Cavs trade for Mitchell.

[JujitsuFlip]

I don't agree with "Cavs paid a price of assets like he was on that level or better." They paid the price for a 26 year old three-time all-star with three (possibly four) years left on their contract during their prime at the expense of future equity. The list of 26 and younger multiple time all-star bordering all-nba players with three or more years left on their contract traded in the last ten years: Donovan Mitchell and Ben Simmons. Basically, this is wildly unprecedented.

I just don't think we can judge a trade like this until we actually see it in action. As you said, it depends on team success and currently the Cavs haven't lost a game with Mitchell on the roster.

Nor have they won any championships, made the Finals, heck even made the playoffs with him on the roster.

He said in his presser he thought he would be in NYC but long as the Cavs win, then no problem. Win as in a ring? Win as in what, duplicating the early playoff exits he had with the Jazz? It's such a vague statement, Cavs have a 3 year window, they better sign a SF next summer. They could potentially have top 5 picks in 2027, 2028, and 2029 that they don't even own the rights to

It is easy to admit that these three years are both very short and very long. A few missteps and this window with Mitchell are over. We have three chances at the playoffs before Mitchell evaluates the situation. I assume the Cavs have to at least make a Conference Finals appearance in either of 2023-24 or 2024-25 for Mitchell to consider us as "winning". That doesn't seem farfetched in my eyes, but teams get unlucky with injuries or just numbers swinging the wrong way all the time.

You already know I like this move for the up-swing potential so I won't harp on it too long. It raises our ceiling for the next three years by a wide margin where we have the potential to be a top four team. Its hard to get there in the NBA, especially with a young roster. In Cavaliers' history, we've been in the mix of the top four teams with three different iterations in our 52 year history. The fact that this four-man core can be one of those teams is special.

Will this iteration be one of those teams? Hopefully, as that would mark this experiment as a success (in my eyes).

Of course it's the same time i cut the cord that they make this splashy trade lol

But you're right, a fun 3 year window ahead. Hopefully the core 4 gel on and off the court. They're all young enough that if they re-up, even if it doesn't result in a title/finals appearance the trade won't look lopsided.

[KuruptedCav]

The bold is not a good comparison lol

The question isn't should asset consolidation happen or not... The question is first off the timing and second of all the piece that was consolidated for.

I'd much rather have PG13, Kawhi, KD, AD, Harden, Ben, or 2017 Irving than Mitchell... Koby gave up so much for an unproven guy who doesn't fit. Cavs coulda had a lesser version of Mitchell in Sexton for ~17.5 million AAV and still had all of their 1st round draft picks to use in trades to upgrade the roster.

RoCo and Powell were acquired for a future 2nd rounder for crying out loud. Those 2 fit perfectly with Allen, Mobley, and Garland plus are much cheaper salary wise and assets used to obtain wise.

Well, for one thing you left out that the Clippers included Keon Johnson (the 21st pick in the 2021 draft) in the trade and wanted cap relief. It's quite possible we did talk to them but couldn't offer a better deal and/or didn't want to tie up our cap space.

As for the piece we consolidated for, Mitchell has a career playoff average of 28/4.9/4.7 for $30.3M and has never missed the playoffs in his career. RoCo averages 9.7/5.7/1.2 for $12.3M and Powell averages 17/2.2/2.0 for $16.7M.

So when it counts the most Mitchell produces as much offense as those two older players for nearly the same price?

That's a pretty big deal and worth a premium *if* we can deal with the defensive difference.

But we can't re-litigate the past or even control who's going to hit the market. If a "PG13", "KD', or "AD" level player was to hit the open market are we better having a premium asset like Mitchell or a bunch of decent players and risky future picks?

There's a fair case we're better with Mitchell, so, it's wrong to say we've wasted the assets we gave up for him. We've just transformed them. For better or worse is tbd, but at least we have the player under team control for 3 seasons and when he can consider jumping ship, he will be 29 years old (Powell's current age) as Evan is just starting his non-rookie contract.

Mitchell throughout the bulk of his prime years would be pretty sweet. He will likely start to drop-off after 30, but stars are often still worth a max deal even with lesser production - at least the ones that can shoot and still create offense. CJ McCollum seems like a floor for Mitchell and the Pelicans seemed happy to trade for him and pay him $69M for 2 additional years even after it got to the point Portland decided they had to break up their team.

After the 21st pick was on the roster for half the season, Cavs gave Agbaji zero games. A lot of people could've topped the package they accepted.

There's a lot more to basketball than scoring, there's a whole other end of the floor.

As Krupted showed, it is much better to have lots of picks and young guys to acquire a star.

The Blazers also had two 6'3" guys who were suspect defenders and they never won anything. Cavs are locked in to an even smaller back court duo with similar defensive limitations...

You miss the point. The Cavs settled for Larry Hughes (who was not top of their list) because they wouldn’t pay the Suns’ price for Joe Johnson and were afraid of missing out on Michael Redd (who was told in his visit that they were going with Larry) and Joe Johnson (who was a restricted free agent).

