Post Mortem 2023-24

[JujitsuFlip]

I just found last season's thread and a lot of the questions are still relevant today, 13 months later, so will copy and paste.

Where to from here?

Do we keep JBB?

Do we do the unthinkable and consider trading Mitchell?

Do we trade Allen and attempt to open up the floor more?

Do we just run it back and attempt to sign some shooters with the MLE?

Do we retain Okoro, and if so, how high do we go?

Is there a chance that Altman's seat it getting a little warm?

What to do with pick #20?

[toooskies]

Obviously Mitchell/Garland is the big issue that needs resolving. Mitchell and Garland need to have a sit-down and figure out if Garland should fire his agent or if one of them need to leave town.

JBB should only be kept if we have a candidate who we think is better. Unlike last offseason, I can't justify any of the candidates in terms of experience. I have less confidence regarding young coaching prospects. At the very least, he got every one of Cleveland's core four to flash a bit of their potential talent in the playoffs.

Mitchell, Allen, and Mobley are all extension-eligible. Obviously Mitchell's extension has taken all the focus. Mobley guaranteed himself a max with that Celtics series, but maybe the Cavs can keep it at the 25% level rather than adding escalators for all-NBA.

Altman acquired a lot of talent in Cleveland but we're definitely at a point where a ton of his major and minor moves haven't paid off like you'd hope. His big free agency season last year was a bit of a playoff bust, with only Strus being playable-- and even then not being the shooter people hoped. Sexton and Okoro are picks that you'd do differently with hindsight. The unconventional team construction has only paid off modestly and it hasn't proven strong enough to overcome the narratives that it can't work and is holding guys back.

Depending on how the tea leaves are turning out, #20 is a player that can shoot and is 6'8" or taller. I've got Kyle Filipowski if he slides, DaRon Holmes, Tristan DaSilva as guys I have my eyes on. But packaging LeVert and/or Niang with #20 in a deal like Osman-for-Strus last summer seems viable. The first trade target I'd ask about is Dorian Finney-Smith.

[ijspeelman]

I guess I'll talk about what I want and then what I expect.

I am very happy to not be the GM in this scenario. There is both a lot riding on Koby and a lot that he cannot necessarily control. Garland, who may or may not be on the team this upcoming Fall, said it best last year in his pre-season interview where he said that the expectation is to improve year-to-year. Make the playoffs, then win a round, then win two rounds, etc. That is where I assume Koby's expectations start, but to balance all the plates he has to balance and complete that goal may not be possible. I am not going to have a season expectation results-wise until I see the roster on game day one next year. My minimum expectation is some post-season run.

I have never been a proponent of JB, but I have also never been a denouncer of JB. I do think his time is and will be over this off-season. I think a lot of the hit pieces that have come out on him in the last 24 hours have kinda swayed me. It seemed from the outside (at least to me) that the players liked him and he held a good locker room, but once you lose the locker room and aren't overachieving... its time.

It is anyone's guess on if Mitchell resigns or doesn't. I lean towards he does, but that is more just vibe than actual logic lol. I think the easy answer that everyone has said to if we trade D Mitch or not is if he resigns or not.

I love me some Jarrett Allen, but I do think they are going to put their chips on Mobley to be the full time five. Allen is coming off looking pretty good in the season and post-season so I think this coupled with his two years left on the contract is the most value he will have.

I assume we offer the QO to Okoro and match if anyone tries to sign. I don't think he gets a contract over $10m per year. I think if we could sign him to a Dean Wade type contract then we would. He's a guy I like a lot as a depth piece.

Altman's seat is warm, but I don't expect him gone until this team is unrecognizable.

I'd like them to trade #20 and *insert player under contract here* for *insert wing here*.

No mention of Garland, but want to comment on it bc he's been my favorite Cav since 2021-22 and has given me some of my favorite recent Cavs memories. He had a legitemately bad year this year and we can blame it on injuries or something else, but he just needs to be better or back to normal next year if we keep him. I will sentimentally be upset if he is traded, but I understand it from the FO's point of view and Garland's point of view of feeling held back by D Mitch (at least according to Klutch lol).

