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Offseason Stuff

ajaX82
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Offseason Stuff 

Post#1 » by ajaX82 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 4:39 pm

Bad news coming down the pipe, from Mlive:

Leyland called Guillen Monday in Venezuela to try to explain his side and said they reached an understanding. "He's fine," Leyland said Monday. "It was a good conversation."

"Carlos Guillen is our left fielder," Leyland told MLB.com. "He's our everyday left fielder, and hopefully he'll be productive. If he's looking for reassurance, we want him to play every day."

Leyland said late Monday they agreed he would have a full-time role in left, preferably nine innings.


This suggests two things:

A) Leyland is and will be still manager. horrific if true

B) Guillen is not only gone but will be starting in Left all season. again, horrific decision.

We can only hope these are just rumors....




http://blog.mlive.com/cutoffman/2009/10 ... uille.html
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#2 » by Liqourish » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:10 pm

Terrible news. I like Carlos, but he didn't play because he wasn't good. He can field for **** anymore, and he could only bat situationally. What the hell was he expecting?

I'm more concerned over Edwin and Verlander. Edwin is a FA and Verlander could potentially sign an extension. To have both of those guys, along with Porcello, locked up for a couple years can only help our rotation. Also, Bonderman has been told that he will be a starting pitcher next season for sure. I'm not sure i'm happy with that until we see how he plays.

Polanco appears to be gone, even though he wants to stay. Tigers really like Scott Sizemore and want him playing 2B.
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#3 » by ajaX82 » Tue Oct 20, 2009 8:33 pm

^ Im cool with Sizemore playing second full time next year. We need to get younger. Im also hoping to snag Edwin and Justin into some extensions, with Verlander as very long term.

I still think Bondo is done. Hid velocity was garbage when he was back. Not many people can recover from all those shoulder/arm surgeries.
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#4 » by TSE » Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:48 am

I will interject my comments regarding this Guillen rumor, but in a roundabout way that addresses a few other issues that interrelate. In general, I'm not terribly concerned with the vast majority of things that have to do with our outfield and pitching staff. As far as Guillen as a player is concerned though, yes he does have some fielding issues, but as a hitter he does have the potential to make up for his defensive deficiency. He did have a rough last year, but he still managed a .419 slugging avg despite his low batting average, so it's not completely worthless, but is down from his career avg of .446. The year before last year it was .436. The 2 years prior to that and 3 of the last 4 years he was over .500. This is what we MUST have from him. So the question becomes, can Guillen hit north of a .500 slugging average for 2010, or will he hit near his career average of .446 or below? I am somewhat suspicious that he can shoot back up to .500, but if he can do that then we will be fine there. My instincts tell me that it is a game of chance on which we will see, maybe a 50/50 coin flip, and I don't think that is a good enough chance in our favor to roll the die. Whether we win that gamble or not is anybody's guess.

Those decisions really shouldn't make us or break us. Whether or not we will have a strong 2010 as well as 2011-2015 really depends on what we do with the 4 key infield spots that are our glaring weakness: 3B / SS / 2B / C. If we lose Polanco and utilize Sizemore, that should be ok, so that knocks it down to 3. That means we have now 3B / SS / C that are going to cripple us if we don't make MASSIVE improvements. I doubt we will do much at 3B, so we will have to gamble that Inge can reduce his strikeouts and raise his batting average and power, we need him to do all 3 of those things.

Really, the top 2 offseason stories that I care most about are SS and C, we really need to enhance those positions otherwise it's going to be a long year. There isn't a TON of FAs that can help, and the Tigers likely won't want to spend money for a Miguel Tejada anyhow, so the only way we can really hit a home run in those 2 categories is to make some strategic trades, which ties in to this Guillen story.

If Guillen is the every day LF, then that means less at bats for guys like Raburn and Thames, which isn't convenient, because clearly those guys are superior hitters to the glut of guys that are penciled in as our projected infielders sans Cabrera.

Thus, what we NEED to do regarding LF, is we NEED to do a trade. We need to find a buyer for one or more of Guillen / Thames / Raburn / Ramirez and shift our OF equity into a chip to help us improve an infield position. If it was up to me, I would rather trade Guillen because I think that the odds of Thames or Raburn hitting at a high enough of an efficiency are a little more secure than Guillen's chances. With Guillen's much larger contract and age, he is the value play to dump off in a trade in the category of these 4 players. Ramirez is a wildcard, so we won't get much value in a trade and we are better off rolling the die with him a little before committing to him long term or dealing him away.

