You've got $24M to spend and there's no Big 3. Who ya got ?

[League Circles]

Ginobili is not leaving the Spurs for 7 or 8 mil a year. I'm sure they'll pay him that. I like him, but he's clearly 3rd or 4th choice at SG behind Wade, JJ, and possibly TMac.

[League Circles]

Not directed at anyone in particular, but the boner this board is growing for not-happening cheap contracts in the biggest FA bonanza ever is unbelievable. David Lee is getting more than 60 mil. Book it. Wade, Bosh, LBJ, Amare, JJ and Boozer will all get the max for year one of their new deals. Front loading is what every single team trying to get Lee, Boozer and Johnson will try. It won't differentiate us a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if Lee gets the max next year on a decreasing deal.

[coldfish]

Not directed at anyone in particular, but the boner this board is growing for not-happening cheap contracts in the biggest FA bonanza ever is unbelievable. David Lee is getting more than 60 mil. Book it. Wade, Bosh, LBJ, Amare, JJ and Boozer will all get the max for year one of their new deals. Front loading is what every single team trying to get Lee, Boozer and Johnson will try. It won't differentiate us a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if Lee gets the max next year on a decreasing deal.

While, I'm one of the leaders of that bandwagon, so I will reply.

I assume the goal is to create an elite team. Most of the elite teams in the NBA pay the luxury tax, making it so that individual salaries do not prevent other roster moves. The Bulls won't do that. Its not the end of the world, because teams have been able to win titles without paying the tax, but they did that by accumulating all value contracts.

Quite simply, in order to be elite, the Bulls need to put together a team that costs $67M that can outplay a team with a $80M payroll. You simply can't do that by giving David Lee or Joe Johnson nearly $20M per year while throwing $12m per year at Deng.

I would happily give Lee a max descending contract btw. That's only a 5/53 contract (roughly).

I also think that you are and Dan are underselling this. On one hand, you are saying this is going to be a big time bonanza, then you guys throw out low figures.
-I would even pay Lee 5/60. Its the 5/76 that worries me.
-I would pay JJ 5/65. Its the 5/95 that worries me.
-I would pay Boozer 5/70. Its the 5/95 that worries me.

Its not like you are talking 1M per year here. This is an extra 5M per year that could be used to fill out a roster. Look at the Hawks last night. They are a deep team. Even once you get starters, you are going to get killed in the playoffs if you rely on NBDL guys like Pargo and Murray. An extra few million can go a long way on the bench.

[jmajew]

Not directed at anyone in particular, but the boner this board is growing for not-happening cheap contracts in the biggest FA bonanza ever is unbelievable. David Lee is getting more than 60 mil. Book it. Wade, Bosh, LBJ, Amare, JJ and Boozer will all get the max for year one of their new deals. Front loading is what every single team trying to get Lee, Boozer and Johnson will try. It won't differentiate us a bit. I wouldn't be surprised if Lee gets the max next year on a decreasing deal.

While, I'm one of the leaders of that bandwagon, so I will reply.

I assume the goal is to create an elite team. Most of the elite teams in the NBA pay the luxury tax, making it so that individual salaries do not prevent other roster moves. The Bulls won't do that. Its not the end of the world, because teams have been able to win titles without paying the tax, but they did that by accumulating all value contracts.

Quite simply, in order to be elite, the Bulls need to put together a team that costs $67M that can outplay a team with a $80M payroll. You simply can't do that by giving David Lee or Joe Johnson nearly $20M per year while throwing $12m per year at Deng.

I would happily give Lee a max descending contract btw. That's only a 5/53 contract (roughly).

I also think that you are and Dan are underselling this. On one hand, you are saying this is going to be a big time bonanza, then you guys throw out low figures.
-I would even pay Lee 5/60. Its the 5/76 that worries me.
-I would pay JJ 5/65. Its the 5/95 that worries me.
-I would pay Boozer 5/70. Its the 5/95 that worries me.

