Spring Training Thread

[Sweezo]

So far so good if you like victories that don't count in the standings. Not so good if you like your pitchers healthy and able to contribute.

[1] The whole Smoak/Cano thing: Has there been a more frustrating player than Smoak if you are an M's fan? Whenever he fails, he does enough for me to write him off. Then he succeeds just enough to make me wonder if--despite not having the same skill set as a Chris Davis--he might one day just have it *click* and be a decent player.

I don't know how much influence one guy can have, but I'm pleased with how Cano's handling himself. It sounds like he's trying to set a tone early as a positive influence on the ball club, and he's gone out of his way to praise Smoak and work with him on some things in the batting cages.

How much does that matter? Who knows? But Smoak's been hitting with some power the other way as a right-handed hitter. He's also been doing it early in games against real MLB players instead of guys fighting for roster spots.

How much can it help the young guys who struggled to carry the team when expected to do so to have a star 2B who doesn't mind having those expectations? It's hard to get much from the radio and .gif clips but Smoak/Ackley seem comfortable.

Cano looks great. His swing is pure and his timing looks like it's already there.

[2] Morrison: If they don't sign Morales because they believe in Morrison...I really won't be that upset. I like Kendrys but his price tag seems high for a guy that can't really play in the field. Morrison can hit if he's healthy, so keep him healthy.

Also, I'm currently watching Carter Capps load the bases by plunking a guy in the back.

[3] SP: The bad news is Iwakuma and Walker are both expected to be out before the season starts. So if the season started now, who starts? Felix/Baker/Paxton/Ramirez/Beavan? That's...terrifying.

The good news is Baker was hitting 91 mph today on his fastball.

Ervin Santana is just sitting there. Maybe you don't want him for four years if you can avoid it, but can you afford to go into the season with the five guys I mentioned above? Our margin for error is slow slim. Can you risk a deficit before May rolls around?

[4] Franklin/Miller: Franklin hit a 2 run bomb yesterday and Miller's searching for his first hit. So this is a neat little problem the M's could have on their hands. Was this supposed to be a legit battle for SS or an attempt to raise Franklin's trade value by putting him in the mix as a SS? What do you do if Miller struggles and Franklin rakes?

[Bulltalk]

A couple of thoughts:

1) I will NOT buy into any Mariners hype until at least June 1st. They've got to prove it to me. I am punch-drunk, cynical and despondent as a fan from 10+ years of ineptitude and futility.

2) In spite of Franklin's late season hitting swoon, I trust this guy as a hitter more than Ackley, Smoak, Miller, Montero, or Saunders. I could be wrong about this, but he just strikes me as a guy who has strong self belief in this way. I've grown tired of the young M's fragile mentalities as hitters.

3) If it's a question of money as concerns the M's getting another veteran starter, then I'll hate the FO if that stands in the way of getting one.

4) I'm back and forth on K. Morales. If we weren't heavier at the DH/1B position than almost any other position other than 2nd base, then I'd no doubt want him back. I want an outfielder or starting pitcher more, however.

5) I do like McClendon so far.

Anyway...

[Sweezo]

2) In spite of Franklin's late season hitting swoon, I trust this guy as a hitter more than Ackley, Smoak, Miller, Montero, or Saunders. I could be wrong about this, but he just strikes me as a guy who has strong self belief in this way. I've grown tired of the young M's fragile mentalities as hitters.

I love his talent as a hitter. He struggled once teams adjusted to him but I think he can adjust in turn.

3) If it's a question of money as concerns the M's getting another veteran starter, then I'll hate the FO if that stands in the way of getting one.

I get not being keen on spending $50 million for 4 years worth of Ervin Santana, whether it's the M's or any other MLB team. But at this point can you quibble over a couple million? Even if the starters we have currently look good in the spring, can you really risk it?

Maybe it's a moot point if they trade Nick Franklin for one of the better young starters from the NY Mets. But they've got to do something.

