Love Bought Out

[JonFromVA]

My point wasn't to argue the merits of Lamar Stevens playing. I'm just saying he was the guy getting the backup PF minutes until he very abruptly wasn't.

The playoffs obviously didn't go as expected, but the Cavs definitely didn't stick to the rotations and game plans that got us to the playoffs in the first place. We liked LeVert off the bench in the regular season but took his offense away from bench units in the playoffs, leaving them rudderless.

I've been as critical as anyone of JBB but the truth is that Okoro was bad as a starter and LeVert was flat out awful coming off the bench in Game 1. The one thing that LeVert brings is that he can still beat his man off the dribble and the Knicks were just resting Brunson on defense in Game 1. The reality is that a big part of winning in the postseason is adjusting to matchup issues and how the other team is defending you. Aaron Gordon is normally a 4th or 5th option on Denver, but they just fed him on those back cuts all game long because the Heat tried to hide smaller defenders on him. If LeVert made an effort to get that 12 footer going it could've been effective over Brunson and with Robinson playing drop coverage, but you're kind of asking Garland and Mitchell to space for him while he's doing it so that's a mixed bag.

I really think Okoro is more of a natural 2 than a 3. I like him as a part of a three guard rotation so long as we're starting Garland and Mitchell. LeVert is a problematic fit with the starters for obvious reasons. Cedi isn't a starter. I'm not convinced that More Okoro and Stevens changes the outcome of a single game let alone the series. I think a stretch big as part of a three man rotation with Allen and Mobley would've helped a lot.

I'm pretty high on Wantabe as a primary target with the MLE as he can play SF or a small ball stretch 4.

It's fine to come to the conclusion that you're not going to trust Okoro in the playoffs so he shouldn't start. But then he shouldn't have been starting in game 1. Nor should he have been the starter at any point where you'd think you're going to pull him.

You need to believe that your role players are going to recover from a bad night or two. And if they don't, well, the other options are probably going to be worse.

You shouldn't be starting Wade in games 78-82 and then only give him seven minutes in the playoffs. I don't care if he was bad in game 1, so was Rubio but you didn't go benching him.

You shouldn't trust Stevens to play 20 minutes a game post-ASB and then not even try him in the playoffs. He'd have been a much better blitz-and-recover big than, say, Allen. He at least could have given him a breather if we're not going to keep our bigs close to the paint.

Nor should you leapfrog all those guys with Danny Green, who played only 90 minutes in the regular season (most of those with deep bench guys), just because you can't seem to trust the guys you were going with.

Okoro quietly had very good games in games 3-5, and adjusting away from him was probably a bad thing. LeVert was also good, but we need to adjust by subbing Mitchell or Garland out on their bad nights and putting LeVert in. Or benching Rubio.

What we tried to do to adjust was so poorly managed. It has really made me question whether JBB is actually good at managing players.

Yep, that's my problem with JBB in a nutshell - he wasn't even consistent with himself. Of course if it worked, we'd be praising him for his ability to adapt on the fly, but he failed to earn that courtesy.

[jbk1234]

My point wasn't to argue the merits of Lamar Stevens playing. I'm just saying he was the guy getting the backup PF minutes until he very abruptly wasn't.

The playoffs obviously didn't go as expected, but the Cavs definitely didn't stick to the rotations and game plans that got us to the playoffs in the first place. We liked LeVert off the bench in the regular season but took his offense away from bench units in the playoffs, leaving them rudderless.

I've been as critical as anyone of JBB but the truth is that Okoro was bad as a starter and LeVert was flat out awful coming off the bench in Game 1. The one thing that LeVert brings is that he can still beat his man off the dribble and the Knicks were just resting Brunson on defense in Game 1. The reality is that a big part of winning in the postseason is adjusting to matchup issues and how the other team is defending you. Aaron Gordon is normally a 4th or 5th option on Denver, but they just fed him on those back cuts all game long because the Heat tried to hide smaller defenders on him. If LeVert made an effort to get that 12 footer going it could've been effective over Brunson and with Robinson playing drop coverage, but you're kind of asking Garland and Mitchell to space for him while he's doing it so that's a mixed bag.

