Love Bought Out

[JujitsuFlip]

This is probably pretty standard buyout language where the player gives up half of the money from the next contract. Which is why we didn't learn the buyout number until the Heat deal was done.

Typically they give back what they're gonna sign for, at least from everything i can remember.

Love has always been about money though and this is no different.

I think it's Kevin's way of showing he's not a vet minimum player AND the Heat can offer him 120% more than that number next season which will them a leg up on any team only willing to pay him the vet min.

I get why he did it, he'll have an opportunity to play a bunch too. I just think it's lame on his part after all the free money the Cavs gave him over 9 seasons. Like he can't give the Cavs back the full $3 million? No, he wants to use it as an opportunity to earn even more money this season, ultra lame move, imo.

[JonFromVA]

Typically they give back what they're gonna sign for, at least from everything i can remember.

Love has always been about money though and this is no different.

I think it's Kevin's way of showing he's not a vet minimum player AND the Heat can offer him 120% more than that number next season which will them a leg up on any team only willing to pay him the vet min.

I get why he did it, he'll have an opportunity to play a bunch too. I just think it's lame on his part after all the free money the Cavs gave him over 9 seasons. Like he can't give the Cavs back the full $3 million? No, he wants to use it as an opportunity to earn even more money this season, ultra lame move, imo.

It's an unfortunate end to his time in Cleveland, but what he gave back was fine. It's enough for us to sign someone and stay out of the luxury tax - if we can find someone worth signing. Beyond that? More power to him to getting some extra money and trying to set up a situation where can at least try to prove he still belongs in the league.

I don't know his thumb situation - presumably the Cavs do, but it really should be fully healed up soon if not already and if Kevin finds his shot again we know first hand his shooting can be a difference maker.

So, like usual we're left with some question marks that may never be publicly answered, starting with the most benign possibility that JBB is just tired of trading his defense for offense. Defense always shows up, while 3pt shooting runs hot & cold. So, maybe he doesn't want to lose a playoff series because Kev's shot goes cold in the clincher?

The winning streak the team went on after pulling Kev from the rotation certainly supports the idea we need consistent defense more than the extra shooting/spacing.

But it wouldn't surprise me if there were other contributing factors beyond Love seeing his career flash before his eyes and acting out, but it would just be speculation. I mean we could have just told him we were going to rest him up and get his thumb and back to 100% so he's ready to help us in the playoffs. Surely that would have fed his ego and kept him on board and wouldn't even be a complete lie, but we pushed that off the board and I imagine there's a reason we did.

Always seem to be something to do with egos and respect (aka money).

[toooskies]

This is probably pretty standard buyout language where the player gives up half of the money from the next contract. Which is why we didn't learn the buyout number until the Heat deal was done.

Typically they give back what they're gonna sign for, at least from everything i can remember.

Love has always been about money though and this is no different.

I think it's Kevin's way of showing he's not a vet minimum player AND the Heat can offer him 120% more than that number next season which will them a leg up on any team only willing to pay him the vet min.

The 50% returned salary claw-back actually both a) incentivizes the player to make the most money as possible and b) gives the buying-out team the biggest discount. If the Cavs wanted to claw back every dollar, then Love just signs a minimum contract and the Cavs only get $500k or so in cap space.

Love's going to want the tax MLE of he can get it and everybody can offer it.

[JujitsuFlip]

I think it's Kevin's way of showing he's not a vet minimum player AND the Heat can offer him 120% more than that number next season which will them a leg up on any team only willing to pay him the vet min.

I get why he did it, he'll have an opportunity to play a bunch too. I just think it's lame on his part after all the free money the Cavs gave him over 9 seasons. Like he can't give the Cavs back the full $3 million? No, he wants to use it as an opportunity to earn even more money this season, ultra lame move, imo.

It's an unfortunate end to his time in Cleveland, but what he gave back was fine. It's enough for us to sign someone and stay out of the luxury tax - if we can find someone worth signing. Beyond that? More power to him to getting some extra money and trying to set up a situation where can at least try to prove he still belongs in the league.

I don't know his thumb situation - presumably the Cavs do, but it really should be fully healed up soon if not already and if Kevin finds his shot again we know first hand his shooting can be a difference maker.

