You've got $24M to spend and there's no Big 3. Who ya got ?

[dafunky1]

Lemme see here, Joe Johnson-Old,declining production
Amare- Cant play D, injury issues
Boozer-Motivation issues, injury issues,old
D Lee-No D, skewed system
B***-Soft,Leadership issues
Wade-Old, fear of breaking down declining production


From what im reading on the board,all of them is flawed.Makes me not want none of them,but I would have to take B*** for the obvious reasons.He has the fresher legs.Im a old fella,so im looking at who body is gonna break down quicker.FWIW,I wouldnt touch Wade JJ, nor D Lee. So for me it would be B***, Amare, Boozer.But I would rather they go after Andrew Bynum

[DanTown8587]

Ray Allen didn't decline at 31. He was used less in Boston, ala what JJ would do. But I am not comparing what to do with JJ based on what Ray Allen did. JJ is a guy who has never missed time with an injury. He isn't a guy that has shown any signs of slowing down in his game. Yet because other guys did means he will? It's a stupid argument.

I also want to know how the Bulls become a title contender without Bosh, Wade or James? I mean only really Amare is a possible good enough player in FA for that to happen. I just think if given the option of taking on JJ on a less than favorable deal or passing on him, you just gave up a shot to be the #2 or #3 in the East (depending on what Cleveland, etc do).

I just think that this "wait until we can get another star later" part is a little short. The Bulls don't have the assets talent wise to acquire a stud without trading someone of decent value.

[aaqubed]

What cap room? There won't be any after this summer. We'll need assets if we want to trade.

Yes, we will need assets. Joe Johnson on a max contract is not one.

Something that's been brought up a few times has been using our cap room to trade for a guy like Murphy who is expiring next year, and a protected pick -- which would give Indiana immediate savings and would give us a solid player and another asset.

I'm talking about doing types of deals than tie up all our cap space with Joe Johnson.

[DanTown8587]

What cap room? There won't be any after this summer. We'll need assets if we want to trade.

Yes, we will need assets. Joe Johnson on a max contract is not one.

Something that's been brought up a few times has been using our cap room to trade for a guy like Murphy who is expiring next year, and a protected pick -- which would give Indiana immediate savings and would give us a solid player and another asset.

I'm talking about doing types of deals than tie up all our cap space with Joe Johnson.

I'm the biggest fan of JJ there is and I am not saying sign him to 6/130 (which is max). I would give him 6/90 with a TO after year 5 and go from there. If you still think that is "cap crippling" then you really shouldn't want JJ on your team.

[DanTown8587]

Your philosophy is the same one that had teams sign Shaq, Antawn Jamison, Vince Carter, Hedo Turkoglu, Ray Allen, Baron Davis, Elton Brand, Gilbert Arenas, etc..

Shaq: Horrible deal, everyone knew it and was signed when he was 35
Jamison: Was a top 10 PF through the life of his first deal and now is still giving you 20-8 a night. No dropoff at all and 33.
Carter: Horrible injury history and history of not playing hard
Hedo: Overpaid and a system guy
Allen: Declined statistically at 34
Davis: More injury concerns than anyone and doesn't fit what the team does or needed
Brand: Missed significant time for two straight years
Arenas: Outbid themselves to sign a guy with THREE knee operations

I don't get how a guy who has never missed significant time can be compared to these guys. Jamison and Allen are the two guys on that list who didn't miss time and they were effective until the 33 age. Everyone else had injury concerns, something JJ never did, or in Hedo's case a system player.

[BG7]

Ray Allen didn't decline at 31. He was used less in Boston, ala what JJ would do. But I am not comparing what to do with JJ based on what Ray Allen did. JJ is a guy who has never missed time with an injury. He isn't a guy that has shown any signs of slowing down in his game. Yet because other guys did means he will? It's a stupid argument.

I also want to know how the Bulls become a title contender without Bosh, Wade or James? I mean only really Amare is a possible good enough player in FA for that to happen. I just think if given the option of taking on JJ on a less than favorable deal or passing on him, you just gave up a shot to be the #2 or #3 in the East (depending on what Cleveland, etc do).

I just think that this "wait until we can get another star later" part is a little short. The Bulls don't have the assets talent wise to acquire a stud without trading someone of decent value.

'
I think that asset is cap space. Now your not going to get stud, but you could call up Utah and take Millsap for nothing, but 2 round pick they never see so they can resign Boozer. You could use that additonal 11 million in cap space to start call lottery team about their pick and taking back a bad contract in order to swap draft picks. There's many ways to go with this and you shouldn't resort to offering Johnson the max or near max

[DanTown8587]

Ray Allen didn't decline at 31. He was used less in Boston, ala what JJ would do. But I am not comparing what to do with JJ based on what Ray Allen did. JJ is a guy who has never missed time with an injury. He isn't a guy that has shown any signs of slowing down in his game. Yet because other guys did means he will? It's a stupid argument.

