leyland for years of bad coaching (time to fire leyland)

[kellmellus50]

in 2006 he should have went with kenny rodgers1-4-7 0.71 era won every outing that year in the playoffs
he pitched him once he won they he held him back for later in detroit, by that time oakland won 3 straight and it never came back to detroit and we lost the series by his bad pitching line-up

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/ ... id=2635618

i was not a sparky fan because he relied on vets too much young people never had a chance and i am not a fan of leland.

http://blog.mlive.com/hugeblog/2011/04/ ... ger_j.html

[kellmellus50]

Why doesn't Jim Leyland play Tigers IF Ramon Santiago more?


From The Detroit News: http://detnews.com/article/20110404/SPO ... /Why-doesn’t-Jim-Leyland-play-Tigers-IF-Ramon-Santiago-more?#ixzz1IbNlIHXE

[chrbal]

Wow Coke really messed up the format...in the 80s. Babe Ruth should've never been traded. Pontiac should've never made the Aztec. All these are just as relevent/interesting as this.

[kellmellus50]

The point i am making is leyland has been making bad coaching deceisions all the time for many years, leaving everyone scratching their heads wondering what he's thinking.
I know the tigers will not fire him but i would in a heartbeat .

[TSE]

Title is misleading, almost suggests that this is the only thing Leland has blown when he in fact has blown every Tiger's season he has been here due to bad job performance. Same with DD. Not either of those guys have produced one quality season of professional and competent job performance to exceed my minimum of standards. And now we are presently blowing 2011, and soon to come, 2012 and beyond? We are NEVER going to succeed with these men and their flawed baseball strategies/philosophies that go against the science of the how the game works on so many absurd and offensively bastardizing levels. I should be in charge of this team, that way we can do things right for a change on the fundamentals of the game as well as the roster construction. It's easy if you have the right guy at the top, so why are we wasting our time with these losers, and is Illitch really that stinkin rich that he doesn't care about well over a hundred million dollars that he's lost that he should never have lost? That's the only question that really matters.

[kellmellus50]

TSE i agree with you it all started in the playoffs of 2006 and has snowballed to the point of fireing Leyland or let him retire.

[TSE]

Yeah I was actually complaining during the WS and everybody thought I was crazy. I was upset that DD and Leyland would somehow get credit for having done a good job and then get a leash to be here for several more years. I was right unfortunately. It was bad luck. Sure it would have been nice to win, but I still didn't want to win that way with those people and the way they manage the team/games. Absolutely depressing to lose the WS yet come so close that we get trapped with these foolish men that don't understand baseball at a high level.

[cochiseuofm]

Alright I'm not going to address the insanely dumb mindset that somehow 2006 was a bad year for the Tigers. But, we lost to St. Louis in the World Series kellmell, not Oakland who we swept in the ALCS in four games in one of the most magical moments of Detroit sports I can remember (Magglio hitting a walkoff home-run and Polanco practically dancing around the bases on his way home.) Try paying attention to details once in a while.

You guys really must not remember how bad the Tigers were before Leyland, back when we had Trammell on the bench. LOL @ the notion that 2006 was somehow disappointed, how spoiled Tigers fans must have become to think that now five years later. Even if we pitched Rogers in game 1, someone else would have had to beat the Cardinals two more times in that series and clearly that didn't happen either way. To argue that pitching Rogers in the first game instead of the second would have changed the results so drastically that we would have gone from losing 4 games to 1 to winning is a little moronic. Baseball is a team game, and no one pitcher can win a seven game series. Just look at how Cliff Lee failed with the Rangers last year in the WS despite sparkling performances the rest of the playoffs.