They did it again when Ferry refused to include JJ Hickson in an Amare Stoudemire trade and instead swapped a FRP for Antwan Jamison who helped facilitate a second round exit and James departure to Miami.

Settling for “lesser versions” of players because they’ll take your money or not cost picks is a recipe for the treadmill. Boston doesn’t lament trading the #5 pick for a 32 year old Ray Allen or their efficient rising star center and two FRPs for a 31yr old Kevin Garnett. When you have the chance to add top-25 talent, you take it.


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[JujitsuFlip]

Well, for one thing you left out that the Clippers included Keon Johnson (the 21st pick in the 2021 draft) in the trade and wanted cap relief. It's quite possible we did talk to them but couldn't offer a better deal and/or didn't want to tie up our cap space.

As for the piece we consolidated for, Mitchell has a career playoff average of 28/4.9/4.7 for $30.3M and has never missed the playoffs in his career. RoCo averages 9.7/5.7/1.2 for $12.3M and Powell averages 17/2.2/2.0 for $16.7M.

So when it counts the most Mitchell produces as much offense as those two older players for nearly the same price?

That's a pretty big deal and worth a premium *if* we can deal with the defensive difference.

But we can't re-litigate the past or even control who's going to hit the market. If a "PG13", "KD', or "AD" level player was to hit the open market are we better having a premium asset like Mitchell or a bunch of decent players and risky future picks?

There's a fair case we're better with Mitchell, so, it's wrong to say we've wasted the assets we gave up for him. We've just transformed them. For better or worse is tbd, but at least we have the player under team control for 3 seasons and when he can consider jumping ship, he will be 29 years old (Powell's current age) as Evan is just starting his non-rookie contract.

Mitchell throughout the bulk of his prime years would be pretty sweet. He will likely start to drop-off after 30, but stars are often still worth a max deal even with lesser production - at least the ones that can shoot and still create offense. CJ McCollum seems like a floor for Mitchell and the Pelicans seemed happy to trade for him and pay him $69M for 2 additional years even after it got to the point Portland decided they had to break up their team.

After the 21st pick was on the roster for half the season, Cavs gave Agbaji zero games. A lot of people could've topped the package they accepted.

There's a lot more to basketball than scoring, there's a whole other end of the floor.

As Krupted showed, it is much better to have lots of picks and young guys to acquire a star.

The Blazers also had two 6'3" guys who were suspect defenders and they never won anything. Cavs are locked in to an even smaller back court duo with similar defensive limitations...

You miss the point. The Cavs settled for Larry Hughes (who was not top of their list) because they wouldn’t pay the Suns’ price for Joe Johnson and were afraid of missing out on Michael Redd (who was told in his visit that they were going with Larry) and Joe Johnson (who was a restricted free agent).

They did it again when Ferry refused to include JJ Hickson in an Amare Stoudemire trade and instead swapped a FRP for Antwan Jamison who helped facilitate a second round exit and James departure to Miami.

Settling for “lesser versions” of players because they’ll take your money or not cost picks is a recipe for the treadmill. Boston doesn’t lament trading the #5 pick for a 32 year old Ray Allen or their efficient rising star center and two FRPs for a 31yr old Kevin Garnett. When you have the chance to add top-25 talent, you take it.


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These feel like worse comparisons than your BMW/Ford comp.

Cavs were never even near the treadmill, they were back in the locker room changing outta their 9-5 clothes and warming up.

The guy they just depleted all their future assets for is a professional leader of a treadmill team. His teams exited early year in and year out, hence why the "stars" and coaching staff are all gone now.

Cavs weren't a championship contender prior to the trade, obviously. Neither are they after the trade. 2 small guards hasn't worked to achieve a title since the bad boy Pistons, that was 30+ years ago.

Shoot, add in a team hasn't won with 2 traditional bigs in over a decade since Kobe's Lakers. Where this team is strong, they're really strong. However, where they're weak, it is substantial weakness.

[JonFromVA]

Cavs could have finished top-4 in the East last year with better health - I suspect our sights are set higher with our team of 4 "all-stars".

Also technically Raptors won a championship with Lowry and VanVleet. ... and our unwillingness to trade JJ Hickson never held back a trade. Sarver walked away from trading Amare to spare himself negative press. Our chicken scraps weren't worth the PR hit.

[JujitsuFlip]

Cavs could have finished top-4 in the East last year with better health - I suspect our sights are set higher with our team of 4 "all-stars".

Also technically Raptors won a championship with Lowry and VanVleet. ... and our unwillingness to trade JJ Hickson never held back a trade. Sarver walked away from trading Amare to spare himself negative press. Our chicken scraps weren't worth the PR hit.

Nope, 6'6" All-Defense Green started every playoff game in the playoffs next to 6'0" Lowry. Let's not forget, the other wing next to those two was 6'7" two time DPOY Kawhi.

The Cavs trying to run out two 6'1" guys who are turnstiles on defense then pair them with 6'4" Okoro, oof, good luck. Better outscore people because Mobley, Allen, Lopez, and probably Brobley have a humongous task trying to cover that up on the back end.

[KuruptedCav]

After the 21st pick was on the roster for half the season, Cavs gave Agbaji zero games. A lot of people could've topped the package they accepted.

