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Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll

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Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#1 » by Sweezo » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:41 am

This is more or less just the start of a post to start a discussion about how to make this team better...

Bulltalk wrote:We HAVE to make a big trade, Sweezo. There's no way around it.


Truer word were never spoken. With the M's flailing at the plate, everyone knows the M's need to make a move to bolster the offense IF they want to have a chance to compete for the AL West title this year.

[1] How much talent are we willing to give up?
[2] How much payroll can we take on in 2011?
[3] How much would such a move affect the payroll in 2012?

The M’s payroll for 2010 is $ 94,623,191. Per Shanon Drayer, it looks like that might be as high as the payroll can/will go this year. Compounding the problem is the $6 million in potential bonuses Bedard alone is facing. The team could stand pat for the rest of the season and easily go over $100 million in payroll based solely on paying bonuses out to unexpected success stories [Bedard, Kennedy, etc.]. I was trying to put together a detailed list of M's salaries for '10/'11, but someone already beat me to it

The Mariners have $59,513,000 guaranteed to players in 2012, most of which is owed to Ichiro Suzuki, Felix Hernandez, Chone Figgins, and Franklin Gutierrez. Miguel Olivo, Dustin Ackley, and Brendan Ryan are also guaranteed money from Seattle in 2012. They have a seven arbitration-eligible players: Jack Cust, David Aardsma, Jason Vargas, Brandon League, Luis Rodriguez, Aaron Laffey, and Shawn Kelley. We could see many of these players non-tendered. Jack Wilson, Chris Ray, Erik Bedard, Jamey Wright, and Adam Kennedy are their only free agents.

Just by having the Bradley and Silva expenses off their books, the Mariners should have a lot of payroll flexibility in 2012. Even after arbitration raises to the players they do end up keeping, they should have at least $10-$20 million to play with. Their best pre-arb players (Smoak, Pineda, Ackley) are at least a year away from arbitration-eligibility, so they don't have to worry about a significant first-time arbitration raise this year. For the past 4 years they've operated at about $80-$90 million. They could continue to do so, though they pick second overall in the upcoming June rule 4 draft, so perhaps they'll scale their 2012 payroll back a bit to compensate for the cost of signing their 2nd overall pick.


I've seen conflicting reports about whether Fister or isn't arbitration eligible, which is a big deal. If he's eligible, he'll be making millions instead of thousands next year.

So, who might we target this year? How would that affect our ability to go after a Prince Fielder type next year? Here's a list of names I've seen pop up in blogs so far:

Hunter Pence: A player I have a lot of interest in as a trade target if the Astros wish to move him, he beat the house in arbitration last year. His .315 /.356/.490 certainly tops his .282/.325/.461 line from last year. Pence's talent level you don't get him for free in a trade, nor would the Astros seem interested in taking on much salary, and he may cost you $9-$10 million in salary next season.

Carlos Beltran: Currently makes $20 million per year, and the Mets are in an absolute financial mess at the moment w/ a $143 million payroll. Putting up a .278/.372/.480 and seems as healthy as he's been in years. I find it doubtful the Mets would want to absorb much salary in a trade either.

Ryan Ludwick: Makes $6.8million this year, a FA next year. Put up a .257/.323/.405 this year despite playing in Petco half the year [his OPS is a fair amount higher on the road]. The Padres salary has hovered around $40 million the past couple years...they are one cheap ass organization.

Luke Scott: Makes $6.4 million this year, arbitration eligible next year. With a .237/.318/.433 line [and 9 HR] he would be a decent upgrade at DH. Can play in the field but his UZR numbers have been in the red the past three seasons.

Casey Blake: Makes $5.5 million this year [and a $1.25 million buyouy next season?]; Put up a line of .250/.338/.406. A decent veteran on a team desperate to shed salary; Definitely an upgrade over Figgins, but his line looks pretty similar to what Kennedy has been providing us [although Kennedy seems to be wearing down]. No team is in a worse financial situation than the Dodgers.

Vlad Guerrero: Makes $8 million this year, then he's a free agent. A clear rental who, with a .282/.314/.388 line [including 6 home runs] would be a modest improvement at DH. Can't play the field, age and injury risk.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#2 » by Bulltalk » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:28 am

Nice thread. I have to ponder. :meditate:
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#3 » by Bulltalk » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:18 am

After tonight's loss, I'm thinking screw it. Who are we kidding? Nothing's going to happen until it's too late, if at all. That's our conservative ownership.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#4 » by Sweezo » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:20 am

Bulltalk wrote:After tonight's loss, I'm thinking screw it. Who are we kidding? Nothing's going to happen until it's too late, if at all. That's our conservative ownership.