Looking at the list of free agents SP available that anyone's actually heard of?

Ervin Santana [expensive]
Jair Jurrens [injuries/declining]
Jeff Niemann [injuries]
Jeff Karstens [injuries]
Johan Santana [injuries]
Joe Saunders [garbage]
Barry Zito [taking a year off]
Jon Garland [taking a year off]
Clayton Richard [injuries]
Jason Marquis [injuries]

Many of those somewhat notable names aren't even remotely an option to help a team now due to injuries. Santana and Joe Saunders are the only ones who are healthy and probably could be ready by the beginning of the season. You either have to overpay for Santana or you have to trade for help.

4) I'm back and forth on K. Morales. If we weren't heavier at the DH/1B position than almost any other position other than 2nd base, then I'd no doubt want him back. I want an outfielder or starting pitcher more, however.

Right. Get an OF, and then Hart's the full-time DH without much question I imagine. Eliminates the need for Morales.

Even at OF, I think we can survive with what we have if no opportunities for a legit upgrade present themselves [although if/when we get murdered against LHP I reserve the right to change my mind]. But SP? Not seeing it.

5) I do like McClendon so far.

Same here. So far, I like his approach and what I'm hearing about Howard Johnson's approach to working with the hitters. Wedge was **** worthless, and Hargrove not much better. But that's not Lloyd's fault, and just because he's had a shot elsewhere doesn't mean I should peg him as a retread and not give him a chance. Working with Jim Leyland might have been great for him.

[Sweezo]

Another good day for Ackley, hitting a single the other way and driving a home run to center field.

[TTown]

i believe in ackley as a pure hitter much more than smoak, so i'm more inclined to get excited about a possible ackley resurgence. i remember this time last year thinking this is the year! when smoak dominated the spring... blah.

cano came out today and said the organization needs another right handed bat. we'll see how quickly Z hits the phone now that cano has come out and made a public statement.

is scott baker going to start game #2 this year? holy shoulder strains batman, let's not lose anybody else, right? ... is jeff samardzija still available?

[BayAreaMadSkill]

cano came out today and said the organization needs another right handed bat. we'll see how quickly Z hits the phone now that cano has come out and made a public statement.

Well, he definitely isn't lying. We for sure need another bat.

For me, EVERYBODY on our roster sucks except for Felix, Kuma, Cano, and maybe Nick Franklin. Everybody else is garbage. I dont care if Smoak hits 1.000 in spring training and Ackley leads the league in HR and doubles in spring training....They all suck until they prove something in the regular season lol. The Mariners have made me very cynical lol.

[Bulltalk]

Outside of packaging Franklin and some other players/prospects for a need (hitter/starting pitcher), our fortunes for the year is starting to look like whether or not the ownership/management is going to spend beyond their perceived means now. We're at about a 95 million payroll now. From what I can gather from the internet, these are the projected team payrolls for our division (mind you, these figures are still in flux, correct me if I'm wrong):

--Angels (149 million)
--Rangers (131 million)
--Mariners (95 million)
--Athletics (80 million)
--Astros (50 million)

Now first off, the Astros don't count. They're an outlier team as of now. The A's also just don't have the revenue stream that we enjoy with our new TV deal, better mony-making park, etc... Now if you average the Angels and Rangers team payroll together you get about 140 million on average. What's splitting the difference between our team payroll at present and the average of the Angels and Rangers team payrolls for 2014? Answer: 117.5 million.

In other words, if we added 22.5 million in payroll from where we are at now, then our team payroll for this year would be halfway between the average of the Angels and Rangers team payrolls for 2014 and where our payroll at present now stands (approximately).

So, what could we get if we did this, if management was allowed to spend this money? Could 22.5 million more get us both Morales and Santana? Probably close to it.

I don't know. I guess I'm back to where I almost always end up. Staring at ownership/management at being either too cheap, or being poor spenders of their money when they choose to do so.