So, like usual we're left with some question marks that may never be publicly answered, starting with the most benign possibility that JBB is just tired of trading his defense for offense. Defense always shows up, while 3pt shooting runs hot & cold. So, maybe he doesn't want to lose a playoff series because Kev's shot goes cold in the clincher?

The winning streak the team went on after pulling Kev from the rotation certainly supports the idea we need consistent defense more than the extra shooting/spacing.

But it wouldn't surprise me if there were other contributing factors beyond Love seeing his career flash before his eyes and acting out, but it would just be speculation. I mean we could have just told him we were going to rest him up and get his thumb and back to 100% so he's ready to help us in the playoffs. Surely that would have fed his ego and kept him on board and wouldn't even be a complete lie, but we pushed that off the board and I imagine there's a reason we did.

Always seem to be something to do with egos and respect (aka money).

I'm not sure if JB is in lock step with the front office in those terms. He alway seems to bench guys then Cavs can't recoup any of the value from the asset, oh well.

[JonFromVA]

Typically they give back what they're gonna sign for, at least from everything i can remember.

Love has always been about money though and this is no different.

I think it's Kevin's way of showing he's not a vet minimum player AND the Heat can offer him 120% more than that number next season which will them a leg up on any team only willing to pay him the vet min.

The 50% returned salary claw-back actually both a) incentivizes the player to make the most money as possible and b) gives the buying-out team the biggest discount. If the Cavs wanted to claw back every dollar, then Love just signs a minimum contract and the Cavs only get $500k or so in cap space.

Love's going to want the tax MLE of he can get it and everybody can offer it.

Love's going to want a max deal ... if he can get it.

Miami and other team's may want to save their MLE for another player and if that's how things play-out, then the Heat can still pay him $3.6M without touching their exceptions. It's the sort of little advantage Altman tries to get.

[JonFromVA]

I get why he did it, he'll have an opportunity to play a bunch too. I just think it's lame on his part after all the free money the Cavs gave him over 9 seasons. Like he can't give the Cavs back the full $3 million? No, he wants to use it as an opportunity to earn even more money this season, ultra lame move, imo.

It's an unfortunate end to his time in Cleveland, but what he gave back was fine. It's enough for us to sign someone and stay out of the luxury tax - if we can find someone worth signing. Beyond that? More power to him to getting some extra money and trying to set up a situation where can at least try to prove he still belongs in the league.

I don't know his thumb situation - presumably the Cavs do, but it really should be fully healed up soon if not already and if Kevin finds his shot again we know first hand his shooting can be a difference maker.

So, like usual we're left with some question marks that may never be publicly answered, starting with the most benign possibility that JBB is just tired of trading his defense for offense. Defense always shows up, while 3pt shooting runs hot & cold. So, maybe he doesn't want to lose a playoff series because Kev's shot goes cold in the clincher?

The winning streak the team went on after pulling Kev from the rotation certainly supports the idea we need consistent defense more than the extra shooting/spacing.

But it wouldn't surprise me if there were other contributing factors beyond Love seeing his career flash before his eyes and acting out, but it would just be speculation. I mean we could have just told him we were going to rest him up and get his thumb and back to 100% so he's ready to help us in the playoffs. Surely that would have fed his ego and kept him on board and wouldn't even be a complete lie, but we pushed that off the board and I imagine there's a reason we did.

Always seem to be something to do with egos and respect (aka money).

I'm not sure if JB is in lock step with the front office in those terms. He alway seems to bench guys then Cavs can't recoup any of the value from the asset, oh well.

Well, Kevin was paid too much and valued too little around the league to do anything with his contract without sweeteners. Maybe we could have traded him in the off-season? That might have been our chance to "sell high"? Maybe jbk1234 would recall the mood on the T&T forum better than I, but I really can't remember the last time anyone thought Kevin had positive value.

Even after he helped us win a championship, a lot of people felt it was inspite of him.

[jbk1234]

Starting Sexton was a mandate from the FO after Love got hurt in Collin's rookie season ... you surely remember Ty Lue at first opposed it, developed mental problems over it and had to be bought out. Aren't we swell? Always willing to pay someone millions to go away.

The front office does need to protect the team, but the magic number is 36 ... that's how many minutes each member of the core-4 needs to play so 2 of them are on the floor at all times. I can understand wanting to get them up to that number and identifying a playoff rotation as a priority. On a slow paced team (even one that actually tries on defense) it should be possible as long as the training staff is allowed to do their job and make sure the players have recovery time.