I also want to know how the Bulls become a title contender without Bosh, Wade or James? I mean only really Amare is a possible good enough player in FA for that to happen. I just think if given the option of taking on JJ on a less than favorable deal or passing on him, you just gave up a shot to be the #2 or #3 in the East (depending on what Cleveland, etc do).

I just think that this "wait until we can get another star later" part is a little short. The Bulls don't have the assets talent wise to acquire a stud without trading someone of decent value.

'
I think that asset is cap space. Now your not going to get stud, but you could call up Utah and take Millsap for nothing, but 2 round pick they never see so they can resign Boozer. You could use that additonal 11 million in cap space to start call lottery team about their pick and taking back a bad contract in order to swap draft picks. There's many ways to go with this and you shouldn't resort to offering Johnson the max or near max

Because of so many teams trading contracts, cap space is more available then ever. The draft is before FA, so your hands are tied in that route.

Look, AGAIN JJ at 6/90 is not max nor is it near max.

But I give up. People here want to only sign guys to below their market value or make these magical trades. I guess if Utah wants to give up the cheaper, young, healthier player than sure make a play. I sure don't think they will, hence the entire reason they are paying the tax and resigned him.

[Susan]

Because of so many teams trading contracts, cap space is more available then ever. The draft is before FA, so your hands are tied in that route.

Look, AGAIN JJ at 6/90 is not max nor is it near max.

But I give up. People here want to only sign guys to below their market value or make these magical trades. I guess if Utah wants to give up the cheaper, young, healthier player than sure make a play. I sure don't think they will, hence the entire reason they are paying the tax and resigned him.

Paying somebody on the downside of his career 15 million a year is a bad idea.

[DanTown8587]

Because of so many teams trading contracts, cap space is more available then ever. The draft is before FA, so your hands are tied in that route.

Look, AGAIN JJ at 6/90 is not max nor is it near max.

But I give up. People here want to only sign guys to below their market value or make these magical trades. I guess if Utah wants to give up the cheaper, young, healthier player than sure make a play. I sure don't think they will, hence the entire reason they are paying the tax and resigned him.

Paying somebody on the downside of his career 15 million a year is a bad idea.

Just guessing the down side of someone's career based on what other's did. YEAH!

[BrooklynBulls]

I'd go for JJ in an S&T if we get a big man with capspace. I'd definitely shoot for that Celtics 2-3 year window thingy.

[Susan]

Because of so many teams trading contracts, cap space is more available then ever. The draft is before FA, so your hands are tied in that route.

Look, AGAIN JJ at 6/90 is not max nor is it near max.

But I give up. People here want to only sign guys to below their market value or make these magical trades. I guess if Utah wants to give up the cheaper, young, healthier player than sure make a play. I sure don't think they will, hence the entire reason they are paying the tax and resigned him.

Paying somebody on the downside of his career 15 million a year is a bad idea.

Just guessing the down side of someone's career based on what other's did. YEAH!

You haven't refuted anything I've posted. I have 17 examples of players who fell apart after doing what JJ's in the midst of and you have yet to post anything besides, "meh, I dunno mang, I don't fink so". Well that's fine and good but don't go saying I'm wrong for not wanting JJ on any sort of large contract when you've got nothing to back up what you're thinking. History repeats itself, man.

I'm not guessing that JJ's on the downside of his career, I know it's the truth. Nobody gets better in the NBA after playing 26000 minutes. They get worse and they get worse quickly.

[DanTown8587]

You haven't refuted anything I've posted. I have 17 examples of players who fell apart after doing what JJ's in the midst of and you have yet to post anything besides, "meh, I dunno mang, I don't fink so". Well that's fine and good but don't go saying I'm wrong for not wanting JJ on any sort of large contract when you've got nothing to back up what you're thinking. History repeats itself, man.

I'm not guessing that JJ's on the downside of his career, I know it's the truth. Nobody gets better in the NBA after playing 26000 minutes. They get worse and they get worse quickly.

I can't have a debate when someone refuses to have a conversation about it. You listed 17 guys that were no where near as multi-talented as Joe Johnson and you listed guys who weren't that good. So yeah, they fell off. The 17 guys you listed, how many of those guys had played in four consecutive All-Star games and where even that good?

You notice that the really good players in the league don't just collapse at age 30? But the guys who don't seem to be that dedicated to playing the game do fade?

You seem to think it's gonna happen, so I'll ask:

Who are the All-Stars that had a history of being healthy, turned 30 and then fell off completely like the 17 guys you listed?

[Susan]

All of those guys had a history of being healthy. Every single one. They all played over 25000 minutes in their first 9 seasons. You don't do that by missing games.

Antoine Walker was a 3 time all star.
Shawn Marion was a 4 time all star.
Dave Cowens was a 7 time all star.
Isiah was a 12 time all star.
Marbury was a 2 time all star.
Hersey Hawkins played in an all star game.
Larry Bird was a 12 time all star.
Mitch Richmond was a 6 time all star.
Iverson was an 11 time all star.
Finley was a 2 time all star.
Pippen was a 7 time all star.
Nique was a 9 time all star.
Glen Rice was a 3 time all star.
Dave Bing was a 7 time all star.
Randy Smith was a 2 time all star.
Louie Dampier was a 7 time ABA all star.
Sam Lacey was an all star once.