No, I don't think the M's should open up the franchise's wallet and foolishly spend money. Spending money in and of itself doesn't guarantee team success.

But almost everyone I read is in agreement that the M's are short a vet starting pitcher and another productive veteran bat. If money is the only thing standing in the way of amending this situation, then how am I not to be upset with ownership/management now?

It's not the fans fault that they've spent their money poorly in some cases in the last decade, and it's not the fans fault that attendance has been crashing downward in recent years, and thus the team losing a larger percentage of the franchise's revenue stream that they enjoyed in more successful times.

If the ownership wants to turn around this state of affairs, don't they have to take some greater investment risk here? It's hard not to think that they owe as much to the fans upon whom the fortunes of the franchise depends.

[nuke the whales]

cano came out today and said the organization needs another right handed bat. we'll see how quickly Z hits the phone now that cano has come out and made a public statement.

Well, he definitely isn't lying. We for sure need another bat.

For me, EVERYBODY on our roster sucks except for Felix, Kuma, Cano, and maybe Nick Franklin. Everybody else is garbage. I dont care if Smoak hits 1.000 in spring training and Ackley leads the league in HR and doubles in spring training....They all suck until they prove something in the regular season lol. The Mariners have made me very cynical lol.

Replace maybe Franklin with Seager and I agree with you.

[Sweezo]

Almonte isn't hitting but he's shown the ability to get on base, create on the base paths, and has made some good defensive plays. He doesn't appear to be in contention for a roster spot...he appears to be in contention for the starting CF spot. He and James Jones have the most at bats among players so far. Lloyd's made mention of the importance of OF defense. Might he give a spot to those two who might struggle at the plate but offer good defense and good speed on the base paths? Michael Saunders just isn't getting that many at bats, and he's not a guy like Kyle Seager that's been so good that he's lock for a starting spot regardless of how much time he gets in the spring. What would it take for him to be the odd man out? Could he find himself traded?

Miller made a damn good play at SS to save a run today. I hope he can contribute with the bat this season because he's just fun to watch.

Zunino smacked a couple doubles today, one deep the other way and the other pulled down the LF line.

In other words, if we added 22.5 million in payroll from where we are at now, then our team payroll for this year would be halfway between the average of the Angels and Rangers team payrolls for 2014 and where our payroll at present now stands (approximately).

So, what could we get if we did this, if management was allowed to spend this money? Could 22.5 million more get us both Morales and Santana? Probably close to it.

I don't know. I guess I'm back to where I almost always end up. Staring at ownership/management at being either too cheap, or being poor spenders of their money when they choose to do so.

No, I don't think the M's should open up the franchise's wallet and foolishly spend money. Spending money in and of itself doesn't guarantee team success.

But almost everyone I read is in agreement that the M's are short a vet starting pitcher and another productive veteran bat. If money is the only thing standing in the way of amending this situation, then how am I not to be upset with ownership/management now?

It's really a shame the M's weren't able to get a mid-rotation starting pitcher when those guys went early in free agency. Kind of an odd offseason as the big names went late and the bargains were found early on.

I don't buy the articles saying that the M's are out of money. That idea was floated in the media right after Cano signed, and yet they still added Rodney. FWIW Jason Churchill maintains the M's still want to sign Morales. He also seems to think there's some interest in Santana...just not enough.

Which I get. It's easy for me to scan the list of free agent SP and see one guy stick out like a sore thumb. But Ervin Santana's not that great. Good numbers last year, but he's a flyball pitcher who lead the league in HR allowed two seasons prior. He's inconsistent and I'm not crazy with paying him like an ace.

When guys like Scott Kazmir and Bartolo Colon were available? That's when the M's probably needed to make their move.