But there are no back to backs in the playoffs, and the fact we've actually rested players on some of the recent ones is likely in co-operation with the training staff to try not to push dinged up players too hard.

So, I get it, even though JBB has made some mistakes and let the guys go too long at times, there will be important games ahead where if we want to win, we'll need to limit or eliminate second half rest. So, it may look lazy, but we can keep doing things like having DG roll the ball up the floor while the clock is stopped to buy some time if that's what the guys need.

There's a fine line between running players in to the ground .vs. building them up to the point they can be on the floor when you need them most, but fortunately (when healthy) we have redundancy in our core-4 and we should be able to do much better than in the LeBron days when we really couldn't afford to have him off the floor at all in a big game.

I don't know, it seems to me that if you're getting completely run out of gym 30 or so games in a row, as Sexton hunts for his shot while routinely missing open teammates, and the guy 18 months from his last all star appearance, who you just happened to give a massive extension, is growing visibly and increasingly frustrated by the awful basketball being played, perhaps it would behoove either the coach, the front office, or both, to amend said mandate before the situation goes nuclear.

I'm sorry, but that was an organizational failure.

Not at all, Beilein was brought in to spearhead the youth movement and try to develop Garland, Sexton, Windler and KPJ. Not to coddle Kevin Love, that ship sailed the previous season when we were getting blown out by opponents even before Love went down.

IMO, the only reason to watch or pay that team any attention was to see the kids play and hopefully develop. Kevin when frustrated just does not always act out in a productive manner - a flaw most people share.

We have different definitions of development. In any event, even if that was the long-term goal, staggering Sexton and Love, or even temporarily ramping down Sexton's minutes was definitely warranted. You don't hand Love that extension and then allow his trade value to crater so Sexton can play selfish, losing basketball uninhibited. Not if you're an organization that knows what it's doing.

[JonFromVA]

I don't know, it seems to me that if you're getting completely run out of gym 30 or so games in a row, as Sexton hunts for his shot while routinely missing open teammates, and the guy 18 months from his last all star appearance, who you just happened to give a massive extension, is growing visibly and increasingly frustrated by the awful basketball being played, perhaps it would behoove either the coach, the front office, or both, to amend said mandate before the situation goes nuclear.

I'm sorry, but that was an organizational failure.

Not at all, Beilein was brought in to spearhead the youth movement and try to develop Garland, Sexton, Windler and KPJ. Not to coddle Kevin Love, that ship sailed the previous season when we were getting blown out by opponents even before Love went down.

IMO, the only reason to watch or pay that team any attention was to see the kids play and hopefully develop. Kevin when frustrated just does not always act out in a productive manner - a flaw most people share.

We have different definitions of development. In any event, even if that was the long-term goal, staggering Sexton and Love, or even temporarily ramping down Sexton's minutes was definitely warranted. You don't hand Love that extension and then allow his trade value to crater so Sexton can play selfish, losing basketball uninhibited. Not if you're an organization that knows what it's doing.

Yeah, no. Every documented case we know about is because Kevin had an outburst and acted inappropriately. If anyone should have been benched it was Kevin because he was disrespecting his teammates/coach/team/the game/etc.

Young players missing stuff and making mistakes? You take them aside or talk about it in the locker-room, in practice. That's what our $30M veteran who was supposed to be helping these young men learn how to be a pro should have been doing.

As for trade value, we both know that went out the window the day he signed that contract. At best, we might have been able to use his salary to absorb a bigger salary; but our options were extremely limited after trading for Mitchell.

[jbk1234]

Not at all, Beilein was brought in to spearhead the youth movement and try to develop Garland, Sexton, Windler and KPJ. Not to coddle Kevin Love, that ship sailed the previous season when we were getting blown out by opponents even before Love went down.

IMO, the only reason to watch or pay that team any attention was to see the kids play and hopefully develop. Kevin when frustrated just does not always act out in a productive manner - a flaw most people share.

We have different definitions of development. In any event, even if that was the long-term goal, staggering Sexton and Love, or even temporarily ramping down Sexton's minutes was definitely warranted. You don't hand Love that extension and then allow his trade value to crater so Sexton can play selfish, losing basketball uninhibited. Not if you're an organization that knows what it's doing.

