Game 20: Cavs @ Pistons 12/2/2023

[JujitsuFlip]

A lot of debate on single game +/- but i did find this a bit interesting with all the Mitchell talk for last night's game.

Niang +15
Okoro +15
Garland +13
Strus +10
Allen +4
Mobley +1
TT 0
CPJ 0
Merrill 0
Mitchell -13

Looks like the Cavs really lost the minutes in which Mitchell was on the floor last night.

[ijspeelman]

A lot of debate on single game +/- but i did find this a bit interesting with all the Mitchell talk for last night's game.

Niang +15
Okoro +15
Garland +13
Strus +10
Allen +4
Mobley +1
TT 0
CPJ 0
Merrill 0
Mitchell -13

Looks like the Cavs really lost the minutes in which Mitchell was on the floor last night.

On/Off for entire season:
Max Strus +13.6
Evan Mobley +6.1
Donovan Mitchell +11.3
Darius Garland +6.7
Caris LeVert +2.3
Georges Niang -5.1
Jarrett Allen +4.1
Isaac Okoro -0.5
Dean Wade +2.5
Craig Porter Jr -13.9
Tristan Thompson -3.3
Sam Merrill -20.2
Emoni Bates -57.6
Damian Jones -33.1
Ty Jerome -39.0
Isaiah Mobley -31.8

I find single game +/- completely useless and I find on/off to be extremely finnicky, but just wanted to provide the long view of the season

[jbk1234]

This attitude is just mind blowing to me.

What was this season supposed to be to people? Should we just be happy with mediocre? I guess according to this.

The idea that teams just “turn it on” is a junk narrative that only applies to the Heat and LeBron. You are what you play like, even early in the season. Bl

By the way, it’s 20% through the season so… at what point are we supposed to care about winning?

You would think that you’d want to build on what you did last season but instead, who cares about the first 2 months of the season…. This attitude is exactly why we aren’t and won’t be a contender because this attitude is top down

The No. 1 goal has to be getting our half court offense functioning well, against aggressive, physical defenses, prior to the deadline. If that happens, everything else will take care of itself. Obviously, you need to not run guys into the ground while getting there, but if we're going to be fair to JBB, injuries have limited his options.

Roster construction, while better after signing Strus and Niang, still includes 3 guys who can't be relied upon due to health in Rubio, Wade, and Ty Jerome, and Damion Jones, who cant be relied upon due to intense suckage. That's almost a third of the roster that's unusable, and a full third if you include I. Mobley, which I do..

While TT has been a pleasant surprise, and Niang has been able eat minutes, I suspect most GMs would want at least one more usable big off the bench (which should be Wade's role if he wasn't cementing himself as a rich man's Windler). Also, our SF rotation is filled with guys whose best position is SG, e.g. Strus, Okoro, and LeVert (again, Wade being out hurts here).

We have our five starters with TT, Niang, LeVert, Okoro, and possibly CPJ as, at least IMO, viable bench options. So with all five starters healthy, JBB is starting with 10 viable players, but if two of those 10 guys are out, he's down to 8 That includes CPJ, who if we're being honest, constitutes 99% of the short rotation debate.

The reality is that the Cavs are on the clock with Mitchell and Okoro and spacing is still a pretty big issue when it comes to bench players. Niang and (sometimes) LeVert help fill that role. TT, Okoro, and CPJ don't. Giving CPJ regular minutes could very well cost Okoro the same. Letting CPJ run the offense in the second unit could anger Mitchell. We've got plenty of time to figure out how to incorporate CPJ, but we may be reaching a decision point on Okoro and Mitchell.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying about the what if and maybe game. This is just called ignoring reality.

It didn’t happen last year, we’re 20%+ through the season and it’s not happening this year. Not only that but it’s been worse across the board this year. I don’t want to hear about injuries because that’s a poor excuse. It’s not going to happen.

This isn’t some office job where you can be mediocre forever and nobody cares. You’re paid millions of dollars to take a team and get them to play winning basketball. This isn’t it. You could make all these excuses in year 1 and year 2 but we’re in year 3 and it’s the worst that it’s been.

You can be a fan and that’s great but also be realistic. This team is not going to figure it out

There's making excuses and there's grappling with reality. The reality is that the Cavs have about 10 guys who would find themselves in the rotation on a playoff team. When two of them are injured, you're down to 8. If three of them are injured, you're down to 7. If fans are advocating for giving more minutes to the 11-15th players on the roster, name the players you think should be on the floor.

[JujitsuFlip]

The No. 1 goal has to be getting our half court offense functioning well, against aggressive, physical defenses, prior to the deadline. If that happens, everything else will take care of itself. Obviously, you need to not run guys into the ground while getting there, but if we're going to be fair to JBB, injuries have limited his options.