This is lame, but I couldn't sleep last night thinking about this off-season. So you can say I am very excited to see what happens

[toooskies]

I have never been a proponent of JB, but I have also never been a denouncer of JB. I do think his time is and will be over this off-season. I think a lot of the hit pieces that have come out on him in the last 24 hours have kinda swayed me. It seemed from the outside (at least to me) that the players liked him and he held a good locker room, but once you lose the locker room and aren't overachieving... its time.

I would note that there's really only one hit piece, and its entire purpose is to destabilize the Cavs and free up talent. It's to get big assets moving so LeBron can find a costar for a lower price. Whether that's directly (i.e. a Mitchell or Garland trade to the Lakers) or a downstream piece that comes available. Liquidity is good for the Lakers.

The big reported incident of Koby criticizing JBB for overplaying Mitchell was from December. This was before 18-2, before the playoff series win and a respectable performance against the Celtics. This was notably precisely the point where JBB might've been fired. This is a leftover from a piece one of the authors was writing for a midseason JBB firing that never happened.

The other bits I'm sure you could gather from anybody. And it isn't like these practices were from late in the season-- the Cavs literally had no practice days for most of their post-all-star stretch.

JBB isn't without criticism, but anything in the Shams/Vardon/Lloyd piece is just a gossip reporting dump that was gathered and framed in a particular way for a particular purpose.

[ijspeelman]

I have never been a proponent of JB, but I have also never been a denouncer of JB. I do think his time is and will be over this off-season. I think a lot of the hit pieces that have come out on him in the last 24 hours have kinda swayed me. It seemed from the outside (at least to me) that the players liked him and he held a good locker room, but once you lose the locker room and aren't overachieving... its time.

I would note that there's really only one hit piece, and its entire purpose is to destabilize the Cavs and free up talent. It's to get big assets moving so LeBron can find a costar for a lower price. Whether that's directly (i.e. a Mitchell or Garland trade to the Lakers) or a downstream piece that comes available. Liquidity is good for the Lakers.

The big reported incident of Koby criticizing JBB for overplaying Mitchell was from December. This was before 18-2, before the playoff series win and a respectable performance against the Celtics. This was notably precisely the point where JBB might've been fired. This is a leftover from a piece one of the authors was writing for a midseason JBB firing that never happened.

The other bits I'm sure you could gather from anybody. And it isn't like these practices were from late in the season-- the Cavs literally had no practice days for most of their post-all-star stretch.

JBB isn't without criticism, but anything in the Shams/Vardon/Lloyd piece is just a gossip reporting dump that was gathered and framed in a particular way for a particular purpose.

I realize I am falling right into its trap, but indicating that multiple players are unhappy and including points up the Celts series makes me think he has lost the locker room.

I agree with your post that we kinda need someone we already like more than JB before parting ways, but it does just seem best for both parties to exit the relationship at this point. I know fans have very little power over these things, but fans can drive the toxicity around their teams (be that coaches, players, etc) and that can directly affect the Cavs revenue. I know a few peeps at the beginning of the season said they are off the Cavs ride until JB is gone (did they fulfill that promise or just speak sweet nothings, idk and am too lazy to check).

I usually hate the whole "this coaches gameplan, rotations, time outs, challenges, etc suck" argument bc obviously as an average fan we have no idea the data/analysis/information that informs the decisions they are making. I say this bc I think he has been given a unique roster that is hard to generate offense out of, but I don't think he's done his work in the regular season to experiment and find methods that semi-consistently work.

I still subscribe to the idea that Mitchell and Garland can work together in the theory. Both are theoretically good to great spacers that defenses have to worry about. Both should be working to be so much better off-ball and the FO should be pushing both in that direction. Instead we have the same offense we had back in 2020-21 where a guard brings up the ball, we start a play on their side where the other guard (probably Sexton in my 20-21 example) stands on the opposite wing five feet from the three point line waiting for a reset. I'd like them to at least try to occupy their defenders with some pin-downs to the corner, having the guard start in the corner and Iverson cut into the middle (maybe this leads to a guard-guard screen where one ghost screens or slips into the paint). I'd like to see them preach to Mobley and Allen that, yes you may need to stand in the corner, but if you are doing that run to the shooter on the weak-side where you probably already are and run an off-ball screen to free them when the strong-side drives or just generally pin-down for the corner.