I really think Okoro is more of a natural 2 than a 3. I like him as a part of a three guard rotation so long as we're starting Garland and Mitchell. LeVert is a problematic fit with the starters for obvious reasons. Cedi isn't a starter. I'm not convinced that More Okoro and Stevens changes the outcome of a single game let alone the series. I think a stretch big as part of a three man rotation with Allen and Mobley would've helped a lot.

I'm pretty high on Wantabe as a primary target with the MLE as he can play SF or a small ball stretch 4.

It's fine to come to the conclusion that you're not going to trust Okoro in the playoffs so he shouldn't start. But then he shouldn't have been starting in game 1. Nor should he have been the starter at any point where you'd think you're going to pull him.

You need to believe that your role players are going to recover from a bad night or two. And if they don't, well, the other options are probably going to be worse.

You shouldn't be starting Wade in games 78-82 and then only give him seven minutes in the playoffs. I don't care if he was bad in game 1, so was Rubio but you didn't go benching him.

You shouldn't trust Stevens to play 20 minutes a game post-ASB and then not even try him in the playoffs. He'd have been a much better blitz-and-recover big than, say, Allen. He at least could have given him a breather if we're not going to keep our bigs close to the paint.

Nor should you leapfrog all those guys with Danny Green, who played only 90 minutes in the regular season (most of those with deep bench guys), just because you can't seem to trust the guys you were going with.

Okoro quietly had very good games in games 3-5, and adjusting away from him was probably a bad thing. LeVert was also good, but we need to adjust by subbing Mitchell or Garland out on their bad nights and putting LeVert in. Or benching Rubio.

What we tried to do to adjust was so poorly managed. It has really made me question whether JBB is actually good at managing players.

It's all well and good to say trust in what brought you here (we were 1-3 against the Knicks in the regular season) but when the opposing team is playing 15 feet off of Okoro, Okoro is reluctant to shoot, Brunson is resting on defense, and still killing you on offense, something has to give. When Okoro goes to the bench early with foul trouble in Game 2, spacing improves, and Garland goes off, it's hard to argue that the coach needs to reinsert Okoro and kill the run. When the Cavs win game 2 with Okoro on the bench, I can't say the coach is obligated to start him in game 3.

I can't argue about Wade and Stevens not getting more run though. That was inexplicable.

[JonFromVA]

I've been as critical as anyone of JBB but the truth is that Okoro was bad as a starter and LeVert was flat out awful coming off the bench in Game 1. The one thing that LeVert brings is that he can still beat his man off the dribble and the Knicks were just resting Brunson on defense in Game 1. The reality is that a big part of winning in the postseason is adjusting to matchup issues and how the other team is defending you. Aaron Gordon is normally a 4th or 5th option on Denver, but they just fed him on those back cuts all game long because the Heat tried to hide smaller defenders on him. If LeVert made an effort to get that 12 footer going it could've been effective over Brunson and with Robinson playing drop coverage, but you're kind of asking Garland and Mitchell to space for him while he's doing it so that's a mixed bag.

I really think Okoro is more of a natural 2 than a 3. I like him as a part of a three guard rotation so long as we're starting Garland and Mitchell. LeVert is a problematic fit with the starters for obvious reasons. Cedi isn't a starter. I'm not convinced that More Okoro and Stevens changes the outcome of a single game let alone the series. I think a stretch big as part of a three man rotation with Allen and Mobley would've helped a lot.

I'm pretty high on Wantabe as a primary target with the MLE as he can play SF or a small ball stretch 4.

It's fine to come to the conclusion that you're not going to trust Okoro in the playoffs so he shouldn't start. But then he shouldn't have been starting in game 1. Nor should he have been the starter at any point where you'd think you're going to pull him.

You need to believe that your role players are going to recover from a bad night or two. And if they don't, well, the other options are probably going to be worse.

You shouldn't be starting Wade in games 78-82 and then only give him seven minutes in the playoffs. I don't care if he was bad in game 1, so was Rubio but you didn't go benching him.

You shouldn't trust Stevens to play 20 minutes a game post-ASB and then not even try him in the playoffs. He'd have been a much better blitz-and-recover big than, say, Allen. He at least could have given him a breather if we're not going to keep our bigs close to the paint.