Its not like you are talking 1M per year here. This is an extra 5M per year that could be used to fill out a roster. Look at the Hawks last night. They are a deep team. Even once you get starters, you are going to get killed in the playoffs if you rely on NBDL guys like Pargo and Murray. An extra few million can go a long way on the bench.

I do not see any team throwing money around foolishly. Joe Johnson, Amar'e, Boozer,and Lee are not max contract players. There is a reason Atlanta offered Joe Johnson 4/60. They know he is not a max player and know that a max contract for him could be team crippling...especially when you have Horford coming up for an extension in another year as well. A team like Atlanta may be better off doing a sign and trade with Joe Johnson at max money and possibly getting an expiring contract and a couple of young pieces.

There are only 8 players in the NBA that currently deserve max contracts. Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Durant, Kobe, Howard, Duncan, and Chris Paul.

[DanTown8587]

I also think that you are and Dan are underselling this. On one hand, you are saying this is going to be a big time bonanza, then you guys throw out low figures.
-I would even pay Lee 5/60. Its the 5/76 that worries me.
-I would pay JJ 5/65. Its the 5/95 that worries me.
-I would pay Boozer 5/70. Its the 5/95 that worries me.

I haven't thrown out low figures. I have said that
1. Lee won't be some cheap sign that others have
2. JJ could be had for 6/90 IMO. I want to see the team that offers more. I would do that deal and not think twice personally.
3. Haven't had any serious discussions about anyone else

For the record, here is what likely happens
Bosh, James, Wade=Max for six years
Amare=Somewhere just a little less (i.e max for four years or 6/110)
JJ=Somewhere from 6/90 to 6/100
Lee=5/75-6/90
Boozer=5/75
Gay=6/80 or 5/65

There are to many teams with cap space for these guys to come cheap.

[DanTown8587]

I do not see any team throwing money around foolishly. Joe Johnson, Amar'e, Boozer,and Lee are not max contract players. There is a reason Atlanta offered Joe Johnson 4/60. They know he is not a max player and know that a max contract for him could be team crippling...especially when you have Horford coming up for an extension in another year as well. A team like Atlanta may be better off doing a sign and trade with Joe Johnson at max money and possibly getting an expiring contract and a couple of young pieces.

There are only 8 players in the NBA that currently deserve max contracts. Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Durant, Kobe, Howard, Duncan, and Chris Paul.

One, NBA teams have never not overpaid for talent. Ben Gordon got 5/58 when he tried to sign for 6/54 the year before. Rashard Lewis got 6/118 when no one was within thirty million. Teams with a ton of cap space (read NY, NJ and Miami) have their hands tied. Miami can only get Wade to resign if they sign Boozer, etc. To sign him, they have to offer him a ton of money.

This is why Wade is ahead of great fits Amare, Lee or Boozer=Wade is worth the contract (hopefully) that he gets. Those others are not.

[coldfish]

I do not see any team throwing money around foolishly. Joe Johnson, Amar'e, Boozer,and Lee are not max contract players. There is a reason Atlanta offered Joe Johnson 4/60. They know he is not a max player and know that a max contract for him could be team crippling...especially when you have Horford coming up for an extension in another year as well. A team like Atlanta may be better off doing a sign and trade with Joe Johnson at max money and possibly getting an expiring contract and a couple of young pieces.

There are only 8 players in the NBA that currently deserve max contracts. Lebron, Wade, Bosh, Durant, Kobe, Howard, Duncan, and Chris Paul.

I don't remember the number of teams that have max contract slots, but its not a lot. If Bosh and Lebron change teams, you will use up a lot of the available money. The rest of the guys will be chasing less dollars than they want.

If Lebron and Bosh stay put, you will have a bunch of teams with a ton of money chasing few players. I could easily see NY giving massive offers to two 2nd tier guys. Then, desperate teams like Miami will be forced to match or watch Wade go to Chicago. It would be like a crazy game of dominoes where the only winners are the people who refuse to play. Who knows what the retards in NJ and Washington are going to do?

The key is getting one of the true max contract players. Their salary is limited and they are worth the money. You don't have to worry about overpaying Lebron, Bosh or Wade.