I realize there are probably other factors at play for why these kinds of things are not happening and not that JB and staff didn't think of it or don't want to try it, but our best half-court stuff comes when we are running dynamic sets and not basic PNRs.

[JonFromVA]

I have never been a proponent of JB, but I have also never been a denouncer of JB. I do think his time is and will be over this off-season. I think a lot of the hit pieces that have come out on him in the last 24 hours have kinda swayed me. It seemed from the outside (at least to me) that the players liked him and he held a good locker room, but once you lose the locker room and aren't overachieving... its time.

I would note that there's really only one hit piece, and its entire purpose is to destabilize the Cavs and free up talent. It's to get big assets moving so LeBron can find a costar for a lower price. Whether that's directly (i.e. a Mitchell or Garland trade to the Lakers) or a downstream piece that comes available. Liquidity is good for the Lakers.

The big reported incident of Koby criticizing JBB for overplaying Mitchell was from December. This was before 18-2, before the playoff series win and a respectable performance against the Celtics. This was notably precisely the point where JBB might've been fired. This is a leftover from a piece one of the authors was writing for a midseason JBB firing that never happened.

The other bits I'm sure you could gather from anybody. And it isn't like these practices were from late in the season-- the Cavs literally had no practice days for most of their post-all-star stretch.

JBB isn't without criticism, but anything in the Shams/Vardon/Lloyd piece is just a gossip reporting dump that was gathered and framed in a particular way for a particular purpose.

I would also note that the piece claiming Rich Paul would be talking to Koby about Garland trades if Mitchell extends was not attributed to Rich Paul, but just "sources". So, while there could be manipulation involved in this leak and maybe it's to try to benefit the Lakers, there are other possibilities. For instance, Kyrie's unhappiness and trade demand was never supposed to leak, and as far as I've seen we've never found out who leaked it or why; but it could have just been some random from Kyrie's circle or some nobody with the Cavs.

[toooskies]

I have never been a proponent of JB, but I have also never been a denouncer of JB. I do think his time is and will be over this off-season. I think a lot of the hit pieces that have come out on him in the last 24 hours have kinda swayed me. It seemed from the outside (at least to me) that the players liked him and he held a good locker room, but once you lose the locker room and aren't overachieving... its time.

I would note that there's really only one hit piece, and its entire purpose is to destabilize the Cavs and free up talent. It's to get big assets moving so LeBron can find a costar for a lower price. Whether that's directly (i.e. a Mitchell or Garland trade to the Lakers) or a downstream piece that comes available. Liquidity is good for the Lakers.

The big reported incident of Koby criticizing JBB for overplaying Mitchell was from December. This was before 18-2, before the playoff series win and a respectable performance against the Celtics. This was notably precisely the point where JBB might've been fired. This is a leftover from a piece one of the authors was writing for a midseason JBB firing that never happened.

The other bits I'm sure you could gather from anybody. And it isn't like these practices were from late in the season-- the Cavs literally had no practice days for most of their post-all-star stretch.

JBB isn't without criticism, but anything in the Shams/Vardon/Lloyd piece is just a gossip reporting dump that was gathered and framed in a particular way for a particular purpose.

I would also note that the piece claiming Rich Paul would be talking to Koby about Garland trades if Mitchell extends was not attributed to Rich Paul, but just "sources". So, while there could be manipulation involved in this leak and maybe it's to try to benefit the Lakers, there are other possibilities. For instance, Kyrie's unhappiness and trade demand was never supposed to leak, and as far as I've seen we've never found out who leaked it or why; but it could have just been some random from Kyrie's circle or some nobody with the Cavs.

It's Shams, he isn't publishing anything with Rich Paul's name in it without his permission.

[toooskies]

Read on Twitter

[ijspeelman]

Read on Twitter

I like that

[ijspeelman]

Does Marcus Morris' last game make anyone want to re-sign him?

I am seeing the sentiment over on reddit that we "under-utilized" him and we MUST re-sign him. If he wants a vet min, I'm down I guess, but I think he was utilized effectively and would prefer him to not really get minutes in the playoffs lol (I know that wasn't really an option this year)

[JujitsuFlip]

Does Marcus Morris' last game make anyone want to re-sign him?