Yeah, no. Every documented case we know about is because Kevin had an outburst and acted inappropriately. If anyone should have been benched it was Kevin because he was disrespecting his teammates/coach/team/the game/etc.

Young players missing stuff and making mistakes? You take them aside or talk about it in the locker-room, in practice. That's what our $30M veteran who was supposed to be helping these young men learn how to be a pro should have been doing.

As for trade value, we both know that went out the window the day he signed that contract. At best, we might have been able to use his salary to absorb a bigger salary; but our options were extremely limited after trading for Mitchell.

You're acting like it was a couple of isolated incidents and not three months of Sexton chucking up shots, occasionally passing to TT in a crowded paint, all while using Love as a $30M decoy and the Cavs getting destroyed on the court. Chones and even Austin Carr were going in on Sexton well before Love finally lost it.

I'd invite you to go back and read your own contemporaneous observations. It was painfully bad and profoundly selfish basketball.

And even after the blowup, Lloyd reported that Portland offered expiring contracts for Love at the deadline, but the Cavs front office still wanted a first. The entire approach was schizophrenic. You give Love the extension, reportedly view him as a trade asset, and then allow a low IQ chucker with no court vision to burn down his trade value over the course of a half a season, and to what end?

What development actually occurred that season?

The situation was badly mishandled. You're free to disagree but I don't know a vet of Love's caliber who would've tolerated that nonsense and I can think of a few who would've reacted far worse.

[JujitsuFlip]

Love said he doesn't care if he starts for the Heat or not.

We'll see how 4 guys on a string plus Love works, guy didn't close out to the corner for 9 years as a Cav.

[jbk1234]

Love said he doesn't care if he starts for the Heat or not.

We'll see how 4 guys on a string plus Love works, guy didn't close out to the corner for 9 years as a Cav.

The Heat play zone so it may provide a little cover for Love as the high PNR is less of an issue. It may blow up on them against teams with good bigs who decide to get the ball to the big in Love's area of responsibility. They'll need to double, and rotations in a zone can be messy.

[JonFromVA]

We have different definitions of development. In any event, even if that was the long-term goal, staggering Sexton and Love, or even temporarily ramping down Sexton's minutes was definitely warranted. You don't hand Love that extension and then allow his trade value to crater so Sexton can play selfish, losing basketball uninhibited. Not if you're an organization that knows what it's doing.

Yeah, no. Every documented case we know about is because Kevin had an outburst and acted inappropriately. If anyone should have been benched it was Kevin because he was disrespecting his teammates/coach/team/the game/etc.

Young players missing stuff and making mistakes? You take them aside or talk about it in the locker-room, in practice. That's what our $30M veteran who was supposed to be helping these young men learn how to be a pro should have been doing.

As for trade value, we both know that went out the window the day he signed that contract. At best, we might have been able to use his salary to absorb a bigger salary; but our options were extremely limited after trading for Mitchell.

You're acting like it was a couple of isolated incidents and not three months of Sexton chucking up shots, occasionally passing to TT in a crowded paint, all while using Love as a $30M decoy and the Cavs getting destroyed on the court. Chones and even Austin Carr were going in on Sexton well before Love finally lost it.

I'd invite you to go back and read your own contemporaneous observations. It was painfully bad and profoundly selfish basketball.

And even after the blowup, Lloyd reported that Portland offered expiring contracts for Love at the deadline, but the Cavs front office still wanted a first. The entire approach was schizophrenic. You give Love the extension, reportedly view him as a trade asset, and then allow a low IQ chucker with no court vision to burn down his trade value over the course of a half a season, and to what end?

What development actually occurred that season?

The situation was badly mishandled. You're free to disagree but I don't know a vet of Love's caliber who would've tolerated that nonsense and I can think of a few who would've reacted far worse.

Are you mixing up the Lue/Drew season with the Beilein/Bickerstaff season? Because I thought we were primarily talking about the later when we'd already brought in Darius Garland because we didn't trust Collin would ever become a PG.

That first season where Collin struggled to run the team saw very little of Kevin because he was out hurt for most of it. As for development it was certainly there for Collin, but nothing has changed in that he needs to be paired with a PG or other playmaker.

As for the Cavs, Altman executed a classic tank strategy of making sure there was nobody on the team who could orchestrate an offense properly and that certainly worked. It was not Kevin or Tristan's place to be publicly complaining about that. I get they were under the impression we were going to try to compete, but they need to look in the mirror for why that didn't happen.