[League Circles]

Howe do you win by not getting a great player? IMO you are totally wrong on a few counts (which is rare because you're usually as right as anyone this side of Rerisen):

1. That the Bulls have to have a 67 mil team compete with an 80 mil team. I believe we will pay the tax (not that there will even be a tax by then) for a winner, and JR has confirmed that. If you don't buy into that, that's fair, but it's just as fair to feel the way I do.

2. That the great teams got to be great by assembling value contracts. Here is a list of the crappy contracts on the leagues best teams:

Cleveland - Shaq at 21 million
Atlanta - Jamal Crawford at 9.4 mil
Boston - Ray Allen at 19 mil, Paul Pierce at 20 mil is also bad I'd say
Orlando - Rashard Lewis at 18 mil, Vince Carter at 16.1 mil
Lakers - Morrison, Vujacic, Fischer and Walton combine for 20 mil
Dallas - Erick Dampier 12.1 mil, Matt Carrol 4.7 mil, even Jason Terry at 9.1 mil isn't too good
Denver - Kenyon Martin 16 mil
Phoenix - JRich 13.3 mil, Ben Wallace (yes, they're still paying him) 10 mil
Utah - AK47 16.5 mil, Kyle Korver 5.2 mil, even Okur and Millsap could be considered overpaid

Doesn't look like overpaid contracts have prevented any of these 9 teams from being, well, the best 9 teams in the league. The thing to note about almost all of these guys is that they are veterans who are no longer top options on their teams, but they are still quality players that help you win. If we don't get Lebron, Wade, or maybe Bosh or Amare, Derrick Rose needs to become a top superstar to win a title. No one is going to gift us a player nearly as good as Derrick. Pau Gasol was an anomaly in terms of the trade. There aren't a lot of bad contracts in the league now days for good players on bad teams who need to get rid of them. Almost all of the overpaid deals are on good teams. What does that tell you? Yes, overpaying a JJ or Boozer is not nearly as appealing as getting Wade, LBJ, Bosh or Amare on what I'd consider a very fair max deal, but it's a lot better than waiting, without cap space mind you, for a home run trade. John Paxson has been waiting for a home run trade for his entire tenure. The closest he has got was Eddy Curry for Noah. We have usually had desirable young players, draft picks and expiring contracts to offer. Yet we haven't been able to make a good deal. I'm telling you, the Gasol deal was an anomaly. Counting on that to happen again would be a big mistake. This currently has only 3 really good players. We need more. We'll likely have to get one this offseason in FA, develop one from the draft (might end up being Taj, James Johnson or a future pick), and get lucky with an MLE pickup that is really good (like something near a Ron Artest caliber signing) in order to win a title. By the way Derrick Rose can eventually leave if he wants and if we wasted our one chance with cap room waiting for a future gift from another team, he will not be too happy.

I really think it's time to emulate what other successful teams have done and not try to win on the cheap or wait forever for the perfect storm. I agree that signing Joe Johnson to a max deal (starting at max, even I wouldn't give him the full max) doesn't make it likely that we win a title, but if Rose keeps growing, Deng and Noah improve a little, and we're smart with the complimentary pieces, AND JJ doesn't fall off the face of the earth (I don't think he will), we at least will have a shot. The best shot we could have expected to have IMO (assuming losing out on the best prizes this summer).

[jmajew]

Howe do you win by not getting a great player? IMO you are totally wrong on a few counts (which is rare because you're usually as right as anyone this side of Rerisen):

1. That the Bulls have to have a 67 mil team compete with an 80 mil team. I believe we will pay the tax (not that there will even be a tax by then) for a winner, and JR has confirmed that. If you don't buy into that, that's fair, but it's just as fair to feel the way I do.