There's a lot more to basketball than scoring, there's a whole other end of the floor.

As Krupted showed, it is much better to have lots of picks and young guys to acquire a star.

The Blazers also had two 6'3" guys who were suspect defenders and they never won anything. Cavs are locked in to an even smaller back court duo with similar defensive limitations...

You miss the point. The Cavs settled for Larry Hughes (who was not top of their list) because they wouldn’t pay the Suns’ price for Joe Johnson and were afraid of missing out on Michael Redd (who was told in his visit that they were going with Larry) and Joe Johnson (who was a restricted free agent).

They did it again when Ferry refused to include JJ Hickson in an Amare Stoudemire trade and instead swapped a FRP for Antwan Jamison who helped facilitate a second round exit and James departure to Miami.

Settling for “lesser versions” of players because they’ll take your money or not cost picks is a recipe for the treadmill. Boston doesn’t lament trading the #5 pick for a 32 year old Ray Allen or their efficient rising star center and two FRPs for a 31yr old Kevin Garnett. When you have the chance to add top-25 talent, you take it.


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These feel like worse comparisons than your BMW/Ford comp.

Cavs were never even near the treadmill, they were back in the locker room changing outta their 9-5 clothes and warming up.

The guy they just depleted all their future assets for is a professional leader of a treadmill team. His teams exited early year in and year out, hence why the "stars" and coaching staff are all gone now.

Cavs weren't a championship contender prior to the trade, obviously. Neither are they after the trade. 2 small guards hasn't worked to achieve a title since the bad boy Pistons, that was 30+ years ago.

Shoot, add in a team hasn't won with 2 traditional bigs in over a decade since Kobe's Lakers. Where this team is strong, they're really strong. However, where they're weak, it is substantial weakness.

Was Lebron a Treadmill commander prior to joining the Heat?
How about Shaq with the Magic?

Paul George has won what?
James Harden has won what?
Ben Simmons has won what?

The only acceptable scenario you’ve posited is one that doesn’t exist in reality. We do know what happens when you refuse to play the chips you’ve brought.

The 76ers have won what? They finished 4th in the East last year, their young core imploded and they are praying to God that 33 year old James Harden can save it. But at least they have their picks.

Is Milwaukee lamenting the Jrue Holiday trade?
Are the Lakers worried about the assets they shipped for Anthony Davis?

Things don’t always go perfect, but they also don’t always go immediately, horribly and irreversibly wrong either.

If it works, great. If not, it probably looks like the James Harden situation where Brooklyn gave up Jarrett Allen, 3FRPs, and Four Pick Swaps then flipped him a year later for 2FRPs, Ben Simmons and Seth Curry. Effectively a netting trade of Jarrett Allen, 1 FRP and 4 pick swaps for Ben Simmons and Seth Curry. I don’t think that would have been a bad trade either.

This Cavs front office has done well and earned some trust. They drafted Garland a year after going in on Sexton. Previous regimes would have taken Jarrett Culver because he “fit” better. They came out of an abysmal 2020 draft with a useful rotational player. They brought in Jarrett Allen, didn’t bungle the Garland extension, and didn’t screw up the 2021 draft by getting fancy.

Maybe the sky isn’t falling, let it ride for 6 months bro.


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[JonFromVA]

Cavs could have finished top-4 in the East last year with better health - I suspect our sights are set higher with our team of 4 "all-stars".

Also technically Raptors won a championship with Lowry and VanVleet. ... and our unwillingness to trade JJ Hickson never held back a trade. Sarver walked away from trading Amare to spare himself negative press. Our chicken scraps weren't worth the PR hit.

Nope, 6'6" All-Defense Green started every playoff game in the playoffs next to 6'0" Lowry. Let's not forget, the other wing next to those two was 6'7" two time DPOY Kawhi.

The Cavs trying to run out two 6'1" guys who are turnstiles on defense then pair them with 6'4" Okoro, oof, good luck. Better outscore people because Mobley, Allen, Lopez, and probably Brobley have a humongous task trying to cover that up on the back end.

Thanks for pointing out Danny Green, but VanVleet and Lowry were already playing together and closing games in the Raptor's championship seasons. As a 2-man pair, they were the 2nd best in point differential and crucial to the championship. The next season they were both starters and winning at a 60-game pace .vs. 58-wins with Leonard.

I imagine we'll be pretty happy with our team if our tiny back-court can win 60 games; but hey if the only thing between us and a championship is starting a journeyman 3&d guy the Cavs initially drafted in the 2nd round over one of Mitchell or Garland, I imagine we can work something out.

I'm not going to say we can't win with just offense because the Cavs could have done just that if our finals opponent wasn't the KD enhanced Warriors, but clearly the goal is to not let our back-court be turnstiles on defense and not pair them with a 6'4" SG.

The good news is Garland is not a turnstile on defense, Mitchell can be quite good if he wants to be, Okoro isn't 6'4" (official measurement is 6'5"), and we do have Mobley and Allen so they can play aggressively on defense without worrying too much about someone getting past them - and if for some reason all of that doesn't work - outscoring the other team is the only goal.