[TSE]

2006 was a good year in terms of the overall result, if a team could go to the WS every year, then that would obviously be good. But having a good year is one thing, and assigning credit to DD and Leyland for that result is another. I'm not disputing the progress of making it to the WS, I'm disputing giving DD and Leyland credit for it, as I thought they should have been closer to fired than admired. And we didn't win, so we get MAJORLY PENALIZED by apparently DD and Leyland getting a lot of respect and credibility for that year, and that's all I'm saying is it was like a double edged sword, cause we lost, and we lost doubly by getting further stuck with those guys. I don't control who we keep or why we make those decisions, I'm just assuming that Illitch would have been impressed with them and more apt to buy into their BS spiel about their flawed baseball philosophies that they preach to him about the state of the team and where we are heading. They are either intentionally lying to the owner and conning him out of in effect hundreds of millions of dollars, or they are ignorant to the fact that they are unqualified professionals. Either way, I'm just pissed that Illitch buys what they are selling, cause I think they have junk goods in terms of understanding the game and strategy of baseball.

[cochiseuofm]

LOL TSE. Jim Leyland might not be perfect but he is a perfectly good manager with a good track record. He has won Manager of the Year three times and has a World Series ring from his time with the Marlins. He certainly did not "win credibility" by taking the Tigers to the World Series. He already had credibility from his days as the manager of the Pirates and the Marlins. And he has always been well-respected in baseball circles. And you may think he is awful, but his record with the Tigers overall is 38 games over .500, which isn't so bad that it deserves being denounced as if he were the worst manager in the majors.

I think someone fresh could be good for the Tigers too, but I appreciate Leyland and always liked him as a manager.

And Dombrowski is far from a terrible GM too. He got hired in 2002, when the Tigers were considered one of the worst teams in the history of the sport and the least favorable spot for players to go to. He took a terrible team and turned the roster upside down. He overpaid for big name players like Magglio and Pudge and the moves paid off. You might not remember this, but he was taking big risks on those players and they were moves that probably would have determined his job status with the Tigers. They paid off. He has drafted for power pitching primarily and more often than not his startegy paid off with either solid pitchers, like Verlander, or good trade bait, like Andrew Miller who helped net Cabrera.

And Dombrowski didn't need to win credibility either. He built successful teams in Montreal and Florida for a decade before coming to the Tigers, and he won a ring with the Marlins the same year Leyland did.

But you're right, the guy who assembled the ENTIRE team that went to the World Series and the guy who managed them to the brink of a title, no those guys deserve zero credit...

...please.

[TSE]

He won Manager of the Year 3x? So? Winning that award doesn't make you a good manager, it just means that people who voted for you believe that you are a good manager, and those are 2 different things. A lot more people believed that Obama would make a good President and voted for him too, but those same people now voted against him in public opinion polls. I didn't vote for him as Manager of the Year, and I don't know what those other people were smoking, but if they are ignorant about baseball then that's their problem not mine. I'm going with my understanding of baseball and my opinion of Leyland concludes that he's an absolutely terrible manager. Anybody who says differently is just ignorant as to the game of baseball and the finer points of what makes a manager good or bad.

And forget about his days as a manager of the Pirates or Marlins, cause I don't know anything about him from those days as I didn't follow those teams and watch them every day for countless years. I've followed the Tigers religiously for a long time, and I'm talking about what he is now, not what he used to be. Maybe he has brain problems such that he was good 20 years ago, but that's only a maybe, I'm only talking about what he's worth today as a Manager, and that is jack-squat, and I've never liked him since Day 1, cause he has constantly shown proof that he understands the game at a rudimentary level. It's so obvious.

And your so naive and obtuse with your assessment of DD. There is no GM in baseball that since his time with the Tigers has cost his team more money in the total of wasted money sent out combined with the opportunity of money we could have had come in that we were deprived of due to lack of quality job performance on his end. He has had a greater net effect of franchise deficiency than any GM of any sport in the time he has been here if you count wins/losses in relation to the money we spent along with the missed amount of wins and money that we should have had.

And please don't try and bring up one WS appearance as meaning very much, cause it doesn't. Our team wasn't constructed well that year and for the setup of the future at that time, and most teams in MLB don't get to spend as much as we do anyhow, so we should get there every now and again just with average GM's and Managers, but a great one should get us there virtually every year, cause the only teams that spend more money than us are all very lousy at managing their teams too, so we have no excuse to not being the best team in baseball considering we spend the most amount of money of every team that has intelligent management/coaches if we were to install intelligent management/coaches.