Roster construction, while better after signing Strus and Niang, still includes 3 guys who can't be relied upon due to health in Rubio, Wade, and Ty Jerome, and Damion Jones, who cant be relied upon due to intense suckage. That's almost a third of the roster that's unusable, and a full third if you include I. Mobley, which I do..

While TT has been a pleasant surprise, and Niang has been able eat minutes, I suspect most GMs would want at least one more usable big off the bench (which should be Wade's role if he wasn't cementing himself as a rich man's Windler). Also, our SF rotation is filled with guys whose best position is SG, e.g. Strus, Okoro, and LeVert (again, Wade being out hurts here).

We have our five starters with TT, Niang, LeVert, Okoro, and possibly CPJ as, at least IMO, viable bench options. So with all five starters healthy, JBB is starting with 10 viable players, but if two of those 10 guys are out, he's down to 8 That includes CPJ, who if we're being honest, constitutes 99% of the short rotation debate.

The reality is that the Cavs are on the clock with Mitchell and Okoro and spacing is still a pretty big issue when it comes to bench players. Niang and (sometimes) LeVert help fill that role. TT, Okoro, and CPJ don't. Giving CPJ regular minutes could very well cost Okoro the same. Letting CPJ run the offense in the second unit could anger Mitchell. We've got plenty of time to figure out how to incorporate CPJ, but we may be reaching a decision point on Okoro and Mitchell.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying about the what if and maybe game. This is just called ignoring reality.

It didn’t happen last year, we’re 20%+ through the season and it’s not happening this year. Not only that but it’s been worse across the board this year. I don’t want to hear about injuries because that’s a poor excuse. It’s not going to happen.

This isn’t some office job where you can be mediocre forever and nobody cares. You’re paid millions of dollars to take a team and get them to play winning basketball. This isn’t it. You could make all these excuses in year 1 and year 2 but we’re in year 3 and it’s the worst that it’s been.

You can be a fan and that’s great but also be realistic. This team is not going to figure it out

There's making excuses and there's grappling with reality. The reality is that the Cavs have about 10 guys who would find themselves in the rotation on a playoff team. When two of them are injured, you're down to 8. If three of them are injured, you're down to 7. If fans are advocating for giving more minutes to the 11-15th players on the roster, name the players you think should be on the floor.

Why should fans be naming players? Goofball JB Bickerstaff said he trusted every guy on this roster and he was gonna go 11 deep every night.

He knew this with a vacant 15 spot, he knew this with essentially a vacant 14 spot since Rubio refuses to report.

JB shouldn't say stupid crap publicly if he just planned to play an 8 man regular season rotation like he's been doing for the 4 season prior as the Cavs head coach.

[jbk1234]

This is exactly what I’ve been saying about the what if and maybe game. This is just called ignoring reality.

It didn’t happen last year, we’re 20%+ through the season and it’s not happening this year. Not only that but it’s been worse across the board this year. I don’t want to hear about injuries because that’s a poor excuse. It’s not going to happen.

This isn’t some office job where you can be mediocre forever and nobody cares. You’re paid millions of dollars to take a team and get them to play winning basketball. This isn’t it. You could make all these excuses in year 1 and year 2 but we’re in year 3 and it’s the worst that it’s been.

You can be a fan and that’s great but also be realistic. This team is not going to figure it out

There's making excuses and there's grappling with reality. The reality is that the Cavs have about 10 guys who would find themselves in the rotation on a playoff team. When two of them are injured, you're down to 8. If three of them are injured, you're down to 7. If fans are advocating for giving more minutes to the 11-15th players on the roster, name the players you think should be on the floor.

Why should fans be naming players? Goofball JB Bickerstaff said he trusted every guy on this roster and he was gonna go 11 deep every night.

He knew this with a vacant 15 spot, he knew this with essentially a vacant 14 spot since Rubio refuses to report.

JB shouldn't say stupid crap publicly if he just planned to play an 8 man regular season rotation like he's been doing for the 4 season prior as the Cavs head coach.

Well the last coach to throw the front office under the bus in terms of bench players was Nurse and he got fired. So there's that. The Raptors are even worse than last season now.

Look, I would've fired JBB after the Knicks series, but the front office didn't, and now the only question is whether firing him this early in the season will help more than it hurts. I'm not convinced that JBB or his *rotations* are the primary problem. I've plenty of doubts about JBB, and I'm skeptical he works out long term, but the solution can't be worse than the problem.

The primary problem is health and Garland/Mitchell figuring out how to play alongside one another such that the whole is more than the sum of its parts. Could another coach help with the latter? Possibly. Is that coach available right now? I doubt it.

[JujitsuFlip]

There's making excuses and there's grappling with reality. The reality is that the Cavs have about 10 guys who would find themselves in the rotation on a playoff team. When two of them are injured, you're down to 8. If three of them are injured, you're down to 7. If fans are advocating for giving more minutes to the 11-15th players on the roster, name the players you think should be on the floor.