[JujitsuFlip]

Cavs could have finished top-4 in the East last year with better health - I suspect our sights are set higher with our team of 4 "all-stars".

Also technically Raptors won a championship with Lowry and VanVleet. ... and our unwillingness to trade JJ Hickson never held back a trade. Sarver walked away from trading Amare to spare himself negative press. Our chicken scraps weren't worth the PR hit.

Nope, 6'6" All-Defense Green started every playoff game in the playoffs next to 6'0" Lowry. Let's not forget, the other wing next to those two was 6'7" two time DPOY Kawhi.

The Cavs trying to run out two 6'1" guys who are turnstiles on defense then pair them with 6'4" Okoro, oof, good luck. Better outscore people because Mobley, Allen, Lopez, and probably Brobley have a humongous task trying to cover that up on the back end.

Thanks for pointing out Danny Green, but VanVleet and Lowry were already playing together and closing games in the Raptor's championship seasons. As a 2-man pair, they were the 2nd best in point differential and crucial to the championship. The next season they were both starters and winning at a 60-game pace .vs. 58-wins with Leonard.

I imagine we'll be pretty happy with our team if our tiny back-court can win 60 games; but hey if the only thing between us and a championship is starting a journeyman 3&d guy the Cavs initially drafted in the 2nd round over one of Mitchell or Garland, I imagine we can work something out.

I'm not going to say we can't win with just offense because the Cavs could have done just that if our finals opponent wasn't the KD enhanced Warriors, but clearly the goal is to not let our back-court be turnstiles on defense and not pair them with a 6'4" SG.

The good news is Garland is not a turnstile on defense, Mitchell can be quite good if he wants to be, Okoro isn't 6'4" (official measurement is 6'5"), and we do have Mobley and Allen so they can play aggressively on defense without worrying too much about someone getting past them - and if for some reason all of that doesn't work - outscoring the other team is the only goal.

The next season, they didn't even make the ECF... Hence, my point.

60 wins if the Cavs exit in the 1st or 2nd round, will bring enjoyment? I sure hope not.

They're negative defenders, frame it how ya want lol

[toooskies]

Cavs could have finished top-4 in the East last year with better health - I suspect our sights are set higher with our team of 4 "all-stars".

Also technically Raptors won a championship with Lowry and VanVleet. ... and our unwillingness to trade JJ Hickson never held back a trade. Sarver walked away from trading Amare to spare himself negative press. Our chicken scraps weren't worth the PR hit.

Nope, 6'6" All-Defense Green started every playoff game in the playoffs next to 6'0" Lowry. Let's not forget, the other wing next to those two was 6'7" two time DPOY Kawhi.

The Cavs trying to run out two 6'1" guys who are turnstiles on defense then pair them with 6'4" Okoro, oof, good luck. Better outscore people because Mobley, Allen, Lopez, and probably Brobley have a humongous task trying to cover that up on the back end.

I disagree that Garland is a turnstile. He's been steadily improving and last year you could argue he's about average for his position. His rebounding hurts his box score stats, but his on/off tied Allen for the highest of our 1000+ minute players in RAPTOR on/off tracking. Mitchell has the potential not to be a turnstile-- it's an effort issue and a situation issue with Utah the last few years. JBB figured out how to get everyone motivated to play defense last year, let's see if his strengths as a coach can get Mitchell engaged on that end as well.

Against lineups where Mitchell can guard the other team's 3, I'm fine with Okoro handling a tough assignment at the point of attack. If Philly is playing PJ Tucker at the 3, for instance, we put Okoro on Harden or Maxey. (Or do we keep LeVert to pressure Harden on D?) I'm not sure who I want on Tatum-- Okoro? Wade? Mobley (and Wade or Love at the 4)? (Don't want LeVert running offense on Boston's D.) Probably Wade on Middleton or KD. Okoro on Butler, or maybe Stevens. Atlanta? Okoro or LeVert. Toronto? Wade. Chicago? Okoro.

And that's where I land-- unless we're trying to out-score everybody with LeVert (with Mobley and Allen providing a decent floor on D), I'd rather platoon the 3 to whatever we need on a given night, especially in the playoffs. (If LeVert gets the start for political/chemistry reasons and then a quick hook to put a custom defender out there, then have LeVert come back in with the regular 2nd unit, that's a decent compromise to me.)

I'd probably start Wade at the 3 if he weren't going to get pulled into minutes at the 4 if any of Allen/Mobley/Love get hurt.

[JujitsuFlip]

You miss the point. The Cavs settled for Larry Hughes (who was not top of their list) because they wouldn’t pay the Suns’ price for Joe Johnson and were afraid of missing out on Michael Redd (who was told in his visit that they were going with Larry) and Joe Johnson (who was a restricted free agent).

They did it again when Ferry refused to include JJ Hickson in an Amare Stoudemire trade and instead swapped a FRP for Antwan Jamison who helped facilitate a second round exit and James departure to Miami.

Settling for “lesser versions” of players because they’ll take your money or not cost picks is a recipe for the treadmill. Boston doesn’t lament trading the #5 pick for a 32 year old Ray Allen or their efficient rising star center and two FRPs for a 31yr old Kevin Garnett. When you have the chance to add top-25 talent, you take it.