Our "starting lineup" of George Hill, Rodney Hood, Cedi, Tristan and Kevin was -4.1 ... and with Collin instead of Kevin with that same group they were -0.9. So, once Love got hurt, Altman had seen enough and pivoted. Thank goodness.

So, that next season Garland wasn't fully recovered or physically ready for the NBA, but he showed improvement. Absolutely no reason not to continue to pour playing time in to our young back-court.

A lot of veterans have dealt with the frustration of being on a tanking team without causing problems. Kevin has always apologized and admitted he was wrong after each of his public outbursts - often talking about his mental issues. There's no point excusing them.

And if you want an example of a vet who behaved the right way? How about Larry Nance Jr who replied to an anonymous scout who called Collin Sexton an "a--hole" and said none of his teammates like him; with this:

"Whoever said this is a moron with zero knowledge of anything going on in Cleveland. I’d hide behind anonymity too if I was this bad at my job"

Oh, and btw, Larry was no longer on the Cavs when he decided to tweet that.

[JonFromVA]

Love said he doesn't care if he starts for the Heat or not.

We'll see how 4 guys on a string plus Love works, guy didn't close out to the corner for 9 years as a Cav.

The Heat play zone so it may provide a little cover for Love as the high PNR is less of an issue. It may blow up on them against teams with good bigs who decide to get the ball to the big in Love's area of responsibility. They'll need to double, and rotations in a zone can be messy.

Well, Kevin should be an improvement over Duncan Robinson, but it all comes down to whether he can still shoot.

Heck, he was great on the Cavs as a backup when he was making shots. It seems likely to me the Cavs either doubted his finger and back would get much better - or JBB is just tired of having to trade defense for 3pt shooting offense which is inconsistent by nature.

[JujitsuFlip]

Love said he doesn't care if he starts for the Heat or not.

We'll see how 4 guys on a string plus Love works, guy didn't close out to the corner for 9 years as a Cav.

The Heat play zone so it may provide a little cover for Love as the high PNR is less of an issue. It may blow up on them against teams with good bigs who decide to get the ball to the big in Love's area of responsibility. They'll need to double, and rotations in a zone can be messy.

Well, Kevin should be an improvement over Duncan Robinson, but it all comes down to whether he can still shoot.

Heck, he was great on the Cavs as a backup when he was making shots. It seems likely to me the Cavs either doubted his finger and back would get much better - or JBB is just tired of having to trade defense for 3pt shooting offense which is inconsistent by nature.

Love isn't replacing Jimmy Neutron.

Love will be taking minutes from Martin, Orlando Robinson, and probably to a lesser extent Highsmith.

[ijspeelman]

I'm excited for basketball to start back up today so we can stop talking about Kevin Love honestly

Though this is funny...

Read on Twitter

[El Hespiritu]

Holistic.

I posted this Allen's joke just at this same time at the Spanish Forum:

Spoiler:

http://foros.acb.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=504377&start=5700#p32664430

I'll try to watch Denver game replayed tomorrow if I can get some free Wi-Fi.
We should dedicate an hypothetical W to Love.

With his ups, downs success and failure, Dr. Love gave us some good basketball and some fun.

Farewell to him.

[jbk1234]

Yeah, no. Every documented case we know about is because Kevin had an outburst and acted inappropriately. If anyone should have been benched it was Kevin because he was disrespecting his teammates/coach/team/the game/etc.

Young players missing stuff and making mistakes? You take them aside or talk about it in the locker-room, in practice. That's what our $30M veteran who was supposed to be helping these young men learn how to be a pro should have been doing.

As for trade value, we both know that went out the window the day he signed that contract. At best, we might have been able to use his salary to absorb a bigger salary; but our options were extremely limited after trading for Mitchell.

You're acting like it was a couple of isolated incidents and not three months of Sexton chucking up shots, occasionally passing to TT in a crowded paint, all while using Love as a $30M decoy and the Cavs getting destroyed on the court. Chones and even Austin Carr were going in on Sexton well before Love finally lost it.

I'd invite you to go back and read your own contemporaneous observations. It was painfully bad and profoundly selfish basketball.