Nor should you leapfrog all those guys with Danny Green, who played only 90 minutes in the regular season (most of those with deep bench guys), just because you can't seem to trust the guys you were going with.

Okoro quietly had very good games in games 3-5, and adjusting away from him was probably a bad thing. LeVert was also good, but we need to adjust by subbing Mitchell or Garland out on their bad nights and putting LeVert in. Or benching Rubio.

What we tried to do to adjust was so poorly managed. It has really made me question whether JBB is actually good at managing players.

It's all well and good to say trust in what brought you here (we were 1-3 against the Knicks in the regular season) but when the opposing team is playing 15 feet off of Okoro, Okoro is reluctant to shoot, Brunson is resting on defense, and still killing you on offense, something has to give. When Okoro goes to the bench early with foul trouble in Game 2, spacing improves, and Garland goes off, it's hard to argue that the coach needs to reinsert Okoro and kill the run. When the Cavs win game 2 with Okoro on the bench, I can't say the coach is obligated to start him in game 3.

I can't argue about Wade and Stevens not getting more run though. That was inexplicable.

Cool, then establish the pattern in the regular season. Better yet, anticipate specific problems against an opponent you lost 3 out of 4 to and prepare your team for how you plan to approach it.

A coach of a more advanced team might argue he didn't want to tip off his plan to his opponent, but we know there was no plan because JBB came out business as usual.

If consistent lineups and roles are your thing, then go down doing your thing.

[jbk1234]

It's fine to come to the conclusion that you're not going to trust Okoro in the playoffs so he shouldn't start. But then he shouldn't have been starting in game 1. Nor should he have been the starter at any point where you'd think you're going to pull him.

You need to believe that your role players are going to recover from a bad night or two. And if they don't, well, the other options are probably going to be worse.

You shouldn't be starting Wade in games 78-82 and then only give him seven minutes in the playoffs. I don't care if he was bad in game 1, so was Rubio but you didn't go benching him.

You shouldn't trust Stevens to play 20 minutes a game post-ASB and then not even try him in the playoffs. He'd have been a much better blitz-and-recover big than, say, Allen. He at least could have given him a breather if we're not going to keep our bigs close to the paint.

Nor should you leapfrog all those guys with Danny Green, who played only 90 minutes in the regular season (most of those with deep bench guys), just because you can't seem to trust the guys you were going with.

Okoro quietly had very good games in games 3-5, and adjusting away from him was probably a bad thing. LeVert was also good, but we need to adjust by subbing Mitchell or Garland out on their bad nights and putting LeVert in. Or benching Rubio.

What we tried to do to adjust was so poorly managed. It has really made me question whether JBB is actually good at managing players.

It's all well and good to say trust in what brought you here (we were 1-3 against the Knicks in the regular season) but when the opposing team is playing 15 feet off of Okoro, Okoro is reluctant to shoot, Brunson is resting on defense, and still killing you on offense, something has to give. When Okoro goes to the bench early with foul trouble in Game 2, spacing improves, and Garland goes off, it's hard to argue that the coach needs to reinsert Okoro and kill the run. When the Cavs win game 2 with Okoro on the bench, I can't say the coach is obligated to start him in game 3.

I can't argue about Wade and Stevens not getting more run though. That was inexplicable.

Cool, then establish the pattern in the regular season. Better yet, anticipate specific problems against an opponent you lost 3 out of 4 to and prepare your team for how you plan to approach it.

A coach of a more advanced team might argue he didn't want to tip off his plan to his opponent, but we know there was no plan because JBB came out business as usual.

If consistent lineups and roles are your thing, then go down doing your thing.

I hate that I'm in anyway defending JBB, but if your thing isn't working, it's better to try something else. The problem is that there were plenty of signs in the regular season that his thing wouldn't work in the playoffs and they went ignored.

[JujitsuFlip]

My issue is still JB and his staff had 10 days or more to come up with a gameplan and failed to.