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These feel like worse comparisons than your BMW/Ford comp.

Cavs were never even near the treadmill, they were back in the locker room changing outta their 9-5 clothes and warming up.

The guy they just depleted all their future assets for is a professional leader of a treadmill team. His teams exited early year in and year out, hence why the "stars" and coaching staff are all gone now.

Cavs weren't a championship contender prior to the trade, obviously. Neither are they after the trade. 2 small guards hasn't worked to achieve a title since the bad boy Pistons, that was 30+ years ago.

Shoot, add in a team hasn't won with 2 traditional bigs in over a decade since Kobe's Lakers. Where this team is strong, they're really strong. However, where they're weak, it is substantial weakness.

Was Lebron a Treadmill commander prior to joining the Heat?
How about Shaq with the Magic?

Paul George has won what?
James Harden has won what?
Ben Simmons has won what?

The only acceptable scenario you’ve posited is one that doesn’t exist in reality. We do know what happens when you refuse to play the chips you’ve brought.

The 76ers have won what? They finished 4th in the East last year, their young core imploded and they are praying to God that 33 year old James Harden can save it. But at least they have their picks.

Is Milwaukee lamenting the Jrue Holiday trade?
Are the Lakers worried about the assets they shipped for Anthony Davis?

Things don’t always go perfect, but they also don’t always go immediately, horribly and irreversibly wrong either.

If it works, great. If not, it probably looks like the James Harden situation where Brooklyn gave up Jarrett Allen, 3FRPs, and Four Pick Swaps then flipped him a year later for 2FRPs, Ben Simmons and Seth Curry. Effectively a netting trade of Jarrett Allen, 1 FRP and 4 pick swaps for Ben Simmons and Seth Curry. I don’t think that would have been a bad trade either.

This Cavs front office has done well and earned some trust. They drafted Garland a year after going in on Sexton. Previous regimes would have taken Jarrett Culver because he “fit” better. They came out of an abysmal 2020 draft with a useful rotational player. They brought in Jarrett Allen, didn’t bungle the Garland extension, and didn’t screw up the 2021 draft by getting fancy.

Maybe the sky isn’t falling, let it ride for 6 months bro.

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So to defend Mitchell regularly losing in the 1st round and never making it outta the 2nd round, you pick 2 guys who made it to the the Finals (2007 Cavs and 1995 Magic)? I do not understand the comparisons you pick lol

Bucks and Lakers won a title after their trade(s) again with these comparisons lol you think the Cavs are gonna win a title with this core?!

I never said the sky was falling, Cavs just gave up way too much, Ainge always gets over on Altman, par for the course at this point.

[JujitsuFlip]

Cavs could have finished top-4 in the East last year with better health - I suspect our sights are set higher with our team of 4 "all-stars".

Also technically Raptors won a championship with Lowry and VanVleet. ... and our unwillingness to trade JJ Hickson never held back a trade. Sarver walked away from trading Amare to spare himself negative press. Our chicken scraps weren't worth the PR hit.

Nope, 6'6" All-Defense Green started every playoff game in the playoffs next to 6'0" Lowry. Let's not forget, the other wing next to those two was 6'7" two time DPOY Kawhi.

The Cavs trying to run out two 6'1" guys who are turnstiles on defense then pair them with 6'4" Okoro, oof, good luck. Better outscore people because Mobley, Allen, Lopez, and probably Brobley have a humongous task trying to cover that up on the back end.

I disagree that Garland is a turnstile. He's been steadily improving and last year you could argue he's about average for his position. His rebounding hurts his box score stats, but his on/off tied Allen for the highest of our 1000+ minute players in RAPTOR on/off tracking. Mitchell has the potential not to be a turnstile-- it's an effort issue and a situation issue with Utah the last few years. JBB figured out how to get everyone motivated to play defense last year, let's see if his strengths as a coach can get Mitchell engaged on that end as well.

Against lineups where Mitchell can guard the other team's 3, I'm fine with Okoro handling a tough assignment at the point of attack. If Philly is playing PJ Tucker at the 3, for instance, we put Okoro on Harden or Maxey. (Or do we keep LeVert to pressure Harden on D?) I'm not sure who I want on Tatum-- Okoro? Wade? Mobley (and Wade or Love at the 4)? (Don't want LeVert running offense on Boston's D.) Probably Wade on Middleton or KD. Okoro on Butler, or maybe Stevens. Atlanta? Okoro or LeVert. Toronto? Wade. Chicago? Okoro.

And that's where I land-- unless we're trying to out-score everybody with LeVert (with Mobley and Allen providing a decent floor on D), I'd rather platoon the 3 to whatever we need on a given night, especially in the playoffs. (If LeVert gets the start for political/chemistry reasons and then a quick hook to put a custom defender out there, then have LeVert come back in with the regular 2nd unit, that's a decent compromise to me.)

I'd probably start Wade at the 3 if he weren't going to get pulled into minutes at the 4 if any of Allen/Mobley/Love get hurt.