Why should fans be naming players? Goofball JB Bickerstaff said he trusted every guy on this roster and he was gonna go 11 deep every night.

He knew this with a vacant 15 spot, he knew this with essentially a vacant 14 spot since Rubio refuses to report.

JB shouldn't say stupid crap publicly if he just planned to play an 8 man regular season rotation like he's been doing for the 4 season prior as the Cavs head coach.

Well the last coach to throw the front office under the bus in terms of bench players was Nurse and he got fired. So there's that. The Raptors are even worse than last season now.

Look, I would've fired JBB after the Knicks series, but the front office didn't, and now the only question is whether firing him this early in the season will help more than it hurts. I'm not convinced that JBB or his *rotations* are the primary problem. I've plenty of doubts about JBB, and I'm skeptical he works out long term, but the solution can't be worse than the problem.

The primary problem is health and Garland/Mitchell figuring out how to play alongside one another such that the whole is more than the sum of its parts. Could another coach help with the latter? Possibly. Is that coach available right now? I doubt it.

But we will never know what another coach can do, as long as JB holds the position he does.

This is his 5th season, he's made zero major improvements for how he runs a team. We know what we're getting.

If this team qualifies for the play-in or playoffs, wr already know it's gonna be an early exit if JB is the HC.

[jasonxxx102]

The No. 1 goal has to be getting our half court offense functioning well, against aggressive, physical defenses, prior to the deadline. If that happens, everything else will take care of itself. Obviously, you need to not run guys into the ground while getting there, but if we're going to be fair to JBB, injuries have limited his options.

Roster construction, while better after signing Strus and Niang, still includes 3 guys who can't be relied upon due to health in Rubio, Wade, and Ty Jerome, and Damion Jones, who cant be relied upon due to intense suckage. That's almost a third of the roster that's unusable, and a full third if you include I. Mobley, which I do..

While TT has been a pleasant surprise, and Niang has been able eat minutes, I suspect most GMs would want at least one more usable big off the bench (which should be Wade's role if he wasn't cementing himself as a rich man's Windler). Also, our SF rotation is filled with guys whose best position is SG, e.g. Strus, Okoro, and LeVert (again, Wade being out hurts here).

We have our five starters with TT, Niang, LeVert, Okoro, and possibly CPJ as, at least IMO, viable bench options. So with all five starters healthy, JBB is starting with 10 viable players, but if two of those 10 guys are out, he's down to 8 That includes CPJ, who if we're being honest, constitutes 99% of the short rotation debate.

The reality is that the Cavs are on the clock with Mitchell and Okoro and spacing is still a pretty big issue when it comes to bench players. Niang and (sometimes) LeVert help fill that role. TT, Okoro, and CPJ don't. Giving CPJ regular minutes could very well cost Okoro the same. Letting CPJ run the offense in the second unit could anger Mitchell. We've got plenty of time to figure out how to incorporate CPJ, but we may be reaching a decision point on Okoro and Mitchell.

This is exactly what I’ve been saying about the what if and maybe game. This is just called ignoring reality.

It didn’t happen last year, we’re 20%+ through the season and it’s not happening this year. Not only that but it’s been worse across the board this year. I don’t want to hear about injuries because that’s a poor excuse. It’s not going to happen.

This isn’t some office job where you can be mediocre forever and nobody cares. You’re paid millions of dollars to take a team and get them to play winning basketball. This isn’t it. You could make all these excuses in year 1 and year 2 but we’re in year 3 and it’s the worst that it’s been.

You can be a fan and that’s great but also be realistic. This team is not going to figure it out

There's making excuses and there's grappling with reality. The reality is that the Cavs have about 10 guys who would find themselves in the rotation on a playoff team. When two of them are injured, you're down to 8. If three of them are injured, you're down to 7. If fans are advocating for giving more minutes to the 11-15th players on the roster, name the players you think should be on the floor.

I don’t care about the rotations, whether he plays 8 or 11 it makes no difference.

I’m not interested in making 100 excuses. Injuries, rotations, pressure to win blah blah blah it’s all crap.

There’s no “system” which is why the games ALWAYS degenerate into iso ball. Every single game for all of JBs tenure has been the same script. Throw away whatever game plan you had as soon as there’s any adversity and just stand there and watch your guards play 2000s hero ball.

You can’t plug and play players into a system that doesn’t exist. Strus has been really good but it hasn’t mattered or made the slightest difference.

This is what people can’t seem to figure out about NBA basketball, it’s as much about the players as the system. There’s no flow, the players are out there acting like robots.

We needed shooting, we got it and guess what, the offense is worse. Cavs fans will always make excuses and say we need this or that player while totally ignoring the fact that no matter what player you put in, it doesn’t matter.

