2024 ATL Thread - Acuña Out for Season; Angel Hernandez Retires; MLB to Incorporate Negro League Stats

[Kerb Hohl]

I'm happy for Pirates fans tbh, they deserve something good for a change. I won't be happy when we have to face him though.

The obvious question is when will his reconstructive surgery be and will they get to contention before then.

I know he has good stuff otherwise, but not sure if it's good enough for a return several years from now if he's only throwing 95, not 101.

I do think with Skenes, Jones, Cruz, Reynolds...they might get themselves in contention for a wild card slot this year. They have a solid team.

[MickeyDavis]

I'm happy for Pirates fans tbh, they deserve something good for a change. I won't be happy when we have to face him though.

I completely forgot MLB has a draft lottery now. Nats would have had him without that.

[Turk Nowitzki]

So is Kyle Hendricks like completely cooked or what is going on there?

[ReasonablySober]

Read on Twitter

[Matches Malone]

Read on Twitter

[ReasonablySober]

God I hate that Shota's deal is looking like a bargain for the Cubs right now.

[crkone]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/40186833/mlb-2024-josh-hader-usage-rules-contract-brewers-astros

Buster Olney story about Hader setting limits on his outings

[ReasonablySober]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/40186833/mlb-2024-josh-hader-usage-rules-contract-brewers-astros

Buster Olney story about Hader setting limits on his outings

Hader and his agent come off as completely reasonable. MLB and the Stearns look terrible.

[MVP2110]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/40186833/mlb-2024-josh-hader-usage-rules-contract-brewers-astros

Buster Olney story about Hader setting limits on his outings

Hader and his agent come off as completely reasonable. MLB and the Stearns look terrible.

Not sure I see that, we know that the arbitration system is dumb & outdated, by from my knowledge the MLBPA has never proposed an alternative whereas MLB did in the last CBA. And it's not like teams have some massive advantage in arbitration, I believe they win slightly more than 50% of the time but it's hardly at an outrageous rate. If the arb process was truly that terrible then we'd see MLBPA make it a priority to change it but so far they haven't.

When it comes to Stearns I really don't see how he comes off that bad. Hader's agent specifically states that Stearns understood why Hader was putting these rules in place and that he didn't take it personally.

[coolhandluke121]

I do think Hader and Berry are vindicated, but the real villain is the arbitration system. And saves are so overrated it's disgusting. How does the dumbest idea in the room win out? Hader was far more valuable as the unicorn leverage reliever than as an elite 3-out closer.

Also, it's time to stop underpaying so many of the best players via arbitration for so long. The CBA favors vets, but the players union needs to take a hard look at their role in that. Their own vets aren't getting the contracts they were expecting anymore because it's better business to underpay young players who are just as effective, if not more so.

Arbitration is completely broken.

[ReasonablySober]

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/40186833/mlb-2024-josh-hader-usage-rules-contract-brewers-astros

Buster Olney story about Hader setting limits on his outings

Hader and his agent come off as completely reasonable. MLB and the Stearns look terrible.

Not sure I see that, we know that the arbitration system is dumb & outdated, by from my knowledge the MLBPA has never proposed an alternative whereas MLB has. And it's not like teams have some massive advantage in arbitration, I believe they win slightly more than 50% of the time but it's hardly at an outrageous rate.

When it comes to Stearns I really don't see how he comes off that bad. Hader's agent specifically states that Stearns understood why Hader was putting these rules in place and that he didn't take it personally.

Stearns also acknowledged that the lawyers presenting the case for the Brewers would introduce offensive statements that Hader posted on social media as a teenager, years before he signed professionally (a tactic front offices had used in contentious arbitration hearings before).

[ReasonablySober]

In the end this is just a repeat of the Burnes situation. Was ruining your relationship with your best players worth the extra $750k-$1m? In this case it had a tangible effect on the field.

[MVP2110]

Hader and his agent come off as completely reasonable. MLB and the Stearns look terrible.

Not sure I see that, we know that the arbitration system is dumb & outdated, by from my knowledge the MLBPA has never proposed an alternative whereas MLB has. And it's not like teams have some massive advantage in arbitration, I believe they win slightly more than 50% of the time but it's hardly at an outrageous rate.

When it comes to Stearns I really don't see how he comes off that bad. Hader's agent specifically states that Stearns understood why Hader was putting these rules in place and that he didn't take it personally.

Stearns also acknowledged that the lawyers presenting the case for the Brewers would introduce offensive statements that Hader posted on social media as a teenager, years before he signed professionally (a tactic front offices had used in contentious arbitration hearings before).

That's not really a Stearns decision though. Teams outsource these cases to outside Lawyers as to not have to argue against their own player. You could say teams could dictate how the lawyers argue but from my understanding teams often stay out of that process and let the lawyers do their thing.

[MVP2110]

In the end this is just a repeat of the Burnes situation. Was ruining your relationship with your best players worth the extra $750k-$1m? In this case it had a tangible effect on the field.