Like I said to Jon, we can paint it however we want, they're negative defenders.

I'd start Wade too but assuming it's LeVert, that's gonna put a lot of pressure on the bigs to avoid foul trouble, which they were great at last season but may prove more difficult going forward.

[ijspeelman]

Like I said to Jon, we can paint it however we want, they're negative defenders.

I'd start Wade too but assuming it's LeVert, that's gonna put a lot of pressure on the bigs to avoid foul trouble, which they were great at last season but may prove more difficult going forward.

Starting LeVert is ultimately the wrong choice and I hope to never see him start while Garland and Mitchell are available. He is redundant on offense and there are better options on defense. I'd be a little worried about our coaching staff if he comes out the gate starting.

[toooskies]

These feel like worse comparisons than your BMW/Ford comp.

Cavs were never even near the treadmill, they were back in the locker room changing outta their 9-5 clothes and warming up.

The guy they just depleted all their future assets for is a professional leader of a treadmill team. His teams exited early year in and year out, hence why the "stars" and coaching staff are all gone now.

Cavs weren't a championship contender prior to the trade, obviously. Neither are they after the trade. 2 small guards hasn't worked to achieve a title since the bad boy Pistons, that was 30+ years ago.

Shoot, add in a team hasn't won with 2 traditional bigs in over a decade since Kobe's Lakers. Where this team is strong, they're really strong. However, where they're weak, it is substantial weakness.

Was Lebron a Treadmill commander prior to joining the Heat?
How about Shaq with the Magic?

Paul George has won what?
James Harden has won what?
Ben Simmons has won what?

The only acceptable scenario you’ve posited is one that doesn’t exist in reality. We do know what happens when you refuse to play the chips you’ve brought.

The 76ers have won what? They finished 4th in the East last year, their young core imploded and they are praying to God that 33 year old James Harden can save it. But at least they have their picks.

Is Milwaukee lamenting the Jrue Holiday trade?
Are the Lakers worried about the assets they shipped for Anthony Davis?

Things don’t always go perfect, but they also don’t always go immediately, horribly and irreversibly wrong either.

If it works, great. If not, it probably looks like the James Harden situation where Brooklyn gave up Jarrett Allen, 3FRPs, and Four Pick Swaps then flipped him a year later for 2FRPs, Ben Simmons and Seth Curry. Effectively a netting trade of Jarrett Allen, 1 FRP and 4 pick swaps for Ben Simmons and Seth Curry. I don’t think that would have been a bad trade either.

This Cavs front office has done well and earned some trust. They drafted Garland a year after going in on Sexton. Previous regimes would have taken Jarrett Culver because he “fit” better. They came out of an abysmal 2020 draft with a useful rotational player. They brought in Jarrett Allen, didn’t bungle the Garland extension, and didn’t screw up the 2021 draft by getting fancy.

Maybe the sky isn’t falling, let it ride for 6 months bro.

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So to defend Mitchell regularly losing in the 1st round and never making it outta the 2nd round, you pick 2 guys who made it to the the Finals (2007 Cavs and 1995 Magic)? I do not understand the comparisons you pick lol

Bucks and Lakers won a title after their trade(s) again with these comparisons lol you think the Cavs are gonna win a title with this core?!

I never said the sky was falling, Cavs just gave up way too much, Ainge always gets over on Altman, par for the course at this point.

Who has been the second best offensive player in Utah while Mitchell was there? Bogdanovic? Conley? He had shooters around him but he was driving that offense himself.

Donovan Mitchell's playoff record thus far: 17-22. Michael Jordan's playoff record through his age 25 season: 14-23. I'm not saying Mitchell is comparable to Jordan. I'm saying it's far too early to claim he's not going to win in the playoffs.

Don't like the Jordan comparison? Go look at Damian Lillard, who's had a very similar career. Made it out of the 2nd round once. Talked about as a bigger star than Mitchell, although Mitchell's further along than Lillard was at age 26. But as comparable as Dame and Mitchell might be (and foreboding for Mitchell), Garland is way better than McCollum and Mobley/Allen are way better defenders than anyone Portland has had inside while Dame has been with the Blazers-- and that's the version of them now, not what they could be in the next few years.

[JonFromVA]

Like I said to Jon, we can paint it however we want, they're negative defenders.

I'd start Wade too but assuming it's LeVert, that's gonna put a lot of pressure on the bigs to avoid foul trouble, which they were great at last season but may prove more difficult going forward.

Starting LeVert is ultimately the wrong choice and I hope to never see him start while Garland and Mitchell are available. He is redundant on offense and there are better options on defense. I'd be a little worried about our coaching staff if he comes out the gate starting.

Redundancy is a good thing as long as players aren't stepping on each other's toe. As for his defense, shooting and fit?

It's all to be seen as with the rest.

We have some data from last season in favor of Okoro and Wade, but obviously none with Mitchell, so feel free to put your stake in the sand but IMO there's no clearcut best option and each candidate brings something different.

Even if we all agree what we want most is someone who can defend the best perimeter player on the other team and knock down enough 3's to keep his man honest - that player doesn't currently exist on the team.