How come nobody is talking about Garlands awful start to the season? Are we blaming his career low AST:TO on injuries? Mitchell regressed to his mean this year. Your starting guards are turning the ball over 7 times a game and what has JB done about that? Nothing of course

We can sit here and talk about 5 million different things while ignoring the reality that as long as JB is the head coach this team is dead in the water

[jbk1234]

This is exactly what I’ve been saying about the what if and maybe game. This is just called ignoring reality.

It didn’t happen last year, we’re 20%+ through the season and it’s not happening this year. Not only that but it’s been worse across the board this year. I don’t want to hear about injuries because that’s a poor excuse. It’s not going to happen.

This isn’t some office job where you can be mediocre forever and nobody cares. You’re paid millions of dollars to take a team and get them to play winning basketball. This isn’t it. You could make all these excuses in year 1 and year 2 but we’re in year 3 and it’s the worst that it’s been.

You can be a fan and that’s great but also be realistic. This team is not going to figure it out

There's making excuses and there's grappling with reality. The reality is that the Cavs have about 10 guys who would find themselves in the rotation on a playoff team. When two of them are injured, you're down to 8. If three of them are injured, you're down to 7. If fans are advocating for giving more minutes to the 11-15th players on the roster, name the players you think should be on the floor.

I don’t care about the rotations, whether he plays 8 or 11 it makes no difference.

I’m not interested in making 100 excuses. Injuries, rotations, pressure to win blah blah blah it’s all crap.

There’s no “system” which is why the games ALWAYS degenerate into iso ball. Every single game for all of JBs tenure has been the same script. Throw away whatever game plan you had as soon as there’s any adversity and just stand there and watch your guards play 2000s hero ball.

You can’t plug and play players into a system that doesn’t exist. Strus has been really good but it hasn’t mattered or made the slightest difference.

This is what people can’t seem to figure out about NBA basketball, it’s as much about the players as the system. There’s no flow, the players are out there acting like robots.

We needed shooting, we got it and guess what, the offense is worse. Cavs fans will always make excuses and say we need this or that player while totally ignoring the fact that no matter what player you put in, it doesn’t matter.

How come nobody is talking about Garlands awful start to the season? Are we blaming his career low AST:TO on injuries? Mitchell regressed to his mean this year. Your starting guards are turning the ball over 7 times a game and what has JB done about that? Nothing of course

We can sit here and talk about 5 million different things while ignoring the reality that as long as JB is the head coach this team is dead in the water

I agree with these critiques more than the rotation stuff. I have doubts about his ability to adjust in game in particular, or be proactive in anticipating what the other team will attempt. That said, I'm unconvinced the absence of synergy from the Garland/Mitchell pairing will be solved by a coaching change in-season.

[jasonxxx102]

There's making excuses and there's grappling with reality. The reality is that the Cavs have about 10 guys who would find themselves in the rotation on a playoff team. When two of them are injured, you're down to 8. If three of them are injured, you're down to 7. If fans are advocating for giving more minutes to the 11-15th players on the roster, name the players you think should be on the floor.

I don’t care about the rotations, whether he plays 8 or 11 it makes no difference.

I’m not interested in making 100 excuses. Injuries, rotations, pressure to win blah blah blah it’s all crap.

There’s no “system” which is why the games ALWAYS degenerate into iso ball. Every single game for all of JBs tenure has been the same script. Throw away whatever game plan you had as soon as there’s any adversity and just stand there and watch your guards play 2000s hero ball.

You can’t plug and play players into a system that doesn’t exist. Strus has been really good but it hasn’t mattered or made the slightest difference.

This is what people can’t seem to figure out about NBA basketball, it’s as much about the players as the system. There’s no flow, the players are out there acting like robots.

We needed shooting, we got it and guess what, the offense is worse. Cavs fans will always make excuses and say we need this or that player while totally ignoring the fact that no matter what player you put in, it doesn’t matter.

How come nobody is talking about Garlands awful start to the season? Are we blaming his career low AST:TO on injuries? Mitchell regressed to his mean this year. Your starting guards are turning the ball over 7 times a game and what has JB done about that? Nothing of course

We can sit here and talk about 5 million different things while ignoring the reality that as long as JB is the head coach this team is dead in the water

I agree with these critiques more than the rotation stuff. I have doubts about his ability to adjust in game in particular, or be proactive in anticipating what the other team will attempt. That said, I'm unconvinced the absence of synergy from the Garland/Mitchell pairing will be solved by a coaching change in-season.

I agree with this but more open to the possibility of it working out.

I am 100% positive this teams lack of success is almost all on JB. Any change will be a positive.

I’ll admit I’ve soured quite a bit on the Garland/Mitchell pairing but for all of his flaws, I love the fire Mitchell plays with. I think he can be a great asset to the team as your 2nd best player and definitely not as the primary ball handler. The question is whether or not he will buy into that.