I am seeing the sentiment over on reddit that we "under-utilized" him and we MUST re-sign him. If he wants a vet min, I'm down I guess, but I think he was utilized effectively and would prefer him to not really get minutes in the playoffs lol (I know that wasn't really an option this year)

I'd re-sign him for the vet min, i don't see why not.

[JonFromVA]

I would note that there's really only one hit piece, and its entire purpose is to destabilize the Cavs and free up talent. It's to get big assets moving so LeBron can find a costar for a lower price. Whether that's directly (i.e. a Mitchell or Garland trade to the Lakers) or a downstream piece that comes available. Liquidity is good for the Lakers.

The big reported incident of Koby criticizing JBB for overplaying Mitchell was from December. This was before 18-2, before the playoff series win and a respectable performance against the Celtics. This was notably precisely the point where JBB might've been fired. This is a leftover from a piece one of the authors was writing for a midseason JBB firing that never happened.

The other bits I'm sure you could gather from anybody. And it isn't like these practices were from late in the season-- the Cavs literally had no practice days for most of their post-all-star stretch.

JBB isn't without criticism, but anything in the Shams/Vardon/Lloyd piece is just a gossip reporting dump that was gathered and framed in a particular way for a particular purpose.

I would also note that the piece claiming Rich Paul would be talking to Koby about Garland trades if Mitchell extends was not attributed to Rich Paul, but just "sources". So, while there could be manipulation involved in this leak and maybe it's to try to benefit the Lakers, there are other possibilities. For instance, Kyrie's unhappiness and trade demand was never supposed to leak, and as far as I've seen we've never found out who leaked it or why; but it could have just been some random from Kyrie's circle or some nobody with the Cavs.

It's Shams, he isn't publishing anything with Rich Paul's name in it without his permission.

The question is still, why?

Rich Paul has Dan Gilbert on speed dial.

Did Jeannie Buss stop taking his calls?

If the leak was intentional, who does it serve?

[toooskies]

I would also note that the piece claiming Rich Paul would be talking to Koby about Garland trades if Mitchell extends was not attributed to Rich Paul, but just "sources". So, while there could be manipulation involved in this leak and maybe it's to try to benefit the Lakers, there are other possibilities. For instance, Kyrie's unhappiness and trade demand was never supposed to leak, and as far as I've seen we've never found out who leaked it or why; but it could have just been some random from Kyrie's circle or some nobody with the Cavs.

It's Shams, he isn't publishing anything with Rich Paul's name in it without his permission.

The question is still, why?

Rich Paul has Dan Gilbert on speed dial.

Did Jeannie Buss stop taking his calls?

If the leak was intentional, who does it serve?

It's partly to add public permission/pressure to break up the team, in service to the Cavs' front office.

It's partly to broadcast to other teams that they should start thinking about offers for his client, in service to the Cavs to get the best offer. It's effectively making other teams call the Cavs with better offers.

It's partly in service to Rich Paul, who gets to wield a bit of power over the whole scenario.

It's in service to LeBron James, who needs some player churn in the league to shake pieces loose on disappointed non-contenders to add to his own team, or find a way to move teams himself.

It's partly a juicy gossip bone to throw to these media members. Shams hasn't had much to report on this offseason.

It's very specifically not for the benefit of Darius Garland even though that's entirely the goal of the theoretical advocacy.

[ijspeelman]

What is the exact day that Mitchell can sign the better extension this off-season?

[JonFromVA]

It's Shams, he isn't publishing anything with Rich Paul's name in it without his permission.

The question is still, why?

Rich Paul has Dan Gilbert on speed dial.

Did Jeannie Buss stop taking his calls?

If the leak was intentional, who does it serve?

It's partly to add public permission/pressure to break up the team, in service to the Cavs' front office.

It's partly to broadcast to other teams that they should start thinking about offers for his client, in service to the Cavs to get the best offer. It's effectively making other teams call the Cavs with better offers.

It's partly in service to Rich Paul, who gets to wield a bit of power over the whole scenario.

It's in service to LeBron James, who needs some player churn in the league to shake pieces loose on disappointed non-contenders to add to his own team, or find a way to move teams himself.

It's partly a juicy gossip bone to throw to these media members. Shams hasn't had much to report on this offseason.

It's very specifically not for the benefit of Darius Garland even though that's entirely the goal of the theoretical advocacy.