LeVert does have an experience advantage and he has started more games and is paid more than everyone short of an unexpected move like switching Evan to SF and playing Kevin at starting PF. Like it or not, that sort of thing does matter and even if we don't want to keep him long-term, boosting his trade value is critical to getting something for him.

[JonFromVA]

Nope, 6'6" All-Defense Green started every playoff game in the playoffs next to 6'0" Lowry. Let's not forget, the other wing next to those two was 6'7" two time DPOY Kawhi.

The Cavs trying to run out two 6'1" guys who are turnstiles on defense then pair them with 6'4" Okoro, oof, good luck. Better outscore people because Mobley, Allen, Lopez, and probably Brobley have a humongous task trying to cover that up on the back end.

I disagree that Garland is a turnstile. He's been steadily improving and last year you could argue he's about average for his position. His rebounding hurts his box score stats, but his on/off tied Allen for the highest of our 1000+ minute players in RAPTOR on/off tracking. Mitchell has the potential not to be a turnstile-- it's an effort issue and a situation issue with Utah the last few years. JBB figured out how to get everyone motivated to play defense last year, let's see if his strengths as a coach can get Mitchell engaged on that end as well.

Against lineups where Mitchell can guard the other team's 3, I'm fine with Okoro handling a tough assignment at the point of attack. If Philly is playing PJ Tucker at the 3, for instance, we put Okoro on Harden or Maxey. (Or do we keep LeVert to pressure Harden on D?) I'm not sure who I want on Tatum-- Okoro? Wade? Mobley (and Wade or Love at the 4)? (Don't want LeVert running offense on Boston's D.) Probably Wade on Middleton or KD. Okoro on Butler, or maybe Stevens. Atlanta? Okoro or LeVert. Toronto? Wade. Chicago? Okoro.

And that's where I land-- unless we're trying to out-score everybody with LeVert (with Mobley and Allen providing a decent floor on D), I'd rather platoon the 3 to whatever we need on a given night, especially in the playoffs. (If LeVert gets the start for political/chemistry reasons and then a quick hook to put a custom defender out there, then have LeVert come back in with the regular 2nd unit, that's a decent compromise to me.)

I'd probably start Wade at the 3 if he weren't going to get pulled into minutes at the 4 if any of Allen/Mobley/Love get hurt.

Like I said to Jon, we can paint it however we want, they're negative defenders.

I'd start Wade too but assuming it's LeVert, that's gonna put a lot of pressure on the bigs to avoid foul trouble, which they were great at last season but may prove more difficult going forward.

The Cavs defense was 3.2 pp100 better with Garland on the floor, so, I'm not ready to grant that point ... but Altman/Gansey's job isn't to look at what is, but at what can be somewhere down the line as Evan Mobley is becoming the player we all hope he can become.

Our choice of SF now is likely irrelevant when taking a big picture view like that, and if Garland and Mitchell can become solid defenders within our team concept over that time span - your current worries will become moot.

[ijspeelman]

Like I said to Jon, we can paint it however we want, they're negative defenders.

I'd start Wade too but assuming it's LeVert, that's gonna put a lot of pressure on the bigs to avoid foul trouble, which they were great at last season but may prove more difficult going forward.

Starting LeVert is ultimately the wrong choice and I hope to never see him start while Garland and Mitchell are available. He is redundant on offense and there are better options on defense. I'd be a little worried about our coaching staff if he comes out the gate starting.

Redundancy is a good thing as long as players aren't stepping on each other's toe. As for his defense, shooting and fit?

It's all to be seen as with the rest.

We have some data from last season in favor of Okoro and Wade, but obviously none with Mitchell, so feel free to put your stake in the sand but IMO there's no clearcut best option and each candidate brings something different.

Even if we all agree what we want most is someone who can defend the best perimeter player on the other team and knock down enough 3's to keep his man honest - that player doesn't currently exist on the team.

LeVert does have an experience advantage and he has started more games and is paid more than everyone short of an unexpected move like switching Evan to SF and playing Kevin at starting PF. Like it or not, that sort of thing does matter and even if we don't want to keep him long-term, boosting his trade value is critical to getting something for him.

I want to make it clear that this is not supposed to be me railing on LeVert. I don't see him as a good off-ball threat and there are now two players in the starting line-up that should hold the ball more than he does. It seems he would be much better coming off the bench with Neto and being the playmaker/secondary playmaker when Garland/Mitchell sit.

I feel pretty confident about this one, personally. I still see LeVert still getting his fair share of minutes if Garland and Mitchell stagger minutes and LeVert is always out there when one is out. That would leave him with anywhere from 25 to 30 minutes played.

[JonFromVA]

These feel like worse comparisons than your BMW/Ford comp.

Cavs were never even near the treadmill, they were back in the locker room changing outta their 9-5 clothes and warming up.

The guy they just depleted all their future assets for is a professional leader of a treadmill team. His teams exited early year in and year out, hence why the "stars" and coaching staff are all gone now.

Cavs weren't a championship contender prior to the trade, obviously. Neither are they after the trade. 2 small guards hasn't worked to achieve a title since the bad boy Pistons, that was 30+ years ago.