So trade Guillen and then try to trade either Thames or Raburn might be also a good idea if the price is right in other teams evaluating those players favorably. With Guillen's contract though, it might be tough to deal him at all, so we might have to take the 50/50 gamble on him and just pray for the best, which puts us in a conundrum and makes things even more interesting.

Thus, there is ANOTHER choice we could make that would solve this crowded OF equity as well as our SS problem. It's a VERY high risk choice that also would be somewhat controversial, but given the circumstances of having too many OFs, and too high of a salary for Guillen w/too much uncertainty with him and age to trade him and in conjunction with having a MAJOR hole at SS that we can't fix with spending more money, MAYBE, just MAYBE our best solution is to let Guillen play SS tandem with Santiago. (Santiago then can get more play time last year by spelling Sizemore at 2B and get a piece of both spots, which also allows us to DH or PH Guillen on days that Santiago is at SS)

Now I know what you are all thinking, is that crazy? Why yes it is, because Guillen is too old to play there, and the last year he played SS he had a .955 Fielding Pct which is not great, and who knows if that could dip even lower. BUT, the few years before his .955 of 2007, he was at .975 from 2004 and 2005. Granted he is getting older and less athletic, but it could be possible for him to hold down numbers that may get destroyed by other SSs, but the gap between how poor he is there could actually still help us in comparison to what we had with Everett, and here's how. Everett, had a FP of .970 last year, but his SLG pct was a terrible .350. There is ACTUALLY room for Guillen to suck defensively and use his last year SLG pct of .419, his career of .446, and his top end possibility of .500+ to more than make up for his fielding deficiency. If we can't trade him, or trade the other OFs that we don't have room for, then it might be the only solution to all of our problems. That way we are gambling on Guillen to beat out Everett's .325 SLG pct of last year instead of a Thames / Raburn / Ramirez SLG pct of .450-.500+. By the way, Thames and Raburn have career SLG pcts of .491 and .461 respectively, while Everett's is .351. (Ramirez doesn't count due to small sample size and his wildcard status)

In conclusion, if I had to pick today, I'd sooner stick Guillen at SS and pray to God that it wouldn't backfire in my face before I would anoint him as the everyday LF. And I know that sounds scary as heck, it's not that I WANT to do that, cause if it was up to me, I would be signing Miguel Tejada so damn fast to play SS, and there is no way that Illitch could stop me because I would never leave his office until he finally gave in and let me do it, I'd die of starvation or thirst before I would quit on filibustering my case that we need to sign Tejada, but all things considered, it is a possible solution, and it is the most $ economical solution if pinching pennies is important, which apparently it is extremely important due to our shockingly inept results last year.

(although this is assuming that Guillen is upset with his status because he can make a case for being able to play SS, which I suspect is possible, especially knowing that we can move the floor down on his FP as a result of our inability to spend money for a traditionally sound alternative which we don't have if we can't sign Tejada.)

Now, let me finally add this. I don't think for a second that we will actually see Guillen at SS under this theory, because the only way that could happen would be if Leyland and DD had analyzed that the SLG pct that Guillen can overtake Everett on can make up for his FP deficiency. They won't look at that comparison, because if they appreciated the relationship between FP and SLG pct, we wouldn't have EVER signed Everett in the first place. That numerical analysis would have made Everett stick out like such a sore thumb, and the Tigers would have realized WAY back before the season started that signing Everett is an impossible consideration because that would make him our clearcut weakest link. But that's not what happened, because Leyland and DD do not know how to properly compare FP #s to SLG pct #s, thus coming around to THIS particular theory/analysis has a very remote chance of happening. It would take an alteration of their baseball philosophy at the very core of it, which is not something most people like to do with their philosophies. I wish they would and see things with more of a logical interpretation and Saberesque nature, but they aren't numbers guys. They are old fashioned guys, and "defense wins championships" mentalities, and thus we won't see them reconstruct their general philosophy of baseball.

And that is why we are seeing this story today of Leyland telling Guillen he will play LF, cause he has no other place to put him, and he won't dissect these numbers or audit his baseball philosophy.
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#5 » by ajaX82 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 4:10 pm

Scott Sizemore broke his ankle last week. awesome

He is supposed to be ready for spring training, but still not a great sign
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#6 » by TSE » Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:27 pm

If it was up to me I would be keeping Polanco regardless of whether Sizemore broke his leg or not. I'd want to at least trade Polanco away for something or let another team sign him after offering arbitration in order to get the draft picks. Not coming up with the money to get something out of Polanco's departure is just tough to swallow. On another board I was campaigning heavily for trading him after his big year in 2007 when his stock was high, specifically so that we could avoid a problem like this, as well as get a nice payment for a player that I felt was highly overrated. We could have made a brilliant trade with him. Opportunities to get a nice value for a player that everybody perceives to be better than he is doesn't happent that often, and the Tigers blew it bigtime. I will never forgive them for failing to see the strategy in trading Polanco when his stock was so high.