And even after the blowup, Lloyd reported that Portland offered expiring contracts for Love at the deadline, but the Cavs front office still wanted a first. The entire approach was schizophrenic. You give Love the extension, reportedly view him as a trade asset, and then allow a low IQ chucker with no court vision to burn down his trade value over the course of a half a season, and to what end?

What development actually occurred that season?

The situation was badly mishandled. You're free to disagree but I don't know a vet of Love's caliber who would've tolerated that nonsense and I can think of a few who would've reacted far worse.

Are you mixing up the Lue/Drew season with the Beilein/Bickerstaff season? Because I thought we were primarily talking about the later when we'd already brought in Darius Garland because we didn't trust Collin would ever become a PG.

That first season where Collin struggled to run the team saw very little of Kevin because he was out hurt for most of it. As for development it was certainly there for Collin, but nothing has changed in that he needs to be paired with a PG or other playmaker.

As for the Cavs, Altman executed a classic tank strategy of making sure there was nobody on the team who could orchestrate an offense properly and that certainly worked. It was not Kevin or Tristan's place to be publicly complaining about that. I get they were under the impression we were going to try to compete, but they need to look in the mirror for why that didn't happen.

Our "starting lineup" of George Hill, Rodney Hood, Cedi, Tristan and Kevin was -4.1 ... and with Collin instead of Kevin with that same group they were -0.9. So, once Love got hurt, Altman had seen enough and pivoted. Thank goodness.

So, that next season Garland wasn't fully recovered or physically ready for the NBA, but he showed improvement. Absolutely no reason not to continue to pour playing time in to our young back-court.

A lot of veterans have dealt with the frustration of being on a tanking team without causing problems. Kevin has always apologized and admitted he was wrong after each of his public outbursts - often talking about his mental issues. There's no point excusing them.

And if you want an example of a vet who behaved the right way? How about Larry Nance Jr who replied to an anonymous scout who called Collin Sexton an "a--hole" and said none of his teammates like him; with this:

"Whoever said this is a moron with zero knowledge of anything going on in Cleveland. I’d hide behind anonymity too if I was this bad at my job"

Oh, and btw, Larry was no longer on the Cavs when he decided to tweet that.

I am not confusing anything. The sample size you're talking about in the first season with Hill, Hood, and Love was very small. Hill wanted out almost immediately and Love got injured and shut down early on. Hood eventually got his trade request honored at the deadline.

The second season started with complaints about Sexton's FGAs right out of training camp. I'll never forget Beilein's quote in response that it was no big deal and there's often tension between the top two shooters or some such nonsense. It was at that moment I knew he was clueless. If the plan was to allow Sexton to do whatever he wanted in the name of *development,* then only an idiot would think a player 18 months removed from an all star appearance would be good would that, especially given how poorly the team played.

This isn't college. There's a reason teams who decide to move on from players on big contracts showcase them so they can trade them for the best value they can get. The irony of using Nance as an example of a good teammate, who requested a trade out of the Sexton centric Cavs so he could play on a competitive team, is too much. But it's telling that none of the guys who were still obligated to play with Sexton spoke up, and that the Cavs as an organization decided to shop him the same summer Nance made those comments.

If as you say, the Cavs were all-in on a rebuild when they hired Beilein, they had two choices. You either give it a couple months with a Love centric offense and let him stat pad to increase his trade value, or you move him for whatever you can get at the start of the season before the water boils over. What you don't do is refuse to trade him because you've concluded he's an *asset* who's being unfairly valued and then run the offense through an undersized shot hunter.

Love was a PF and a huge part of his game depended upon guards getting him the ball in his spots and in a timely matter. His reaction was predictable and no vet of his caliber was going to be good with what transpired, especially on year one of an extension and entering the back nine of his career.

It was dumb to believe Love would be good with uber selfish play and inexplicable that it continued as the Cavs were getting blown on a nightly basis for months on end.

Not for nothing, but force feeding young players unearned minutes who are playing selfishly isn't development. Sexton's first experience with development occurred this year in Utah where he was told he'd be coming off the bench until he'd actually do what was asked.

[JonFromVA]

You're acting like it was a couple of isolated incidents and not three months of Sexton chucking up shots, occasionally passing to TT in a crowded paint, all while using Love as a $30M decoy and the Cavs getting destroyed on the court. Chones and even Austin Carr were going in on Sexton well before Love finally lost it.