Compounding precedents is a real thing and if every team had this same thought then player salaries would sky rocket through the arbitration process. I get it's dumb for billionaires and millionaires to be arguing over thousands, but that's because they aren't actually arguing over thousands, each new precedent gives players as a whole millions and cost teams millions. It's a dumb system that should be overhauled but until the MLBPA proposes any sort of alternative then I don't feel bad for them.

[trwi7]

Not sure I see that, we know that the arbitration system is dumb & outdated, by from my knowledge the MLBPA has never proposed an alternative whereas MLB has. And it's not like teams have some massive advantage in arbitration, I believe they win slightly more than 50% of the time but it's hardly at an outrageous rate.

When it comes to Stearns I really don't see how he comes off that bad. Hader's agent specifically states that Stearns understood why Hader was putting these rules in place and that he didn't take it personally.

Stearns also acknowledged that the lawyers presenting the case for the Brewers would introduce offensive statements that Hader posted on social media as a teenager, years before he signed professionally (a tactic front offices had used in contentious arbitration hearings before).

That's not really a Stearns decision though. Teams outsource these cases to outside Lawyers as to not have to argue against their own player. You could say teams could dictate how the lawyers argue but from my understanding teams often stay out of that process and let the lawyers do their thing.

Stearns could very easily say hey, we want to win this but this, this and this are off limits in the argument.

[MVP2110]

That's not really a Stearns decision though. Teams outsource these cases to outside Lawyers as to not have to argue against their own player. You could say teams could dictate how the lawyers argue but from my understanding teams often stay out of that process and let the lawyers do their thing.

Stearns could very easily say hey, we want to win this but this, this and this are off limits in the argument.

In theory yes, but from my understanding teams are very hands off in this process. As stated in the article it's pretty common for the MLB lawyers to use off field stuff in these arb cases. This isn't Brewers vs Hader, it's MLB vs the players. Teams work together to keep player salaries lower and players work together to raise all player salaries.

[ReasonablySober]

That's not really a Stearns decision though. Teams outsource these cases to outside Lawyers as to not have to argue against their own player. You could say teams could dictate how the lawyers argue but from my understanding teams often stay out of that process and let the lawyers do their thing.

Stearns could very easily say hey, we want to win this but this, this and this are off limits in the argument.

In theory yes, but from my understanding teams are very hands off in this process. As stated in the article it's pretty common for the MLB lawyers to use off field stuff in these arb cases. This isn't Brewers vs Hader, it's MLB vs the players. Teams work together to keep player salaries lower and players work together to raise all player salaries.

It's individual teams vs the players. Hence "the belt":

According to a report from the Athletic, MLB awards a $20, WWE-style championship belt to the team that keeps salaries the lowest in arbitration. MLB told the Athletic that the belt is "an informal recognition of those club's salary arbitration departments that did the best."

[MVP2110]

Stearns could very easily say hey, we want to win this but this, this and this are off limits in the argument.

In theory yes, but from my understanding teams are very hands off in this process. As stated in the article it's pretty common for the MLB lawyers to use off field stuff in these arb cases. This isn't Brewers vs Hader, it's MLB vs the players. Teams work together to keep player salaries lower and players work together to raise all player salaries.

It's individual teams vs the players. Hence "the belt":

According to a report from the Athletic, MLB awards a $20, WWE-style championship belt to the team that keeps salaries the lowest in arbitration. MLB told the Athletic that the belt is "an informal recognition of those club's salary arbitration departments that did the best."

Each case might be individual but teams and agents all collude to discuss the best strategies. Teams all hire the same outside lawyers to represent them. Everyone is aware of what a new precedent does to the overall salary for players and how it compounds. People get caught up in the binary of specific team vs specific player arbitration when it's much more about the entire league vs all the players. The Burnes case wasn't just about a few hundred thousand for example. It's a very dumb system that should be overhauled because it just ends up angering players and the arbitrators who decide the cases are rarely baseball experts which is why old time statistics still dominant who wins and loses.

[Kerb Hohl]

In the end this is just a repeat of the Burnes situation. Was ruining your relationship with your best players worth the extra $750k-$1m? In this case it had a tangible effect on the field.

For a team on a budget like a Brewers, it was worth it. What was the tangible effect?

We argued this all of last offseason when it happened and literally nothing bad happened with the benefit of hindsight. He pitched the entire season and then we traded him as we would've anyways.

[ReasonablySober]

In the end this is just a repeat of the Burnes situation. Was ruining your relationship with your best players worth the extra $750k-$1m? In this case it had a tangible effect on the field.

For a team on a budget like a Brewers, it was worth it. What was the tangible effect?

Ignore the hypothetical and the dip in Burnes performance. The article lays out a very real, very tangible way that it screwed the Brewers with regards to Hader. We can talk about the trade working out because it led to Contreras, but Hader went from being a multi-inning guy who could be thrown at any time in the game to being three out only and only in tie or save situations. All over less than $1 million. Change Mark A. finds in his couch cushion.