The Cavs FO likes to leak this sort of thing after a trade goes down so the fan base doesn't feel betrayed (see, Nance Jr, Larry). Leaking it before doesn't really serve them. Koby Altman can call other GM's and sneak Garland in to trade discussions without making it seem completely obvious he's trying to dump him. Ideally he can try to make it look like it's the other GM's idea.

LeBron might like to see the Lakers offer the Cavs all the spare change they've got for Mitchell or Garland, but it's not going to move the needle unless Davis or James are involved.

That Rich and the Cavs may have discussed this makes some sense, but the leak itself still seems unintended to me UNLESS the goal was to make Don think twice about extending with the Cavs. If Darius would prefer to remain on the Cavs and see Don traded this Summer, this might help get that done?

[toooskies]

The question is still, why?

Rich Paul has Dan Gilbert on speed dial.

Did Jeannie Buss stop taking his calls?

If the leak was intentional, who does it serve?

It's partly to add public permission/pressure to break up the team, in service to the Cavs' front office.

It's partly to broadcast to other teams that they should start thinking about offers for his client, in service to the Cavs to get the best offer. It's effectively making other teams call the Cavs with better offers.

It's partly in service to Rich Paul, who gets to wield a bit of power over the whole scenario.

It's in service to LeBron James, who needs some player churn in the league to shake pieces loose on disappointed non-contenders to add to his own team, or find a way to move teams himself.

It's partly a juicy gossip bone to throw to these media members. Shams hasn't had much to report on this offseason.

It's very specifically not for the benefit of Darius Garland even though that's entirely the goal of the theoretical advocacy.

The Cavs FO likes to leak this sort of thing after a trade goes down so the fan base doesn't feel betrayed (see, Nance Jr, Larry). Leaking it before doesn't really serve them. Koby Altman can call other GM's and sneak Garland in to trade discussions without making it seem completely obvious he's trying to dump him. Ideally he can try to make it look like it's the other GM's idea.

LeBron might like to see the Lakers offer the Cavs all the spare change they've got for Mitchell or Garland, but it's not going to move the needle unless Davis or James are involved.

That Rich and the Cavs may have discussed this makes some sense, but the leak itself still seems unintended to me UNLESS the goal was to make Don think twice about extending with the Cavs. If Darius would prefer to remain on the Cavs and see Don traded this Summer, this might help get that done?

Even if the Lakers don't have the assets to make an offer for Mitchell/Garland, the Cavs moving one of them satisfies one other richer buyer on the market, giving them an opportunity at whoever Mitchell/Garland displaces as well as making a lesser prize (Dejounte Murray?) cheaper.

There aren't a lot of sellers in the market right now (Atlanta and... ???) and so destabilizing any team serves the buyers without many assets.

[JujitsuFlip]

What is the exact day that Mitchell can sign the better extension this off-season?

Idk, a great question. I hope it is before the draft, so we can get some draft assets thrown in, if Mitchell refuses.

[JonFromVA]

It's partly to add public permission/pressure to break up the team, in service to the Cavs' front office.

It's partly to broadcast to other teams that they should start thinking about offers for his client, in service to the Cavs to get the best offer. It's effectively making other teams call the Cavs with better offers.

It's partly in service to Rich Paul, who gets to wield a bit of power over the whole scenario.

It's in service to LeBron James, who needs some player churn in the league to shake pieces loose on disappointed non-contenders to add to his own team, or find a way to move teams himself.

It's partly a juicy gossip bone to throw to these media members. Shams hasn't had much to report on this offseason.

It's very specifically not for the benefit of Darius Garland even though that's entirely the goal of the theoretical advocacy.

The Cavs FO likes to leak this sort of thing after a trade goes down so the fan base doesn't feel betrayed (see, Nance Jr, Larry). Leaking it before doesn't really serve them. Koby Altman can call other GM's and sneak Garland in to trade discussions without making it seem completely obvious he's trying to dump him. Ideally he can try to make it look like it's the other GM's idea.

LeBron might like to see the Lakers offer the Cavs all the spare change they've got for Mitchell or Garland, but it's not going to move the needle unless Davis or James are involved.