2. That the great teams got to be great by assembling value contracts. Here is a list of the crappy contracts on the leagues best teams:

Cleveland - Shaq at 21 million
Atlanta - Jamal Crawford at 9.4 mil
Boston - Ray Allen at 19 mil, Paul Pierce at 20 mil is also bad I'd say
Orlando - Rashard Lewis at 18 mil, Vince Carter at 16.1 mil
Lakers - Morrison, Vujacic, Fischer and Walton combine for 20 mil
Dallas - Erick Dampier 12.1 mil, Matt Carrol 4.7 mil, even Jason Terry at 9.1 mil isn't too good
Denver - Kenyon Martin 16 mil
Phoenix - JRich 13.3 mil, Ben Wallace (yes, they're still paying him) 10 mil
Utah - AK47 16.5 mil, Kyle Korver 5.2 mil, even Okur and Millsap could be considered overpaid

Doesn't look like overpaid contracts have prevented any of these 9 teams from being, well, the best 9 teams in the league. The thing to note about almost all of these guys is that they are veterans who are no longer top options on their teams, but they are still quality players that help you win. If we don't get Lebron, Wade, or maybe Bosh or Amare, Derrick Rose needs to become a top superstar to win a title. No one is going to gift us a player nearly as good as Derrick. Pau Gasol was an anomaly in terms of the trade. There aren't a lot of bad contracts in the league now days for good players on bad teams who need to get rid of them. Almost all of the overpaid deals are on good teams. What does that tell you? Yes, overpaying a JJ or Boozer is not nearly as appealing as getting Wade, LBJ, Bosh or Amare on what I'd consider a very fair max deal, but it's a lot better than waiting, without cap space mind you, for a home run trade. John Paxson has been waiting for a home run trade for his entire tenure. The closest he has got was Eddy Curry for Noah. We have usually had desirable young players, draft picks and expiring contracts to offer. Yet we haven't been able to make a good deal. I'm telling you, the Gasol deal was an anomaly. Counting on that to happen again would be a big mistake. This currently has only 3 really good players. We need more. We'll likely have to get one this offseason in FA, develop one from the draft (might end up being Taj, James Johnson or a future pick), and get lucky with an MLE pickup that is really good (like something near a Ron Artest caliber signing) in order to win a title. By the way Derrick Rose can eventually leave if he wants and if we wasted our one chance with cap room waiting for a future gift from another team, he will not be too happy.

I really think it's time to emulate what other successful teams have done and not try to win on the cheap or wait forever for the perfect storm. I agree that signing Joe Johnson to a max deal (starting at max, even I wouldn't give him the full max) doesn't make it likely that we win a title, but if Rose keeps growing, Deng and Noah improve a little, and we're smart with the complimentary pieces, AND JJ doesn't fall off the face of the earth (I don't think he will), we at least will have a shot. The best shot we could have expected to have IMO (assuming losing out on the best prizes this summer).

I agree with you as long as nothing changes in the next CBA. Unfortunately, we know changes are going to happen. Yes the large contracts will be grandathered in but it is possible they may do away with LLE and MLE altogether, impose a hard cap, etc. These changes should be a huge factor in the decisions teams make this offseason. I don't propose the Bulls win on the cheap, I think they should prepare for the future. Rose, Noah, and Deng are all 24 or under. They aren't even in their primes yet. I do not think overpaying for players is the way of the future...it is better to be ahead of the curve than behind it.

[Jester]

LeBron will stay in Cleveland. Bosh will join Wade in Miami.

Those who think we can land any of the next tier of free agents without "overpaying" are delusional. There is too much competition out there. Amare and JJ will take the big money offered by NY to rejoin their old coach in a system in which they know they can thrive. Boozer has demonstrated he is a mercenary who will go to whatever team will pay him the most money. Since the Bulls won't "overpay" for a guy like Boozer, he'll land with a team that will "overpay", or will at least outbid the Bulls. NJ, Washington, and the Clippers all have max money available. At least one of them will outbid Chicago for Boozer and possibly even Lee.

I believe that is where we are headed. Lee, if we're lucky. Add some quality vets on short term contracts, such as J O'Neal, maybe Raja Bell. We'll field a competitive team in a fiscally responsible manner. I really hope I'm wrong, but if I were to put money on an anticipated result, it would be on something like this.

