Wade. I think Wade gives us 2 elite years, but then declines rapidly. Johnson, on the other hand, probably gives us less in the first 2 years than Wade, about the same in the third, and maybe a little bit more in the fourth and fifth years.

I would expect Wade to miss 20+ games in years 3-5, but I think Johnson typically stays healthy and would only suffer injury in some type of fluke.