That Rich and the Cavs may have discussed this makes some sense, but the leak itself still seems unintended to me UNLESS the goal was to make Don think twice about extending with the Cavs. If Darius would prefer to remain on the Cavs and see Don traded this Summer, this might help get that done?

Even if the Lakers don't have the assets to make an offer for Mitchell/Garland, the Cavs moving one of them satisfies one other richer buyer on the market, giving them an opportunity at whoever Mitchell/Garland displaces as well as making a lesser prize (Dejounte Murray?) cheaper.

There aren't a lot of sellers in the market right now (Atlanta and... ???) and so destabilizing any team serves the buyers without many assets.

The thing is, Rich doesn't have to leak anything publicly to make that happen, he should be able to back-channel the information where it needs to go.

He does have an obligation first and foremost to Garland.

Maybe LeBron doesn't have time to work the back-channels, maybe he's the leak. :shrugs:

[toooskies]

The Cavs FO likes to leak this sort of thing after a trade goes down so the fan base doesn't feel betrayed (see, Nance Jr, Larry). Leaking it before doesn't really serve them. Koby Altman can call other GM's and sneak Garland in to trade discussions without making it seem completely obvious he's trying to dump him. Ideally he can try to make it look like it's the other GM's idea.

LeBron might like to see the Lakers offer the Cavs all the spare change they've got for Mitchell or Garland, but it's not going to move the needle unless Davis or James are involved.

That Rich and the Cavs may have discussed this makes some sense, but the leak itself still seems unintended to me UNLESS the goal was to make Don think twice about extending with the Cavs. If Darius would prefer to remain on the Cavs and see Don traded this Summer, this might help get that done?

Even if the Lakers don't have the assets to make an offer for Mitchell/Garland, the Cavs moving one of them satisfies one other richer buyer on the market, giving them an opportunity at whoever Mitchell/Garland displaces as well as making a lesser prize (Dejounte Murray?) cheaper.

There aren't a lot of sellers in the market right now (Atlanta and... ???) and so destabilizing any team serves the buyers without many assets.

The thing is, Rich doesn't have to leak anything publicly to make that happen, he should be able to back-channel the information where it needs to go.

He does have an obligation first and foremost to Garland.

Maybe LeBron doesn't have time to work the back-channels, maybe he's the leak. :shrugs:

I doubt Garland was ready to say that he didn't want to play with Mitchell anymore literally an hour after the Cavs got eliminated.

[jbk1234]

I have never been a proponent of JB, but I have also never been a denouncer of JB. I do think his time is and will be over this off-season. I think a lot of the hit pieces that have come out on him in the last 24 hours have kinda swayed me. It seemed from the outside (at least to me) that the players liked him and he held a good locker room, but once you lose the locker room and aren't overachieving... its time.

I would note that there's really only one hit piece, and its entire purpose is to destabilize the Cavs and free up talent. It's to get big assets moving so LeBron can find a costar for a lower price. Whether that's directly (i.e. a Mitchell or Garland trade to the Lakers) or a downstream piece that comes available. Liquidity is good for the Lakers.

The big reported incident of Koby criticizing JBB for overplaying Mitchell was from December. This was before 18-2, before the playoff series win and a respectable performance against the Celtics. This was notably precisely the point where JBB might've been fired. This is a leftover from a piece one of the authors was writing for a midseason JBB firing that never happened.

The other bits I'm sure you could gather from anybody. And it isn't like these practices were from late in the season-- the Cavs literally had no practice days for most of their post-all-star stretch.

JBB isn't without criticism, but anything in the Shams/Vardon/Lloyd piece is just a gossip reporting dump that was gathered and framed in a particular way for a particular purpose.

I would also note that the piece claiming Rich Paul would be talking to Koby about Garland trades if Mitchell extends was not attributed to Rich Paul, but just "sources". So, while there could be manipulation involved in this leak and maybe it's to try to benefit the Lakers, there are other possibilities. For instance, Kyrie's unhappiness and trade demand was never supposed to leak, and as far as I've seen we've never found out who leaked it or why; but it could have just been some random from Kyrie's circle or some nobody with the Cavs.

You misread that. The exact quote is that Paul is ready to work with Altman on finding Garland a new team if Mitchell extends. Klutch is 100% the source fot that.

Kyrie's camp leaked the trade demand because the Cavs ignored it with the hope cooler heads prevailed.