TRANSLATION: I think we should look at trading pieces like Bedard and League who are presently at maximum value as it allows us to build towards 2012.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#5 » by Bulltalk » Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:25 am

Sweezo wrote:
Bulltalk wrote:After tonight's loss, I'm thinking screw it. Who are we kidding? Nothing's going to happen until it's too late, if at all. That's our conservative ownership.


TRANSLATION: I think we should look at trading pieces like Bedard and League who are presently at maximum value as it allows us to build towards 2012.


Paul Allen is the owner of the wrong team in Seattle. God if we only had his money to throw around without a CAP. :lol:
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#6 » by TTown » Fri Jul 8, 2011 5:38 pm

http://www.proballnw.com/07-2011/does-a ... ro+Ball+NW)&utm_content=ESPN

Basically, Houston's Hunter Pence for a bundle of prospects. I wouldn't want to give Franklin up (nor does the author), but we'd probably have to give up some good ones, you have to give quality to get quality.

I... would do it. He's under team control until 2013, even if we don't contend this year he gives us a quality bat for a couple years.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#7 » by jumanji » Fri Jul 8, 2011 7:12 pm

TTown wrote:http://www.proballnw.com/07-2011/does-a-hunter-pence-deal-befit-the-mariners/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+ProBallNw+(Pro+Ball+NW)&utm_content=ESPN

Basically, Houston's Hunter Pence for a bundle of prospects. I wouldn't want to give Franklin up (nor does the author), but we'd probably have to give up some good ones, you have to give quality to get quality.

I... would do it. He's under team control until 2013, even if we don't contend this year he gives us a quality bat for a couple years.



Would love Pence and i'd play him in right also, so infer what you would like into that comment. It would probably take a package of one starter not named Felix or Michael, a Halman or a Peguero and maybe as you mentioned a Franklin. Sign me up.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#8 » by Bay_Areas_Finest » Fri Jul 8, 2011 7:23 pm

Pence is a stud. I'd definitely take him.

Any non Pineda/Felix starter + Peguero + Saunders + Whatever else.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#9 » by sharkz » Sat Jul 9, 2011 2:13 am

Pence isnt gonna come cheap, young quality hitters like him arent exactly growing on trees. Still, I would probably at least think about a deal like this. I think we have all become desperate for anything that can save us from having to watch a certain Carlos Angel Peguero.

If we have to give up Pineda though then no thanks, but Peguero/Saunders and maybe a starter should get the Astros to think. And if we do fall out of contention I guess we could always flip Pence for new prospects again in 2012.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#10 » by Sweezo » Sat Jul 9, 2011 7:28 am

Trading Franklin is a tough call. We have very little in the way of SS prospects and Ryan's a decent stopgap but not what I envision as the long term solution to the position. I know you have to give something to get something, but it's hard for me to pull that trigger.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#11 » by TTown » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:17 am

Felix, Pineda, Ackley.

Smoak, Ichiro.

The first line I would consider untouchable, as would we all, I would think.

The second line consists of a young player I certainly haven't given up on despite his sagging numbers, and would have to be floored by a trade to get rid of. The second is someone I think most of us would like to trade to help rebuild, but management would never allow.

I think everyone else in the organization is fair game in a trade, though. Am I forgetting anyone? The more I think about it, the more I think this 5-game slide we're on might have been a big blessing in disguise to dissuade the front office from trying to contend this year. We really need a lot of help. We're 7.5 out now with a BRUTAL Texas/AL East swing coming up, I'd really love to start dealing ASAP.

Boston's starting pitching is in incredibly poor health. If Bedard comes back strong, I really think we could pick a solid bat off of them. Hell, their rotation is in such shambles I think we could get decent return for Fister or Vargas. Detroit needs help behind Verlander.

Who needs an All Star closer?

We also seem to have an abundance of infielders we don't start (Wilson, Kennedy) that could at least bring back something.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#12 » by Sweezo » Mon Jul 18, 2011 8:11 pm

TTown wrote:The more I think about it, the more I think this 5-game slide we're on might have been a big blessing in disguise to dissuade the front office from trying to contend this year. We really need a lot of help. We're 7.5 out now with a BRUTAL Texas/AL East swing coming up, I'd really love to start dealing ASAP.


Ugh. We're now 11.5 and it's an event when this team scores a run.