I'd invite you to go back and read your own contemporaneous observations. It was painfully bad and profoundly selfish basketball.

And even after the blowup, Lloyd reported that Portland offered expiring contracts for Love at the deadline, but the Cavs front office still wanted a first. The entire approach was schizophrenic. You give Love the extension, reportedly view him as a trade asset, and then allow a low IQ chucker with no court vision to burn down his trade value over the course of a half a season, and to what end?

What development actually occurred that season?

The situation was badly mishandled. You're free to disagree but I don't know a vet of Love's caliber who would've tolerated that nonsense and I can think of a few who would've reacted far worse.

Are you mixing up the Lue/Drew season with the Beilein/Bickerstaff season? Because I thought we were primarily talking about the later when we'd already brought in Darius Garland because we didn't trust Collin would ever become a PG.

That first season where Collin struggled to run the team saw very little of Kevin because he was out hurt for most of it. As for development it was certainly there for Collin, but nothing has changed in that he needs to be paired with a PG or other playmaker.

As for the Cavs, Altman executed a classic tank strategy of making sure there was nobody on the team who could orchestrate an offense properly and that certainly worked. It was not Kevin or Tristan's place to be publicly complaining about that. I get they were under the impression we were going to try to compete, but they need to look in the mirror for why that didn't happen.

Our "starting lineup" of George Hill, Rodney Hood, Cedi, Tristan and Kevin was -4.1 ... and with Collin instead of Kevin with that same group they were -0.9. So, once Love got hurt, Altman had seen enough and pivoted. Thank goodness.

So, that next season Garland wasn't fully recovered or physically ready for the NBA, but he showed improvement. Absolutely no reason not to continue to pour playing time in to our young back-court.

A lot of veterans have dealt with the frustration of being on a tanking team without causing problems. Kevin has always apologized and admitted he was wrong after each of his public outbursts - often talking about his mental issues. There's no point excusing them.

And if you want an example of a vet who behaved the right way? How about Larry Nance Jr who replied to an anonymous scout who called Collin Sexton an "a--hole" and said none of his teammates like him; with this:

"Whoever said this is a moron with zero knowledge of anything going on in Cleveland. I’d hide behind anonymity too if I was this bad at my job"

Oh, and btw, Larry was no longer on the Cavs when he decided to tweet that.

I am not confusing anything. The sample size you're talking about in the first season with Hill, Hood, and Love was very small. Hill wanted out almost immediately and Love got injured and shut down early on. Hood eventually got his trade request honored at the deadline.

The second season started with complaints about Sexton's FGAs right out of training camp. I'll never forget Beilein's quote in response that it was no big deal and there's often tension between the top two shooters or some such nonsense. It was at that moment I knew he was clueless. If the plan was to allow Sexton to do whatever he wanted in the name of *development,* then only an idiot would think a player 18 months removed from an all star appearance would be good would that, especially given how poorly the team played.

This isn't college. There's a reason teams who decide to move on from players on big contracts showcase them so they can trade them for the best value they can get. The irony of using Nance as an example of a good teammate, who requested a trade out of the Sexton centric Cavs so he could play on a competitive team, is too much. But it's telling that none of the guys who were still obligated to play with Sexton spoke up, and that the Cavs as an organization decided to shop him the same summer Nance made those comments.

If as you say, the Cavs were all-in on a rebuild when they hired Beilein, they had two choices. You either give it a couple months with a Love centric offense and let him stat pad to increase his trade value, or you move him for whatever you can get at the start of the season before the water boils over. What you don't do is refuse to trade him because you've concluded he's an *asset* who's being unfairly valued and then run the offense through an undersized shot hunter.

Love was a PF and a huge part of his game depended upon guards getting him the ball in his spots and in a timely matter. His reaction was predictable and no vet of his caliber was going to be good with what transpired, especially on year one of an extension and entering the back nine of his career.

It was dumb to believe Love would be good with uber selfish play and inexplicable that it continued as the Cavs were getting blown on a nightly basis for months on end.

Not for nothing, but force feeding young players unearned minutes who are playing selfishly isn't development. Sexton's first experience with development occurred this year in Utah where he was told he'd be coming off the bench until he'd actually do what was asked.

So, when was Darius Garland's first experience with "development"?

Suffice it to say, we're in just about total disagreement on this topic.