[JonFromVA]

It's all well and good to say trust in what brought you here (we were 1-3 against the Knicks in the regular season) but when the opposing team is playing 15 feet off of Okoro, Okoro is reluctant to shoot, Brunson is resting on defense, and still killing you on offense, something has to give. When Okoro goes to the bench early with foul trouble in Game 2, spacing improves, and Garland goes off, it's hard to argue that the coach needs to reinsert Okoro and kill the run. When the Cavs win game 2 with Okoro on the bench, I can't say the coach is obligated to start him in game 3.

I can't argue about Wade and Stevens not getting more run though. That was inexplicable.

Cool, then establish the pattern in the regular season. Better yet, anticipate specific problems against an opponent you lost 3 out of 4 to and prepare your team for how you plan to approach it.

A coach of a more advanced team might argue he didn't want to tip off his plan to his opponent, but we know there was no plan because JBB came out business as usual.

If consistent lineups and roles are your thing, then go down doing your thing.

I hate that I'm in anyway defending JBB, but if your thing isn't working, it's better to try something else. The problem is that there were plenty of signs in the regular season that his thing wouldn't work in the playoffs and they went ignored.

Well, by your theory after the team struggled to score 79 points in game 3, he should have adjusted again. I don't think he did much more from that point than to tinker with Osman, Okoro, and Green's minutes off the bench with his final iteration in game 5 was to give Isaac most of the bench minutes and Stevens a little run. That'd be fine if the starting lineup was working, but that wasn't the case.

As it would turn out, game 1 was our most competitive game of the 4 losses and Isaac would lead the team in OnCourt +/- with a scant +0.1. Well, technically I'm leaving out Stevens and Lopez but they only played 9 and 6 minutes and mostly in garbage time.

So, no matter how you slice it, JBB's preparation, reactions, adjustments, motivations, etc, were inconsistent and ineffective.

[jbk1234]

Cool, then establish the pattern in the regular season. Better yet, anticipate specific problems against an opponent you lost 3 out of 4 to and prepare your team for how you plan to approach it.

A coach of a more advanced team might argue he didn't want to tip off his plan to his opponent, but we know there was no plan because JBB came out business as usual.

If consistent lineups and roles are your thing, then go down doing your thing.

I hate that I'm in anyway defending JBB, but if your thing isn't working, it's better to try something else. The problem is that there were plenty of signs in the regular season that his thing wouldn't work in the playoffs and they went ignored.

Well, by your theory after the team struggled to score 79 points in game 3, he should have adjusted again. I don't think he did much more from that point than to tinker with Osman, Okoro, and Green's minutes off the bench with his final iteration in game 5 was to give Isaac most of the bench minutes and Stevens a little run. That'd be fine if the starting lineup was working, but that wasn't the case.

As it would turn out, game 1 was our most competitive game of the 4 losses and Isaac would lead the team in OnCourt +/- with a scant +0.1. Well, technically I'm leaving out Stevens and Lopez but they only played 9 and 6 minutes and mostly in garbage time.

So, no matter how you slice it, JBB's preparation, reactions, adjustments, motivations, etc, were inconsistent and ineffective.

Yeah, if you fail to score 80 points as a team I think you might want to revisit some things. You're probably not going to win when Garland has the worse shooting night of his career, but the entire rest of the roster, especially a roster with Mitchell on it, should be able to get you more than 80.

I don't think JBB is the guy who's going to get the Cavs to the next level and I'm pissed Vogel is signing a long-term deal with the Suns. Our difference of opinion is that you think JBB should've had the confidence to stick with his standard rotation and I think his confidence in that rotation was misplaced to begin with.

[JonFromVA]

I hate that I'm in anyway defending JBB, but if your thing isn't working, it's better to try something else. The problem is that there were plenty of signs in the regular season that his thing wouldn't work in the playoffs and they went ignored.

Well, by your theory after the team struggled to score 79 points in game 3, he should have adjusted again. I don't think he did much more from that point than to tinker with Osman, Okoro, and Green's minutes off the bench with his final iteration in game 5 was to give Isaac most of the bench minutes and Stevens a little run. That'd be fine if the starting lineup was working, but that wasn't the case.

As it would turn out, game 1 was our most competitive game of the 4 losses and Isaac would lead the team in OnCourt +/- with a scant +0.1. Well, technically I'm leaving out Stevens and Lopez but they only played 9 and 6 minutes and mostly in garbage time.