A MASSIVE mistake by DD.
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#7 » by Liqourish » Thu Nov 12, 2009 7:24 pm

Polanco wins a gold glove. I wouldn't let him walk for nothing.

Rumors are, the Tigers are actively looking for trades. but surprising the two names I've been hearing flaoting around are Curtis Granderson and Edwin Jackson. Those are NOT the guys to trade!! Dammit DD, get rid of Dontrelle, Nate, Bondo, Zumaya, etc Get rid of the dead weight. Don't move the guys that actually play well for the team. I understand you want to save some money, but not at the expense of the team.
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#8 » by ajaX82 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 12:31 am

Liqourish wrote:Polanco wins a gold glove. I wouldn't let him walk for nothing.

Rumors are, the Tigers are actively looking for trades. but surprising the two names I've been hearing flaoting around are Curtis Granderson and Edwin Jackson. Those are NOT the guys to trade!! Dammit DD, get rid of Dontrelle, Nate, Bondo, Zumaya, etc Get rid of the dead weight. Don't move the guys that actually play well for the team. I understand you want to save some money, but not at the expense of the team.


Hey i agree but who the hell wants Robetson, with his inflated ERA and horrific contract? Same for the others. Its not that we shouldnt try to get rid of them...its that nobody wants them, and for good reason. Who is going to take on Nates contract? No one
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#9 » by Liqourish » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:53 am

Well moving Grandy and Edwin aren't the answers either. Our best assets are our 5 youngin's. Verlander, Porcello, Edwin, Cabrera, Granderson. They are who we should be building around. Not trading off to find pieces to put around Laird, Magglio, Guillen, Thames, etc.
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#10 » by Liqourish » Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:40 pm

97.1 the ticket is going crazy with Tiger fans pissed off about the possibility of trading Grandy and Edwin while guys like Magglio with be making $18 million next year. If Dave D. trades them, I think he'll lose a big chunk of the fanbase. All it is is rumors right now and people are pissed.
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#11 » by ElectricMayhem » Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:15 am

Yeah, I'm not a huge baseball fan, but Granderson is probably the main reason I was drawn back into the Tigers. If they send him to the Yankees for prospects, they'd have trouble drawing more fans than the Lansing Lugnuts.
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#12 » by RustInPeace » Sat Nov 14, 2009 2:51 am

If they trade away Granderson to the ****ing Yankees I will cry buckets.
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#13 » by ajaX82 » Sat Nov 14, 2009 4:53 pm

I just want to go on record as saying trading Granderson is not the answer unless Wilken Ramirez is showing flashes of greatness.

The point of trading Edwin is that we wont be able to sign him next season prolly. Better to get value now than to see him walk in a year
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#14 » by Liqourish » Sat Nov 14, 2009 8:03 pm

Tigers talking to Angels about Granderson. Dammit Dave.... DON'T DO IT!!!
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#15 » by HeroicKennedy » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:32 pm

Granderson is a victim of bad contracts, unfortunately. Guys like Magglio, Dontrelle, Robertson, all making way too much and producing way too little. And no one will trade for them, so you're stuck with them.

So who do they deal to save money? High quality players.
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#16 » by Bartender » Fri Nov 20, 2009 9:00 pm

I hate the business side of sports.
TSE wrote:Wow I actually like this trade, good job Mayhew!
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#17 » by Liqourish » Sun Nov 22, 2009 5:31 pm

Why the hell is Dave talking to Seattle about trading Edwin/Grandy for prospects? dammit Dave...
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#18 » by Piston Pete » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:26 pm

Can we buy-out Ordonez?

A cheap 2b I'd like to target if Polanco leaves - Orlando Hudson.

A cheap SS I'd like to target would be Orlando Cabrera.

Both have really good gloves and both would be upgrades offensively.

I'd love an offseason where we sign Hudson, Cabrera, and Rich Harden.
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#19 » by ajaX82 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:53 am

We already have our 2b.... Scott Sizemore

We do need a SS. another pitcher would be good as well
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Re: Offseason Stuff 

Post#20 » by ajaX82 » Wed Nov 25, 2009 1:54 am

DetNews saying that Cabrera is on the market as well.

If this is true, than a big **** you! to Dave Dombrowski. He is the last player we should consider trading.

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