[Bulltalk]

^^^I'm with you on the cheaper SP's that were available early on. Bartolo Colon? Why not get him for a couple of years? If it didn't work out, if he was a 5th starter by the numbers rather than a 3rd starter, well maybe someone in the 4th or the 5th spot would have stepped up. Point being, cover your arse when you have the chance to.

[TTown]

... another week... no news...

rumors, but nothing else. how legit of a position battle is miller vs. franklin? i can't tell if we just haven't received the right offer for franklin, or if the organization is still trying to figure out if he can play short.

[Sweezo]

... another week... no news...

rumors, but nothing else. how legit of a position battle is miller vs. franklin? i can't tell if we just haven't received the right offer for franklin, or if the organization is still trying to figure out if he can play short.

I think Miller's got in the bag. Offensively, they've mirrored each other. But defensively, Miller's made tough plays and Franklin's shown he lacks the range to make less difficult plays.

As for other moves...other than Morales, what's left? The starting pitcher market is barren. The team announced Beavan is starting [tomorrow?] while Erasmo is going to come on in relief of Felix. That doesn't mean a ton but oh good God do I not want to see Beavan start over Erasmo Ramirez.

Smoak's already turning into hot ****. It's really tough watching him hit after Cano. Cano's swing looks so effortless...smooth, not a lot of moving parts. Then Smoak comes up with his shoulder and knee flying open, his back heel pivoting in the dirt. His warning track power was on full display tonight.

He's lucky Montero and his absolutely horrific defense aren't a threat to him at 1B [although Jesus just killed a pitch for a double to LF]. Thank God for Morrison. His role might not be clear right now but if Smoak struggles and Montero rakes at AAA, we might have options at 1B/DH. I'd feel a lot better with Morales in tow.

[TTown]

nick franklin is 6'1 and decent athlete. who's up for trotting him out at 1B tomorrow?

cano 14/23 (.609)
ackley 14/31 (.452)

it's going to be so fun watching a real hitter in this line-up this year. but ackley... more of this, please.

montero is actually hitting pretty well this spring. too bad he can't play the position.

[Bulltalk]

Smoak pretty much has to come back from the dead for me, and be consistent for a whole season in doing so. He's either a 1Bman or a DH, two positions that you want somebody who can hit. If Smoak starts on opening day, he better be hitting 6th or 7th, not 4th or 5th. He doesn't warrant the 4 or the 5 hole.

[Bulltalk]

I don't know if I'll ever trust the M's until we get new ownership and upper management. They're just too incompetent, cheap, and uninspiring as a collective unit.

You know it's really horrible when your team's ownership and upper management sucks in these ways. It can just keep a dark cloud over a franchise for years upon years. You feel so helpless and destitute as a fan. You sit there looking at it knowing that the franchise needs change in this way, yet it never happens.

[Sweezo]

Smoak pretty much has to come back from the dead for me, and be consistent for a whole season in doing so. He's either a 1Bman or a DH, two positions that you want somebody who can hit. If Smoak starts on opening day, he better be hitting 6th or 7th, not 4th or 5th. He doesn't warrant the 4 or the 5 hole.

Consistency. What a loaded word. And it's pretty much everything when it comes to Smoak. I remember at one point last season he was rolling. At the All-Star Break he had a .272 /.372/.431 line. That was a healthy enough sample size that it might mean something. The power wasn't really there but he was getting hits and getting on base at a high level. If he'd maintained that he would have finished 7th in the league among qualifying 1B at OBP.

And then he took a nose dive in the second half. Strangely, he hit more home runs [12] in the second half than he did [8] in the first half in a fewer at bats. With that, you'd expect his SLG% would spike but it didn't it. He hit more home runs but fewer doubles.

I may not agree with naming Smoak the starting 1B, but I think the M's have the right idea with Smoak in terms of what they think he might be able to do. The comments about Smoak being able to lead the league in doubles make sense. Not that I think he will lead the league in doubles, but Smoak's never going to be a big home run guy. When he tries to be every other part of his game seems to suffer. If he gets on base at a high clip, hits doubles, and provides good defense at 1B then he's a valuable piece.