So, no matter how you slice it, JBB's preparation, reactions, adjustments, motivations, etc, were inconsistent and ineffective.

Yeah, if you fail to score 80 points as a team I think you might want to revisit some things. You're probably not going to win when Garland has the worse shooting night of his career, but the entire rest of the roster, especially a roster with Mitchell on it, should be able to get you more than 80.

I don't think JBB is the guy who's going to get the Cavs to the next level and I'm pissed Vogel is signing a long-term deal with the Suns. Our difference of opinion is that you think JBB should've had the confidence to stick with his standard rotation and I think his confidence in that rotation was misplaced to begin with.

nah, I just think he should live or die doing his thing, not panic, not what someone else thinks he should do.

Of course I'd rather he arrived at the right thing and had prepared himself and the team for it. He had good reasons for not starting LeVert and not relying on Cedi and changing that up didn't help. The big move would have been to go small, but Danny Green at PF when we've got Wade and Stevens?

It just smells of panic.

[JujitsuFlip]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/former-cavalier-kevin-love-leaves-door-open-to-cleveland-return

The caveat to Love returning to CLE is probably that it requires LeBron, even though Andy, Green, and TT all returned organically.

[Iwasawitness]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/former-cavalier-kevin-love-leaves-door-open-to-cleveland-return

The caveat to Love returning to CLE is probably that it requires LeBron, even though Andy, Green, and TT all returned organically.

Huh. I brought this up a month back but I never really thought about whether or not it would be realistic. Fact of the matter is that Kevin, at least based on what I’ve seen, really grew to love Cleveland. It’s really admirable on his end that he’d even want to come back after being able to find a new home in Miami.

Then again… he wouldn’t be the first person to do it.

[mcfly1204]

I have zero interest in seeing Love back in Cleveland ever.

[toooskies]

We arguably still have a 2021-22 Kevin Love-sized hole as a backup big + shooter, although Niang's career-best rebounding numbers are admirable. I didn't think Dean Wade could disappear more on offense than last year, but he has a total of four shots inside the arc this year in 303 minutes. All his offensive stats are down even from his blame-it-on-the-shoulder 2022-23 season.

[JonFromVA]

I have zero interest in seeing Love back in Cleveland ever.

The Heat do owe us a favor for giving them the OG DWade back on the cheap, but here's hoping any pre-retirement return by Kevin is short & sweet.

He could have finished off his career as a Cavalier by simply not asking out of his contract.

[JujitsuFlip]

1. DG
2. Strus/Bronny
3. LBJ
4. Love
5. Mobley

That team probably at least gets outta the first round lol

[jbk1234]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/former-cavalier-kevin-love-leaves-door-open-to-cleveland-return

The caveat to Love returning to CLE is probably that it requires LeBron, even though Andy, Green, and TT all returned organically.

The caveat is that by the time next season rolls around, he has to be worth the roster spot, and while I can make the case he'd deserve it over I. Mobley, there are obvious reasons why it's more complicated than that.

Also, I don't see LBJ opting out of $50M unless Morey gets desperate enough to do some stupid.

[JonFromVA]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/former-cavalier-kevin-love-leaves-door-open-to-cleveland-return

The caveat to Love returning to CLE is probably that it requires LeBron, even though Andy, Green, and TT all returned organically.

The caveat is that by the time next season rolls around, he has to be worth the roster spot, and while I can make the case he'd deserve it over I. Mobley, there are obvious reasons why it's more complicated than that.

Also, I don't see LBJ opting out of $50M unless Morey gets desperate enough to do some stupid.

If the Lakers draft his Son, he'd have no reason to, but he is on the record for saying he'd join any team that drafts Jr (assuming Bronny enters the draft).

I'm not sure what I think of a 2016 reunion tour, I just hope it doesn't end up leaving us with a rebuild when it's over if it does go down. Which means it would need to be done in a way that helps our core rather than disrupting and wrecking it.

[JujitsuFlip]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/former-cavalier-kevin-love-leaves-door-open-to-cleveland-return

The caveat to Love returning to CLE is probably that it requires LeBron, even though Andy, Green, and TT all returned organically.