I remain disappointed the front office did not go hard after Amare at the deadline. I think he could have been had for TT, Salmons (or the expirings we got for him), James and our first round pick. Amare was looking for a fresh start - add him to the roster and the Bulls could make a strong playoff run THIS SEASON. Invest in him short term, show him how he fits on this team, give him a taste of Chicago's fan base and he would likely have signed an extention we could live with.

It's like Monte Hall said to the Bulls front office "You can have Amare right now, or you can take what's behind door number 3". Without hesitation, the Bulls opt for door number three expecting to find one of LeBron, Bosh, or Wade. Instead there is a collection of barnyard animals. (audience groans). Thanks for playing.

[coldfish]

1. That the Bulls have to have a 67 mil team compete with an 80 mil team. I believe we will pay the tax (not that there will even be a tax by then) for a winner, and JR has confirmed that. If you don't buy into that, that's fair, but it's just as fair to feel the way I do.

I believe Jerry will pay the tax. He was extremely straightforward this summer. If the team gets to the conference finals, Jerry said he would pay the tax. Now, think about that. You have to create a team capable of playing with the big boys without paying the tax, THEN Jerry will be willing to give the money. I don't think you can get a conference finalist on $67M while overpaying a lot of people.

2. That the great teams got to be great by assembling value contracts. Here is a list of the crappy contracts on the leagues best teams:

Cleveland - Shaq at 21 million
Atlanta - Jamal Crawford at 9.4 mil
Boston - Ray Allen at 19 mil, Paul Pierce at 20 mil is also bad I'd say
Orlando - Rashard Lewis at 18 mil, Vince Carter at 16.1 mil
Lakers - Morrison, Vujacic, Fischer and Walton combine for 20 mil
Dallas - Erick Dampier 12.1 mil, Matt Carrol 4.7 mil, even Jason Terry at 9.1 mil isn't too good
Denver - Kenyon Martin 16 mil
Phoenix - JRich 13.3 mil, Ben Wallace (yes, they're still paying him) 10 mil
Utah - AK47 16.5 mil, Kyle Korver 5.2 mil, even Okur and Millsap could be considered overpaid

Doesn't look like overpaid contracts have prevented any of these 9 teams from being, well, the best 9 teams in the league.

Again, its about the tax.
http://hoopshype.com/salaries.htm

The only team above not paying the tax is Atlanta. If Jerry is willing to pay the tax before he gets an elite team, bad contracts don't matter. Pay JJ $30M for all I care, it will have no impact on team quality. Its only an issue because the Bulls will do things like not spend the MLE or give Gibson an extension or dump Noah, etc. if they are close to the tax barrier before they are elite.

Atlanta can overpay Crawford because they are underpaying:
Josh Smith: $10.8M
Bibby: $6.2M
Pachulia: $4.7M
Horford: $4.3M

I really think it's time to emulate what other successful teams have done and not try to win on the cheap or wait forever for the perfect storm. I agree that signing Joe Johnson to a max deal (starting at max, even I wouldn't give him the full max) doesn't make it likely that we win a title, but if Rose keeps growing, Deng and Noah improve a little, and we're smart with the complimentary pieces, AND JJ doesn't fall off the face of the earth (I don't think he will), we at least will have a shot. The best shot we could have expected to have IMO (assuming losing out on the best prizes this summer).

I agree. Do what other teams are doing. Pay the tax to win, like what Boston did. Jerry already said he wouldn't do that and *every* post in this thread that I have made was done with the assumption that he was telling me the truth. I don't like it, but I accept it. As such, I think that the Bulls have to do what Detroit and SA did earlier this decade, which was to accumulate a bunch of value contracts. Guys like Billups, Ginobli, Hamilton, Ben Wallace, Parker, etc. were all elite players on good contracts when their teams became elite without paying tax.