So yeah. The All Star game is a subjective thing but every single guy I mentioned played in at least one. 9 of the guys played in at least 7 all star games. I don't think Joe Johnson is as multi talented as Nique, Pippen, Bird, Cowens, Iverson, IT or even Marion. I'd say it's not even close as a matter of fact.

[sonny]

All of those guys had a history of being healthy. Every single one. They all played over 25000 minutes in their first 9 seasons. You don't do that by missing games.

Antoine Walker was a 3 time all star.
Shawn Marion was a 4 time all star.
Dave Cowens was a 7 time all star.
Isiah was a 12 time all star.
Marbury was a 2 time all star.
Hersey Hawkins played in an all star game.
Larry Bird was a 12 time all star.
Mitch Richmond was a 6 time all star.
Iverson was an 11 time all star.
Finley was a 2 time all star.
Pippen was a 7 time all star.
Nique was a 9 time all star.
Glen Rice was a 3 time all star.
Dave Bing was a 7 time all star.
Randy Smith was a 2 time all star.
Louie Dampier was a 7 time ABA all star.
Sam Lacey was an all star once.

So yeah. The All Star game is a subjective thing but every single guy I mentioned played in at least one. 9 of the guys played in at least 7 all star games. I don't think Joe Johnson is as multi talented as Nique, Pippen, Bird, Cowens, Iverson, IT or even Marion. I'd say it's not even close as a matter of fact.

[DanTown8587]

All of those guys had a history of being healthy. Every single one. They all played over 25000 minutes in their first 9 seasons. You don't do that by missing games.

Antoine Walker was a 3 time all star.

A guy who literally all he did was chuck threes, shimy and eat his way out of the league.

Shawn Marion was a 4 time all star.

Slowed down for sure. Don't know, but one would say Marion playing games woefully out of position at the 4 and relying on extreme athletic ability to get by.

Isiah was a 12 time all star.

You are right, by 31 Isiah was done.

Marbury was a 2 time all star.

Marbury didn't slow down physically, teams just got tired of his act. And a guy no where near as able to do other things than score.

Hersey Hawkins played in an all star game.

A guy who was solid for sure, but he went from average to below average.

Larry Bird was a 12 time all star.

Bird had a horrible back that was always going to cut him down. Still had a per of 21 in his mid 30s.

Mitch Richmond was a 6 time all star.

Mitch was roughly the same scorer he was when he was 34 that he was when he was in his prime.

Iverson was an 11 time all star.

Iverson was still playing effectively until he was 32.

Finley was a 2 time all star.

Finley did breakdown.

Pippen was a 7 time all star.

Pippen's PER didn't drop until he was 33.

Nique was a 9 time all star.

Wilkins was great at 34 averaging 26 a game.

Glen Rice was a 3 time all star.

One dimensional scorer who was decent but outside of scooting was his only way to contribute.

I am not counting Cowens, Bing, Lacey, Dampier, Smith all played in the 70s and early 80s, a completely different era in terms of sports medicine and keeping care of you body. Now the guys you listed.

So yeah, the one dimensional players in this league or guys who never did anything but score fell off because they couldn't contribute. But guys who could still played well into their 30s.

Add to it, I think having JJ next to Rose makes Rose better and JJ could make the Bulls better in the short term to being #2 in the East, you won't do much better than that without Bosh, James or Wade.

[coldfish]

Based on the slobbernocking going on in the Bulls-Hawks game, this may be a moot point. The way the announcers are talking up JJ, he may be better than Lebron. If the Bulls do sign JJ, we can assume these things are pre-planned and that management has some influence over the announcers and broadcast.

[sonny]

Based on the slobbernocking going on in the Bulls-Hawks game, this may be a moot point. The way the announcers are talking up JJ, he may be better than Lebron. If the Bulls do sign JJ, we can assume these things are pre-planned and that management has some influence over the announcers and broadcast.

Was apparent the way they talked down Gordon, to the way they hyped the **** out of Taj early in the season

[The Explorer]

Max contract JJ coming off the bench behind Hinrich next season?

[DanTown8587]

Based on the slobbernocking going on in the Bulls-Hawks game, this may be a moot point. The way the announcers are talking up JJ, he may be better than Lebron. If the Bulls do sign JJ, we can assume these things are pre-planned and that management has some influence over the announcers and broadcast.

I laugh when they say stuff like that. I like JJ if no one is available and about 30-40 million less then Wade, etc. I don't want anything to do with him in equal status to those guys.

[Susan]

I already showed each one of their PERs. 7 out of 70 were above their career average after their 9th season. 10%. You can skew the numbers all you want. Those guys went from playing over 2700+ minutes a season to playing 1896 per season. Out of all of those guys, JJ has a higher win score than Walker.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... i?id=mgXif

Even still, those one dimensional players were more productive than JJ has been in his career. I've got stats that back up my claims. Pippen was still productive because he was significantly better player than JJ ever was.