[cochiseuofm]

I haven't said Leyland has done a good job managing this year, in fact I've said twice that I agree he needs to go. My point was neither he or Dombrowski needs to win respect or credibility from you or anyone else, they already have it from their previous gigs. You have a knack for taking one of my points which is directly addressing something specific you said, then assuming it applies to something else. Example, I brought up past experience to point out they didn't need to win respect or credibility, you used it as reasoning that I thought Leyland was doing a good job this year.

Leyland was a great manager his first year BTW, I don't care what you say. He got an average team, by your own admission, to overperform and make it all the way to the World Series. You can't have it both ways. You can't say the team wasn't built well and got lucky in 2006 and not give credit to the manager. And you also can't say the team was held back by the manager and not give credit to the GM who built the entire team.

And you're so narrow-minded that you can't even make valid points anymore. I don't believe your point on no GM costing his team more on wasted money because it based on a metric you just made up and didn't even bother to prove. You want me to take you seriously? Show me what formula you are using to determine this, or a link to an article on this, and I'll check your story out.

Finally, the WS did mean a lot. I remember it being the main reason my friends and I got back into baseball. It is also the main reason why the Tigers keep doing well in attendance and are able to afford a higher payroll these days. I don't really care if it meant nothing to you, you're one person. Take a poll of the Detroit fanbase and see if they think it meant anything to see the worst team in baseball win the AL in 2006.

[TSE]

He got them to perform? I don't know that. And a manager's job has a lot more to do beyond that as well. What a manager needs to do to maximize performance are activities and words which I and the rest of us are not privy to. And if he was able to do it then, why couldn't he do that every year? Maybe he didn't get them to perform and other factors contributed to that. Or maybe it was statistical happenstance that enough of our players just happened to do well, that's how the science of probability works, and there's a lot of statistical variance with hitting a baseball as it's a skill thing, but there's a lot of randomness to things that determine what happens before, during, and after a player swings at a baseball.

And the formula I use is pretty straightforward and logical. I look at all the elements of the game, from lineup creation, to bunting decisions, to PH decisions, to stealing decisions, etc. etc. etc. and I analyze every aspect of the game and the management of the game. I then watch this team play religiously, and the amount of inordinate things and illogical things that I see Leyland do is just astoundingly high, and thus I form a negative opinion of him.

[kellmellus50]

Quote:I then watch this team play religiously, and the amount of inordinate things and illogical things that I see Leyland do is just astoundingly high, and thus I form a negative opinion of him.

This is exactly what i see time and time again,and saying why did leyland do that ,or taking a pitcher out when it's too late .Sparky was another one leaving pitchers in the game too long.

[TSE]

It's the little things he can't figure out, like in this last game we were down 4 runs in the 9th and we had a 3-1 count, and our batter is swinging away like he's trying to win the game. There's no reason to try to aggressively create hits, we just needed to advance the lineup to qualify for a chance to tie or win, and he could have laid off that pitch and then hoped for possibly a free ball or a chance to swing at the next pitch, those are just better odds than to swing away and possibly create an out when even a HR doesn't help us any more than a walk. Leyland has major issues with green/yellow/red light decisions on players swinging, and he makes countless mistakes throughout the year on that one element alone. Add in about a dozen or so other elements and they all compound to create a huge disadvantage on our team's percentage chances of winning. He handicaps us terribly due to his ignorance of baseball strategy and game mechanics and fundamentals. We even lose edge because of him having Lamont at 3B who is the worst 3B coach I have ever noticed. That guy is one dumb oblivious guy, he has no ability to perceive what is going on and to properly direct our runners. Heck did you see Santiago blow through his stop sign when he knew how ridiculous it was to stop as Lamont was suggesting? Santago didn't even blink at that stop sign, he must have been thinking WTF? Lamont does stuff like that virtually every game and has hurt us majorly in many situations. Leyland is oblivious to how bad he is cause Leyland can't figure stuff out logically. He's just not a good "thinker" with a perverse outlook on baseball strategy that is flat out WRONG.