[League Circles]

Coldfish, I think our difference here lies in interpretation of JR's comments. IIRC, he has said he'd "pay the tax for a winner". To me, that means he'd pay the tax for a team expected to be a winner. Like, if we were 3rd in the east and could get a top quality MLE guy (say three years down the road) who might put us over the top (but also over the tax), I think he' do. I don't think the order of operations is as strict as you imply it to be.

[IllinoisReppa20]

well we might as well throw DW out the window because hes only 6 months younger than JJ or i forgot DW doesnt get injured a hella lot

[coldfish]

Coldfish, I think our difference here lies in interpretation of JR's comments. IIRC, he has said he'd "pay the tax for a winner". To me, that means he'd pay the tax for a team expected to be a winner. Like, if we were 3rd in the east and could get a top quality MLE guy (say three years down the road) who might put us over the top (but also over the tax), I think he' do. I don't think the order of operations is as strict as you imply it to be.

This isn't a matter of interpretation. He was asked this summer about luxury tax. He said he would pay tax for a winner, like he has several times when asked. The reporter actually followed up with the question and said "what does that mean?" and he said "top 4 team" (pause) "makes the conference finals".

I was surprised at the time, but he gave a pretty definitive line for what it would take for him to cross into the luxury tax barrier. He will not pay the tax for a team that *might* make the conference finals, only one that *has* made the conference finals.

I wish the search feature at realgm worked better, but it was discussed this summer.

[kyrv]

Coldfish, I think our difference here lies in interpretation of JR's comments. IIRC, he has said he'd "pay the tax for a winner". To me, that means he'd pay the tax for a team expected to be a winner. Like, if we were 3rd in the east and could get a top quality MLE guy (say three years down the road) who might put us over the top (but also over the tax), I think he' do. I don't think the order of operations is as strict as you imply it to be.

This isn't a matter of interpretation. He was asked this summer about luxury tax. He said he would pay tax for a winner, like he has several times when asked. The reporter actually followed up with the question and said "what does that mean?" and he said "top 4 team" (pause) "makes the conference finals".

I was surprised at the time, but he gave a pretty definitive line for what it would take for him to cross into the luxury tax barrier. He will not pay the tax for a team that *might* make the conference finals, only one that *has* made the conference finals.

I wish the search feature at realgm worked better, but it was discussed this summer.

We still don't know, does that mean if the Bulls are a top 4 conference team, would they make a move and pay the tax for a player that would logically take them into the top 2.

And obviously nothing JR says is legally binding, he can change his mind every day if he wants.

[coldfish]

We still don't know, does that mean if the Bulls are a top 4 conference team, would they make a move and pay the tax for a player that would logically take them into the top 2.

And obviously nothing JR says is legally binding, he can change his mind every day if he wants.

Again, I wish I could find the exact conversation without spending 2 hours searching for it. Its my recollection that he said he would pay for a conference finalist. Unless I am mistaken on the wording, that's pretty clear. He may change his mind of course, but that's just wishful thinking as it pertains to a discussion like this. That would be like me making team projections going forward with Noah as a legit post scorer. Its possible, but it hasn't happened yet and there are some clear signals that its not going to.

At the minimum, if someone is saying here that they think the Bulls should pay whatever they have to this summer regardless of cost and they are basing that on Jerry paying the tax, they should say so. From my perspective, that dramatically changes things.

[Ralphb07]

I think Cold Fish (there you go BrooklynBulls) is pretty accurate with what JR said, with the only thing not too sure about is if we had to be a ECF team already.Even with that he was clear this team had to be a elite team

IMO if John Paxson went to JR and said if we make this move I 100% believe it puts us over the top, JR does it. John has not yet done that though.

[BrooklynBulls]

Thanks a bunch, Ralph B.

[DanTown8587]

Highly implausible scenario:

Bulls can acquire Joe Johnson and Chris Bosh
How? They sign Bosh and S&T Kirk, JJ and two #1 to Washington or any team with cap space who wants that deal

Rose
JJ
Deng
Bosh
Noah

Bulls wouldn't pay the tax until year 3 of the extensions, would be interesting to see what JR does if that was on the table.