The caveat is that by the time next season rolls around, he has to be worth the roster spot, and while I can make the case he'd deserve it over I. Mobley, there are obvious reasons why it's more complicated than that.

Also, I don't see LBJ opting out of $50M unless Morey gets desperate enough to do some stupid.

LeBron is a billionaire, he could afford to take a pay cut to join whatever team drafts Bronny.

[jbk1234]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/former-cavalier-kevin-love-leaves-door-open-to-cleveland-return

The caveat to Love returning to CLE is probably that it requires LeBron, even though Andy, Green, and TT all returned organically.

The caveat is that by the time next season rolls around, he has to be worth the roster spot, and while I can make the case he'd deserve it over I. Mobley, there are obvious reasons why it's more complicated than that.

Also, I don't see LBJ opting out of $50M unless Morey gets desperate enough to do some stupid.

If the Lakers draft his Son, he'd have no reason to, but he is on the record for saying he'd join any team that drafts Jr (assuming Bronny enters the draft).

I'm not sure what I think of a 2016 reunion tour, I just hope it doesn't end up leaving us with a rebuild when it's over if it does go down. Which means it would need to be done in a way that helps our core rather than disrupting and wrecking it.

It would need to be done in way where LBJ would take less than $50M to play here which is why I don't see it happening. I'd offer LeVert, Rubio, Wade (or Okoro), and Emoni Bates. The Lakers.would ask for our core four guys as matching salary and that should be shortest trade conversation in history. I'd be reluctant to offer Strus tbh.

[JonFromVA]

The caveat is that by the time next season rolls around, he has to be worth the roster spot, and while I can make the case he'd deserve it over I. Mobley, there are obvious reasons why it's more complicated than that.

Also, I don't see LBJ opting out of $50M unless Morey gets desperate enough to do some stupid.

If the Lakers draft his Son, he'd have no reason to, but he is on the record for saying he'd join any team that drafts Jr (assuming Bronny enters the draft).

I'm not sure what I think of a 2016 reunion tour, I just hope it doesn't end up leaving us with a rebuild when it's over if it does go down. Which means it would need to be done in a way that helps our core rather than disrupting and wrecking it.

It would need to be done in way where LBJ would take less than $50M to play here which is why I don't see it happening. I'd offer LeVert, Rubio, Wade (or Okoro), and Emoni Bates. The Lakers.would ask for our core four guys as matching salary and that should be shortest trade conversation in history. I'd be reluctant to offer Strus tbh.

Initially James put no conditions on it, but looks like he's hedged a bit since. Maybe he didn't think he'd still be the #1 guy on the Lakers at this point?

Now he just says he wants to be on the floor at the same time, so maybe he'll take a G-league assignment so he can play against his Son or something.

https://www.si.com/nba/2023/01/07/lebron-james-play-with-bronny-nba-clarifies-plan-interview

I do think the Lakers will cater to whatever James wants and however he wants to exit ... but if the Lakers aren't too much of a train-wreck, he just might prefer to stay put and earn that cash.

[jbk1234]

https://www.si.com/nba/cavaliers/news/former-cavalier-kevin-love-leaves-door-open-to-cleveland-return

The caveat to Love returning to CLE is probably that it requires LeBron, even though Andy, Green, and TT all returned organically.

The caveat is that by the time next season rolls around, he has to be worth the roster spot, and while I can make the case he'd deserve it over I. Mobley, there are obvious reasons why it's more complicated than that.

Also, I don't see LBJ opting out of $50M unless Morey gets desperate enough to do some stupid.

LeBron is a billionaire, he could afford to take a pay cut to join whatever team drafts Bronny.

Oh, I think it happens before he retires, but the reality is that LBJ isn't good enough anymore to just go anywhere and win a championship. Genuine contenders won't be interested in clearing $50M in space (more as most are well over the cap) or trading key pieces to bring him aboard.

With Bronny, he's got a heart condition so whether he's drafted, and where in the draft he's taken, or whether he's playing at all, are open questions.

So he's got $50M sitting right there, the desire to win another ring, and the dream of playing with his son (which got a lot more complicated). If Philly misses out on O.G. and Siakam, they may have the opportunity to offer all three. The Cavs will not.