Shoot, add in a team hasn't won with 2 traditional bigs in over a decade since Kobe's Lakers. Where this team is strong, they're really strong. However, where they're weak, it is substantial weakness.

Was Lebron a Treadmill commander prior to joining the Heat?
How about Shaq with the Magic?

Paul George has won what?
James Harden has won what?
Ben Simmons has won what?

The only acceptable scenario you’ve posited is one that doesn’t exist in reality. We do know what happens when you refuse to play the chips you’ve brought.

The 76ers have won what? They finished 4th in the East last year, their young core imploded and they are praying to God that 33 year old James Harden can save it. But at least they have their picks.

Is Milwaukee lamenting the Jrue Holiday trade?
Are the Lakers worried about the assets they shipped for Anthony Davis?

Things don’t always go perfect, but they also don’t always go immediately, horribly and irreversibly wrong either.

If it works, great. If not, it probably looks like the James Harden situation where Brooklyn gave up Jarrett Allen, 3FRPs, and Four Pick Swaps then flipped him a year later for 2FRPs, Ben Simmons and Seth Curry. Effectively a netting trade of Jarrett Allen, 1 FRP and 4 pick swaps for Ben Simmons and Seth Curry. I don’t think that would have been a bad trade either.

This Cavs front office has done well and earned some trust. They drafted Garland a year after going in on Sexton. Previous regimes would have taken Jarrett Culver because he “fit” better. They came out of an abysmal 2020 draft with a useful rotational player. They brought in Jarrett Allen, didn’t bungle the Garland extension, and didn’t screw up the 2021 draft by getting fancy.

Maybe the sky isn’t falling, let it ride for 6 months bro.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

So to defend Mitchell regularly losing in the 1st round and never making it outta the 2nd round, you pick 2 guys who made it to the the Finals (2007 Cavs and 1995 Magic)? I do not understand the comparisons you pick lol

Bucks and Lakers won a title after their trade(s) again with these comparisons lol you think the Cavs are gonna win a title with this core?!

I never said the sky was falling, Cavs just gave up way too much, Ainge always gets over on Altman, par for the course at this point.

I thought everyone agreed that Altman won the Irving trade?

Boston is pretty lucky they survived that trade, clearly it took it's toll on both Ainge and Stevens, and as it turned out their best answer was to stop trying to break up Tatum, Brown, and Smart like everyone was telling them they had to do. To me, it's just another example of why you don't give up on young talented players even when they seem to have unworkable limitations and redundancies.

[JonFromVA]

Starting LeVert is ultimately the wrong choice and I hope to never see him start while Garland and Mitchell are available. He is redundant on offense and there are better options on defense. I'd be a little worried about our coaching staff if he comes out the gate starting.

Redundancy is a good thing as long as players aren't stepping on each other's toe. As for his defense, shooting and fit?

It's all to be seen as with the rest.

We have some data from last season in favor of Okoro and Wade, but obviously none with Mitchell, so feel free to put your stake in the sand but IMO there's no clearcut best option and each candidate brings something different.

Even if we all agree what we want most is someone who can defend the best perimeter player on the other team and knock down enough 3's to keep his man honest - that player doesn't currently exist on the team.

LeVert does have an experience advantage and he has started more games and is paid more than everyone short of an unexpected move like switching Evan to SF and playing Kevin at starting PF. Like it or not, that sort of thing does matter and even if we don't want to keep him long-term, boosting his trade value is critical to getting something for him.

I want to make it clear that this is not supposed to be me railing on LeVert. I don't see him as a good off-ball threat and there are now two players in the starting line-up that should hold the ball more than he does. It seems he would be much better coming off the bench with Neto and being the playmaker/secondary playmaker when Garland/Mitchell sit.

I feel pretty confident about this one, personally. I still see LeVert still getting his fair share of minutes if Garland and Mitchell stagger minutes and LeVert is always out there when one is out. That would leave him with anywhere from 25 to 30 minutes played.

If Caris's biggest hurdle is to not become a ball stopper, I imagine he can figure that out.

As for the bench, nobody said we have to swap entire units.

Indiana's best 5-man unit last season was Brogdon-Duarte-LeVert-Sabonis-Turner ... I count 4 guys capable of initiating offense in that unit.

[JonFromVA]

And again, I want to re-iterate, I don' t have a dog in the race. I just have my fingers crossed someone steps up in to the role rather than having to accept the lesser of numerous evils.

Well, I do kind of hope Dylan Winder breaks-out and finally validates our selection of him, but that's just a wish. His first concern is trying to convince someone he even belongs in the NBA.

[mcfly1204]

And again, I want to re-iterate, I don' t have a dog in the race. I just have my fingers crossed someone steps up in to the role rather than having to accept the lesser of numerous evils.

Well, I do kind of hope Dylan Winder breaks-out and finally validates our selection of him, but that's just a wish. His first concern is trying to convince someone he even belongs in the NBA.

And that's the thing, you're really not asking for all that much from a guy surrounded by 4 All-Star caliber players in the starting 5. The Cavs have options on the roster now. Will any of those be a good long-term fit? We'll see.