[cochiseuofm]

And the formula I use is pretty straightforward and logical. I look at all the elements of the game, from lineup creation, to bunting decisions, to PH decisions, to stealing decisions, etc. etc. etc. and I analyze every aspect of the game and the management of the game. I then watch this team play religiously, and the amount of inordinate things and illogical things that I see Leyland do is just astoundingly high, and thus I form a negative opinion of him.

LOL...first of all, I was asking about your formula to rate general managers, i.e. Dombrowski, not Leyland. This is what I said.

And you're so narrow-minded that you can't even make valid points anymore. I don't believe your point on no GM costing his team more on wasted money because it based on a metric you just made up and didn't even bother to prove. You want me to take you seriously? Show me what formula you are using to determine this, or a link to an article on this, and I'll check your story out.

It was your direct point about Dombrowski costing the team wasted money that I was referring to. Nothing related to Leyland here.

Second of all, it doesn't matter if you watch every game Leyland manages unless you watch an equal amount of games managed by every other manager. You can't make a good comparison or ranking system without finding something commonly measurable between multiple managers to rate them off of. That is Statistics 101.

[TSE]

It doesn't matter if the other managers do a good job or not if Leyland is doing a bad job. Even if every single other manager were the 29 worst people on the planet to be baseball managers, I still expect our manager to do a good job and strategize logically in such a way that enhances our ability to win games as opposed to decreasing our odds. Regardless of what any other manager does, Leyland is garbage, albeit not necessarily relative garbage compared to the other managers, but a garbage performance is still garbage. I have my own logic and understanding of the game of baseball as a reference point, and that's how I know he's awful.

And the formula for DD that determines how terrible he is, well we can use a rudimentary formula to put that in perspective.

Money spent divided by wins is going to be atrocious for him compared to the best. We have one of the highest payrolls in the league consistently from year to year, and we sure as heck don't win any special percentage of them. I also scored him on every transaction we do, and for many years the majority of his major decisions I have disagreed with as being logical. I don't like his trade choices/non-choices, and I don't like his contracts he offers out. I think there have been countless times where he has made completely illogical decisions that no highly intelligent/logical person would ever have made. There are MANY of these instances that I go through every single year, it's quite painful. So the formula of spending way too much money per win, and the painful annoyance of seeing this team make stupid transactions and more importantly fail to initiate the great theoretical trades that exist, and our lack of titles as well and credibility to win a title and multiple titles for each of those years as well as my current projection for our future outlook, is what contributes to my evaluation that he is an utter disgrace.

[kellmellus50]

Quote by TSE: We even lose edge because of him having Lamont at 3B who is the worst 3B coach I have ever noticed. That guy is one dumb oblivious guy, he has no ability to perceive what is going on and to properly direct our runners. Heck did you see Santiago blow through his stop sign when he knew how ridiculous it was to stop as Lamont was suggesting? Santago didn't even blink at that stop sign, he must have been thinking WTF? Lamont does stuff like that virtually every game and has hurt us majorly in many situations.

I had to laugh i see this happen all the time.

[TSE]

Yeah my baseball philosophy understands that errors during play are inevitable, but I have no tolerance for errors by managers and coaches, there is no excuse for that. That doesn't mean you are right 100% of the time you send a runner, but as long as you have a proper logical basis for choosing when to gamble for it or to take a conservative hold, then you can't go wrong. A good 3B coach should have zero errors during the course of a season. Same with a Manager on all elements of the game. That doesn't mean to squeeze every time or not squeeze every time, but having a strategic decision mix and case by case supporting logic behind choosing when and how often do make each type of baseball decision there is, is also a process that a Manager can and should go error free on. Our staff makes too many voluntary and unnecessary mistakes that expose us to bonus categories of risk that we don't have to expose ourselves to. Those numbers of those odds just beat us down on a regular ongoing basis.

[chrbal]

so let me guess. Leyland has nothing to do with the current winning streak and overall success.