He may be able to pull his career out of the dumpster like Chris Davis, but he''ll have taken very different routes to get there.

As for his spot in the batting order, hitting behind Cano is an odd idea. If he's hitting and getting on base at the same clip he was in early '13, then he's miscast as the guy who's going to drive people in. I'd suggest hitting him 2nd...?

[Sweezo]

This is something...

The Mariners' search for rotation candidates has added a new name with the emergence of Roenis Elias, a 25-year-old left-hander who will start Sunday's 1:05 p.m. PT Cactus League game against the Angels in Tempe.

Elias, who defected from Cuba in 2010, was a Southern League All-Star for Double-A Jackson last season when he went 6-11 with a 3.18 ERA and struck out 121 batters in 130 innings.

The youngster has quietly impressed the Mariners with his performance this spring and is 2-0 with a 1.23 ERA over 7 1/3 innings over three relief appearances, including three scoreless frames against the Angels on Tuesday.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20140315&content_id=69382476&notebook_id=69382480&vkey=notebook_sea&c_id=sea

I hadn't heard of Elias before, and can't say that I've paid any attention to what he's done so far this spring. He's not giving up runs but he's also walking more guys than he strikes out, and appears to be relying on flyable outs

It would be a stretch to say I am completely satisfied with how the front office/ownership has approached this offseason. All I needed was one more player--either a difference making OF or SP--to come away more or less satisfied. That didn't happen.

However, I'm not completely dissatisfied either. Jack's made no secret of the fact that the team's had trade offers that aren't bad but they decided to wait on. They chose to wait and see what they had in terms of SP options even when Iwakuma and Walker went down with injury. So far, Baker and Wolf have looked serviceable. Erasmo Ramirez and Paxton have been keeping the ball on the ground. Maybe they also have something in Elias?

A healthy rotation of Felix/Iwakuma/Walker/Paxton/Ramirez could be pretty damn good. Baker and Wolf can hopefully bridge the gap for a couple weeks. The infield defense with Miller/Cano up the middle looks very good.

Signing Willie Bloomquist wasn't a collossal mistake, but if Franklin can play SS/2B capably [and presumably 3B as well], I wish we could run with him as the utility IF. Go with a 12 man pitching staff, keep Stefen Romero as a reserve OF/RH bat, and let's see what they can do.

[TTown]

i hadn't really been following elias either, but he sure dominated the angels today. 95 mph lefty. definitely one to keep an eye on.

[Sweezo]

i hadn't really been following elias either, but he sure dominated the angels today. 95 mph lefty. definitely one to keep an eye on.

I'm encouraged by the possibilities of the pitching staff, specifically concerning the starting rotation. With Felix, we have that one true ace that we don't need to worry about. Behind him?

Iwakuma has his splint off and is working on gripping a ball. I don't expect him back by the start of the season, but I think he might be back by the end of April. Taijuan Walker's also been throwing bullpen sessions and could be back around the same time.

Until they get back? Maybe this is Erasmo Ramirez's chance to shine. He's healthy, showing great control, and has been as unhittable as any pitcher the M's have right now. He's racked up 14 K's in

Paxton's picking up right where he left off last season.

Elias? Play it safe, and stick him in AAA. If he continues being effective, perhaps he serves as good mid-season depth if a starter struggles or is dealing with an injury.

Randy Wolf and Scott Baker aren't the type of guys the old M's relied on to give them a whole season. This year, I think they only need to give us about a month. 4-5 starts each. If we can get to May with Baker/Wolf pitching as league average starters, then perhaps we can turn Felix/Iwakuma/Walker/Ramirez/Paxton loose.

[TTown]

remember when i asked if miller and franklin was a legit position battle? miller is going nuts this spring!

i know, i know, it's just spring training... but anyone else worried about corey hart?