[jbk1234]

Are you mixing up the Lue/Drew season with the Beilein/Bickerstaff season? Because I thought we were primarily talking about the later when we'd already brought in Darius Garland because we didn't trust Collin would ever become a PG.

That first season where Collin struggled to run the team saw very little of Kevin because he was out hurt for most of it. As for development it was certainly there for Collin, but nothing has changed in that he needs to be paired with a PG or other playmaker.

As for the Cavs, Altman executed a classic tank strategy of making sure there was nobody on the team who could orchestrate an offense properly and that certainly worked. It was not Kevin or Tristan's place to be publicly complaining about that. I get they were under the impression we were going to try to compete, but they need to look in the mirror for why that didn't happen.

Our "starting lineup" of George Hill, Rodney Hood, Cedi, Tristan and Kevin was -4.1 ... and with Collin instead of Kevin with that same group they were -0.9. So, once Love got hurt, Altman had seen enough and pivoted. Thank goodness.

So, that next season Garland wasn't fully recovered or physically ready for the NBA, but he showed improvement. Absolutely no reason not to continue to pour playing time in to our young back-court.

A lot of veterans have dealt with the frustration of being on a tanking team without causing problems. Kevin has always apologized and admitted he was wrong after each of his public outbursts - often talking about his mental issues. There's no point excusing them.

And if you want an example of a vet who behaved the right way? How about Larry Nance Jr who replied to an anonymous scout who called Collin Sexton an "a--hole" and said none of his teammates like him; with this:

"Whoever said this is a moron with zero knowledge of anything going on in Cleveland. I’d hide behind anonymity too if I was this bad at my job"

Oh, and btw, Larry was no longer on the Cavs when he decided to tweet that.

I am not confusing anything. The sample size you're talking about in the first season with Hill, Hood, and Love was very small. Hill wanted out almost immediately and Love got injured and shut down early on. Hood eventually got his trade request honored at the deadline.

The second season started with complaints about Sexton's FGAs right out of training camp. I'll never forget Beilein's quote in response that it was no big deal and there's often tension between the top two shooters or some such nonsense. It was at that moment I knew he was clueless. If the plan was to allow Sexton to do whatever he wanted in the name of *development,* then only an idiot would think a player 18 months removed from an all star appearance would be good would that, especially given how poorly the team played.

This isn't college. There's a reason teams who decide to move on from players on big contracts showcase them so they can trade them for the best value they can get. The irony of using Nance as an example of a good teammate, who requested a trade out of the Sexton centric Cavs so he could play on a competitive team, is too much. But it's telling that none of the guys who were still obligated to play with Sexton spoke up, and that the Cavs as an organization decided to shop him the same summer Nance made those comments.

If as you say, the Cavs were all-in on a rebuild when they hired Beilein, they had two choices. You either give it a couple months with a Love centric offense and let him stat pad to increase his trade value, or you move him for whatever you can get at the start of the season before the water boils over. What you don't do is refuse to trade him because you've concluded he's an *asset* who's being unfairly valued and then run the offense through an undersized shot hunter.

Love was a PF and a huge part of his game depended upon guards getting him the ball in his spots and in a timely matter. His reaction was predictable and no vet of his caliber was going to be good with what transpired, especially on year one of an extension and entering the back nine of his career.

It was dumb to believe Love would be good with uber selfish play and inexplicable that it continued as the Cavs were getting blown on a nightly basis for months on end.

Not for nothing, but force feeding young players unearned minutes who are playing selfishly isn't development. Sexton's first experience with development occurred this year in Utah where he was told he'd be coming off the bench until he'd actually do what was asked.

So, when was Darius Garland's first experience with "development"?

Suffice it to say, we're in just about total disagreement on this topic.

Garland averaged less than 12 FGA per game his rookie year (and 3.9 assists).

Sexton averaged 16.7 FGA and 3 assists the same season.

TT's FGAs ballooned to 9.9 FGA from Sexton driving to the rim without a plan B. Highest of TT's career.

Kevin Love averaged 13 FGA and 3.2 assists that year.

I'll spare you the usage rates, but Garland was not the problem, and he certainly wasn't the problem in the way that Sexton was as far as eating possessions.

[KuruptedCav]

Just a reminder, there are worse things than buying out a max player and watching him go to a conference rival. Could have traded him for Ben Simmons. #PrayForBrooklyn


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