How far does the slide go? Does this offense end up looking so bad that adding a guy like Hunter Pence [i.e. only under team control for the next 1-2 years] becomes less attractive? Do you use your best trade pieces to contend for 2012 or do we suddenly look so **** we need to look more towards 2013 [i.e. when Ichiro's contract is up]?
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#13 » by TTown » Mon Jul 18, 2011 10:01 pm

Sweezo wrote:
TTown wrote:The more I think about it, the more I think this 5-game slide we're on might have been a big blessing in disguise to dissuade the front office from trying to contend this year. We really need a lot of help. We're 7.5 out now with a BRUTAL Texas/AL East swing coming up, I'd really love to start dealing ASAP.


Ugh. We're now 11.5 and it's an event when this team scores a run.

How far does the slide go? Does this offense end up looking so bad that adding a guy like Hunter Pence [i.e. only under team control for the next 1-2 years] becomes less attractive? Do you use your best trade pieces to contend for 2012 or do we suddenly look so **** we need to look more towards 2013 [i.e. when Ichiro's contract is up]?


All great questions, and all things our front office will need to answer before we decide how vigorous we want to pursue some guys at the winter meetings later this year.

In theory, we could return our entire stellar starting staff next year, and that includes Bedard, if we're not able to deal him by the end of the month. Young guys like Smoak and Pineda and Ackley would have a year (or most of one) under their belts. Having great starting pitching + an All Star closer would lead me (personally) to want to try to contend in 2012. So adding a guy like Hunter Pence now would make a lot of sense. I mean, if we do go after Prince Fielder, all we'd really have to do was try to figure out what we're going to go with at 3B.

That said, if you're not of the opinion we can contend in 2012, going after spendy vets obviously isn't the solution.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#14 » by Mr Swagtastic » Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:01 pm

Sorry guys in advance if this is the wrong place to post this. What would it take from Toronto to get Franklin Guiteriez? Obviously JP Arencibia or Travis d'Arnaud (depending on which catcher is moved) Jose Bautista, Rickey Romero, Brendon Morrow and Lowrie are off limits right now.

Our farm system is one of the best in baseball and can help the rebuilding process if needed with your team.

I think Franklin would fit in Toronto quite well and I think is one of the if not the best defensive CF in all of baseball.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#15 » by Sweezo » Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:30 pm

Mr Swagtastic wrote:Sorry guys in advance if this is the wrong place to post this. What would it take from Toronto to get Franklin Guiteriez? Obviously JP Arencibia or Travis d'Arnaud (depending on which catcher is moved) Jose Bautista, Rickey Romero, Brendon Morrow and Lowrie are off limits right now.

Our farm system is one of the best in baseball and can help the rebuilding process if needed with your team.

I think Franklin would fit in Toronto quite well and I think is one of the if not the best defensive CF in all of baseball.


I guess the question is: Why would you want him? His defensive range in CF is quite possibly the best in the game, but don't you already have some decent speed in the OF? Perhaps your team is better equipped offensively to handle his offensive woes...

Since he first started having intestinal issues last year Guti's been in a bit of a freefall offense. He doesn't look as 'fit' as he once did, his strike recognition seems off, and he lacks the power he once had to hit the ball with a little authority.

If you have any decent offensive prospects to offer, especially at OF/C/SS/3B, I'd be interested. I don't know if the M's or Blue Jays would be, but I sure would. ;)
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#16 » by TTown » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:16 am

Cinci interested in Chone Figgins, reportedly.

http://danny-knobler.blogs.cbssports.co ... 6/30717444

lol
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#17 » by ORL_4LIFE » Wed Jul 20, 2011 2:49 am

man, that's desperate.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#18 » by Sweezo » Wed Jul 20, 2011 3:39 am

You'd think after scoring 5 runs in the first two innings they would have this one in the bag...but no. No, they had to blow the lead, slowly bleed out over the course of 14 innings, and then lose because they can't hold a goddamn runner in first base. Ten losses in a row. TEN.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#19 » by jumanji » Wed Jul 20, 2011 4:29 am

TTown wrote:Cinci interested in Chone Figgins, reportedly.

http://danny-knobler.blogs.cbssports.co ... 6/30717444

lol



Put him in a deal with League for Devin Meseraco.
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Re: Trades in 2011 and the 2012 payroll 

Post#20 » by TTown » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:15 am

I would send Figgins to Cinci and I would pay 100% of his salary. I want him cut.

Top 8, tied game, runners at the corners, 2 outs. Figgins at first. Carp up at the plate.

Figgins gets picked off.

PICKED OFF with the tying run 90 feet away.

He's so horrible it's like his awfulness is an all-consuming dying star, and it sucks up everything into its mass. I want him gone. I don't care how, or how much it costs a bunch of suits in the front office who don't give a damn anyway. If we have to sit there and watch a bad product, I want it slightly less bad with him out of town.

He might be my least favorite Mariner, ever.
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